Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

  • I am a Universalist. All will eventually be saved by God's grace.

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frumanchu

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Look at the quote you provided.

According to this quote those who have been justified can lose their faith. So my question is what happens to those who have been justified but do not renew their faith?

You assume a different definition of "renew" than what's intended. Perhaps you've never had to renew a library book ;)
 
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frumanchu

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Yes that’s the ONLY way apostasy can happen. Unbelievers cannot apostatize.

Ummm.....

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19
 
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Albion

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It just occurred to me that if some of the assembly of Ekklesia (saved ones) did not fall away, there would not be an apostasy mentioned, right ?

Yes that’s the ONLY way apostasy can happen. Unbelievers cannot apostatize.

The ekklesia is made up of both wheat and tares. It's only the "invisible church," i.e. the total of all true believers from all times and denominations that would be free of the tares.

Nevertheless, it would seem that some members of the ekklesia could apostatize without there being a universal apostasy of the kind that some people think occurred with the church of Christ at some point in the past or could yet occur. We do speak of even one person who was a believer but then renounced Christ altogether as having apostatized.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You assume a different definition of "renew" than what's intended. Perhaps you've never had to renew a library book ;)

Renewing a library book lending agreement is a very bad analogy compared to renewing faith. You renew a library book because there is a preconceived expiration date of the lending agreement. Faith has no preconceived expiration date. So it’s a different situation all together. So I’ll ask my question again. What happens if a person who has been justified does not renew his faith? Is he still justified without it?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Ummm.....

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19

Yes the antichrists (those who lie about God) were not of them. This has nothing to do with everyone who falls away from faith. John was speaking about a particular group of people who were lying about God.
 
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frumanchu

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Renewing a library book lending agreement is a very bad analogy compared to renewing faith. You renew a library book because there is a preconceived expiration date of the lending agreement. Faith has no preconceived expiration date. So it’s a different situation all together. So I’ll ask my question again. What happens if a person who has been justified does not renew his faith? Is he still justified without it?

You missed my point, friend. The analogy was intended to point to the fact that one is still in possession of the book when it is renewed. You presume that "renew" can only mean it no longer exists and must be recreated. Because faith is the instrumental cause of our justification, as long as it exists that justification is still a reality. We are positionally in Christ, and His righteousness is imputed to us. And again, with that comes the indwelling of the Spirit Who will not let us fall fully or finally away but will convict us and ultimately efficaciously urge us to repentance. You seem to doubt that the Holy Spirit has any such ability or willingness.
 
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frumanchu

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Yes the antichrists (those who lie about God) were not of them. This has nothing to do with everyone who falls away from faith. John was speaking about a particular group of people who were lying about God.

How conveniently selective! Apparently there's a special class of human that reveals not possessing the faith they profess by their apostasy, whereas nobody else is apparently subject to that circumstance. Good to know </s>
 
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FreeGrace2

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Renewing a library book lending agreement is a very bad analogy compared to renewing faith. You renew a library book because there is a preconceived expiration date of the lending agreement. Faith has no preconceived expiration date. So it’s a different situation all together. So I’ll ask my question again. What happens if a person who has been justified does not renew his faith? Is he still justified without it?
Could you quote any verse that says faith must be renewed, for any reason? I don't think you can.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You missed my point, friend. The analogy was intended to point to the fact that one is still in possession of the book when it is renewed. You presume that "renew" can only mean it no longer exists and must be recreated. Because faith is the instrumental cause of our justification, as long as it exists that justification is still a reality. We are positionally in Christ, and His righteousness is imputed to us. And again, with that comes the indwelling of the Spirit Who will not let us fall fully or finally away but will convict us and ultimately efficaciously urge us to repentance. You seem to doubt that the Holy Spirit has any such ability or willingness.

First of all it’s not the book that is renewed its the lender agreement. If the lender agreement is not renewed the book still remains a book regardless. So if this was your point then it contradicts the quote you gave.

God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified:(o) and although they can never fall from the state of justification;(p) yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.(q)

So your point is that the book remains regardless of the renewal then renewal is not necessary and the person will “have the light of His (God’s) countenance restored unto them“ regardless of whether or not he renews his faith? So now your argument doesn’t support the quote you gave to begin with. Your quote said


God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified:(o) and although they can never fall from the state of justification;(p) yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, UNTIL they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.
 
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BNR32FAN

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And again, with that comes the indwelling of the Spirit Who will not let us fall fully or finally away but will convict us and ultimately efficaciously urge us to repentance. You seem to doubt that the Holy Spirit has any such ability or willingness.

Where do the scriptures say that the Holy Spirit will not allow us to fully or finally fall away? Ephesians 4:30? I hope that’s not the verse your referring to because Paul is saying quite the opposite in that passage. The first word in chapter 5 is “Therefore” so you might want to keep reading and see what Paul still has to add to his message at the end of chapter 4.

No I wouldn’t say the Holy Spirit is incapable of keeping us from falling away but I would say that He will not intervene with our free will and force someone to remain faithful. The Holy Spirit is like a compass always pointing the way towards God. He does not steer the boat. If we refuse to follow His guidance we will find ourselves way off course.
 
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Hammster

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Where do the scriptures say that the Holy Spirit will not allow us to fully or finally fall away? Ephesians 4:30? I hope that’s not the verse your referring to because Paul is saying quite the opposite in that passage. The first word in chapter 5 is “Therefore” so you might want to keep reading and see what Paul still has to add to his message at the end of chapter 4.

No I wouldn’t say the Holy Spirit is incapable of keeping us from falling away but I would say that He will not intervene with our free will and force someone to remain faithful. The Holy Spirit is like a compass always pointing the way towards God. He does not steer the boat. If we refuse to follow His guidance we will find ourselves way off course.
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
— Romans 5:9-10
 
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frumanchu

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First of all it’s not the book that is renewed its the lender agreement. If the lender agreement is not renewed the book still remains a book regardless. So if this was your point then it contradicts the quote you gave.

And yet in common language we all say that we "need to renew our library books." Obviously this analogy didn't successfully convey to you the intended point. Remind me not to refer to a "sunrise" to make a point :)

So your point is that the book remains regardless of the renewal then renewal is not necessary and the person will “have the light of His (God’s) countenance restored unto them“ regardless of whether or not he renews his faith? So now your argument doesn’t support the quote you gave to begin with. Your quote said

Let me say this again: You presume that "renew" can only mean it no longer exists and must be recreated. I already implicitly stated that I disagreed with that presumption, so let me state it explicitly: I disagree with that presumption.

The quote I provided was from the Westminster Confession of Faith, which confession includes an entire section on perseverance in faith for the believer. So obviously the quote I provided does not support the notion that such renewal of faith means that faith was lost, void or otherwise invalidated the person's justification in Christ. Now, you may disagree with that (and you obviously do), but I'm not going to argue with you about what the WCF states in this case because it's pretty self-explanatory in this respect.
 
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frumanchu

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No I wouldn’t say the Holy Spirit is incapable of keeping us from falling away but I would say that He will not intervene with our free will and force someone to remain faithful. The Holy Spirit is like a compass always pointing the way towards God. He does not steer the boat. If we refuse to follow His guidance we will find ourselves way off course.

It's a real bummer to see the Spirit take such a passive approach after all He's done in earlier redemptive history. But when your theology seeks to elevate man's will above God's, I guess that's a necessary thing.
 
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BNR32FAN

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And yet in common language we all say that we "need to renew our library books." Obviously this analogy didn't successfully convey to you the intended point. Remind me not to refer to a "sunrise" to make a point :)



Let me say this again: You presume that "renew" can only mean it no longer exists and must be recreated. I already implicitly stated that I disagreed with that presumption, so let me state it explicitly: I disagree with that presumption.

The quote I provided was from the Westminster Confession of Faith, which confession includes an entire section on perseverance in faith for the believer. So obviously the quote I provided does not support the notion that such renewal of faith means that faith was lost, void or otherwise invalidated the person's justification in Christ. Now, you may disagree with that (and you obviously do), but I'm not going to argue with you about what the WCF states in this case because it's pretty self-explanatory in this respect.

May God richly bless you my fellow brother in Christ.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It's a real bummer to see the Spirit take such a passive approach after all He's done in earlier redemptive history. But when your theology seeks to elevate man's will above God's, I guess that's a necessary thing.

What are your thoughts on this passage my friend?


“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬
Romans 2:4-8 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart y | New American Standard Bible (NASB) | Download The Bible App Now
 
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frumanchu

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May God richly bless you my fellow brother in Christ.

And you as well. Know that I speak from zeal, and I apologize if my words come through as combative. I tend to be blunt and sarcastic at time ;)
 
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frumanchu

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What are your thoughts on this passage my friend?

In their context, Paul is laying forth the universal sinfulness of all mankind as a prelude to the good news of the Gospel. He proceeds after this to explain how the Jews who have the Law are just as much under condemnation as the Gentiles who do not have it.
 
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BNR32FAN

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And you as well. Know that I speak from zeal, and I apologize if my words come through as combative. I tend to be blunt and sarcastic at time ;)

Same here brother, I’m confident that your intention is to serve The Lord just as much as mine is. May God bless us both with understanding of His word the way He intended it.
 
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BNR32FAN

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In their context, Paul is laying forth the universal sinfulness of all mankind as a prelude to the good news of the Gospel. He proceeds after this to explain how the Jews who have the Law are just as much under condemnation as the Gentiles who do not have it.

But did you notice that the very same people whom God was being patient and kind towards leading them to repentance were storing up wrath for themselves on judgement day because of their stubbornness and unrepentant heart? The very same people who have received God’s grace leading them to repentance are still unrepentant because of their stubbornness.
 
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frumanchu

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But did you notice that the very same people whom God was being patient and kind towards leading them to repentance were storing up wrath for themselves on judgement day because of their stubbornness and unrepentant heart? The very same people who have received God’s grace leading them to repentance are still unrepentant because of their stubbornness.

Just so I'm clear, Romans 2:2-4 applies to saved people...but Romans 7:15-23 applies to unsaved people. Do I have that right?
 
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