The seven kings of Revelation 17:10

Douggg said:

It just means the person will come out of the gentile nations. It does not mean that he will not be a Jew.

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The Zealots, Siccarri, Galileans and Idumeans who trampled Jerusalem for 42 months were called savage beasts, locusts and were described as dressing like women. They let their hair grow long, slipped up against Jews in the street and knifed them.. They were called "Gentiles".

Douggg said:

Their victims wishing to die, but couldn't ? It is a five month period.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
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The issue is whether the arch villain of the end times is a Jew or not.

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The group of rebels did terrorized the city for 42 months.

Its hard to keep all the details in the front of your mind.

They chased the Romans out between 66 AD and 70 AD.. Then, in early 70 AD in either Feb or March Titus returned with his Roman soldiers plus soldiers from Syria, Egypt and Arabia. The were victorious by the grape harvest in late August or early Sept.

Douggg said:

The 42 months in Revelation 13 are global in nature. The whole world (except the saints) will worship the beast during that time, Revelation 13:8.

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Maybe you should read Josephus. He describes in detail what the Jews and Gentiles of the first century were experiencing.

The Beast had a loud mouth, boastful and blasphemous.

It could do anything it wanted for forty-two months. It yelled blasphemies against God, blasphemed his Name, blasphemed his Church, especially those already dwelling with God in Heaven. It was permitted to make war on God’s holy people and conquer them.

The beast is the zealots and Jews who are killing the Jews who want peace.. like the two witnesses who were murdered in the spring of 68 AD.

Douggg said:

There are three heavens. (1) The earth's atmosphere, (2) the cosmos, (3) heaven where God's throne is.

2Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

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There's only 2 dimensions of existence, not 3. The sky atmosphere around the earth is called a heaven, but it is of our earthly dimension. The only other dimension of existence is the invisible one that exists behind a veil we cannot see, which is a dimension of Spirit, not material matter. It's that dimension behind the veil where God's abode is, also His angels, and also the abode of Paradise, and also the abode of the wicked called hell.

The "third heaven" idea in 2 Cor.12 is about 3 earth age times. The third heaven with Paul being caught up to Paradise represents the new heavens and new earth timing of the world to come, not a literal eastern religious idea that Heaven has multiple planes or dimensions.

nolidad said:

NO! The son of Satan is the antichrist. The prince of this world when Jesus spoke is satan.

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I don't know where you're getting that 'son of Satan' idea, but it is nowhere written in God's Word. It's the prince of this world that Jesus said is coming, and cast out, which is about Satan himself coming as the Antichrist. Brethren just need to admit what our Lord Jesus has already shown us about Satan being cast down to earth literally, in our dimension, instead of thinking its a joke.

Remember Jesus' temptation in th ewilderness? When Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of this world if Jesus would bowq? Jesus refused the offer, But the counterfeit Christ (His son) will accept this offer.

Rev. 13:
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The dragon gives his authority to the beast! They are two people.

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No, you're letting the KJV translator's use of personal pronouns confuse the Scripture. The dragon (Satan) gives 'it' its power and authority, speaking of the beast 'system', the kingdom. That's the actual meaning. The KJV translators simply chose to put a personal pronoun like 'his' because of ownership. It's Satan's (the dragon) beast system, it belongs to him.

I showed how to be certain of this with the Revelation 13:12 verse, which shows you which beast received the deadly wound that was healed. It was the 1st beast with seven heads. This because no man has "seven heads", for that symbol is about a beast kingdom, and that is what the 1st beast of Rev.13:1 is, a beast kingdom.

The "another beast", a 2nd beast, of Rev.13:11 forward that works the signs and miracles, that is the beast king, and the coming Antichrist. He will be Satan literally, on earth, booted out of Heaven with his angels per Rev.12:7 forward.

nolidad said:

The antichrist is not likened to a lamb- the false prophet is with two horns!

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There is no mention of a false prophet in the Revelation 13 chapter.

The Revelation 13:11-18 Scripture is about a 2nd beast, a person, one that speaks as the "dragon", and works miracles on earth in the sight of men. That is the coming Antichrist, the prince of this world, and is Satan.

Davy said:

Yes, and that is who our Lord Jesus said is coming.

The Rev.12:7-9 verses shows Satan's casting out of the Heavenly dimension, with "neither was their place found anymore in heaven" (Revelation 12:8). There's only 2 dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly one we live in, and the Heavenly one where God and the angels live, including Satan and his angels in a place of separation in the Heavenly. Thus that phrase of Rev.12:8 with no more place found for him and his angels in Heaven, that means he is coming, literally, to our earth, in OUR earthly dimension.

That will be the fulfillment of the John 12:31 verse. Many think that verse was about the time of our Lord's crucifixion, and that Satan was somehow cast out and bound then. That's not what that casting out idea is about. It's about the future Revelation 12:7-9 event which will start the great tribulation timing.

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Actually there are 3 habitations. Earth , space and the heavenly Jerusalem.

The beast gets his power from the dragon and the false prophet also calls for the beast and the dragon to be worshipped Thus Satan and the Antichrist are two separate entities.

BTW the 70th week of Daniel starts when the Antichrist signs a 7 year covenant with the nation of Israel.

Davy said:

And neither are we, for God has already given us His prophets that we are to listen to.

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Yes and the way the inspired writers wrote tell us the antichrist is the son of satan!

Davy said:

Sure he is, which is the whole idea behind the Greek for the word "antichrist", because in the Greek 'anti' can mean 'in place of', or 'instead of'. The Antichrist specifically is coming to exalt himself in place of Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus warned about others saying that 'Christ is here, or there'. Those deceived won't be proclaiming Christ has come unless they actually believe Christ has come.

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I wish you read my responses to Dougg on "anti". It can never mean in the place of or instead of. Those are different words.

But anti in the Greek when coupled with Christos always is defined as the enemy of Christ or one who is against Christ!

If you believe that teh lamb with the two horns is also the beast out of the sea (antichrist) you are a very very sloppy reader of SCripture!

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

The lamb with horns the bible calls another beast- not another version of the first beast. Please read more carefully.

Davy said:

I don't know where you're getting that 'son of Satan' idea, but it is nowhere written in God's Word. It's the prince of this world that Jesus said is coming, and cast out, which is about Satan himself coming as the Antichrist. Brethren just need to admit what our Lord Jesus has already shown us about Satan being cast down to earth literally, in our dimension, instead of thinking its a joke.

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Genesis 3: 15 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Both seeds are in the singular. We know the seed of the woman is Jesus- so the seed of the serpent is the son of satan. It is an oft overlooked verse but has big meaning! So it is a singular seed of teh woman and a singular seed of the serpent!

Davy said:

No, you're letting the KJV translator's use of personal pronouns confuse the Scripture. The dragon (Satan) gives 'it' its power and authority, speaking of the beast 'system', the kingdom. That's the actual meaning. The KJV translators simply chose to put a personal pronoun like 'his' because of ownership. It's Satan's (the dragon) beast system, it belongs to him.

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OK, so show why the KJV translators mistranslated the greek and why you got it right!


REv. 13:2

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
power---dynamis---power, mighty works.
seat--thronos--- throne
authorrity--exousia---power, authority, jurisdiction!

So satan gives himself what he already has?????? C'mon man I think better of you than that

No Satan gives his son his powers, throne and jurisdiction (the world and atmosphere) there is no other way to read it.

SUM PIC XRF DEV STU
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

New Living Translation
This beast looked like a leopard, but it had the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion! And the dragon gave the beast his own power and throne and great authority.

English Standard Version
And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear’s, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.

Berean Study Bible
The beast I saw was like a leopard, with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

Berean Literal Bible
And the beast that I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like a bear's, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave to it his power, and his throne, and great authority.

New American Standard Bible
And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

New King James Version
Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.

King James Bible
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Christian Standard Bible
The beast I saw was like a leopard, its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. The dragon gave the beast his power, his throne, and great authority.

Contemporary English Version
The beast I saw had the body of a leopard, the feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion. The dragon handed over its own power and throne and great authority to this beast.

Good News Translation
The beast looked like a leopard, with feet like a bear's feet and a mouth like a lion's mouth. The dragon gave the beast his own power, his throne, and his vast authority.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The beast I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like a bear's, and his mouth was like a lion's mouth. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.

International Standard Version
The beast that I saw was like a leopard. Its feet were like bear's feet, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. The dragon gave it his power, his throne, and complete authority.

NET Bible
Now the beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. The dragon gave the beast his power, his throne, and great authority to rule.

New Heart English Bible
The beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The serpent gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And The Beast that I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like those of a wolf and its mouth like that of lions, and the Dragon gave its throne, its power and great authority to it.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The beast that I saw was like a leopard. Its feet were like bear's feet. Its mouth was like a lion's mouth. The serpent gave its power, kingdom, and far-reaching authority to the beast.

New American Standard 1977
And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

King James 2000 Bible
And the beast that I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his throne, and great authority.

American King James Version
And the beast which I saw was like to a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

American Standard Version
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his throne, and great authority.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the beast, which I saw, was like to a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his own strength, and great power.

Darby Bible Translation
And the beast which I saw was like to a leopardess, and its feet as of a bear, and its mouth as a lion's mouth; and the dragon gave to it his power, and his throne, and great authority;

English Revised Version
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his throne, and great authority.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Weymouth New Testament
The Wild Beast which I saw resembled a leopard, and had feet like the feet of a bear, and his mouth was like the mouth of a lion; and it was to the Dragon that he owed his power and his throne and his wide dominion.

World English Bible
The beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.

Young's Literal Translation
and the beast that I saw was like to a leopard, and its feet as of a bear, and its mouth as the mouth of a lion, and the dragon did give to it his power, and his throne, and great authority.

So you are declaring all these translations wrong! I await your evidence to show why nearly every English translation has misled believeres.

nolidad said:

Actually there are 3 habitations. Earth , space and the heavenly Jerusalem.

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Earth and outer space are in the same... dimension. The whole universe is in our material dimension of matter.

But the Heavenly dimension, it is not made up of material matter, and it exists behind a veil. There could be angels standing near you right now and you won't know it unless God wants you to know it. This is why our Lord Jesus, after His resurrection, appeared among His disciples right in the midst of them out of nowhere, and even disappeared among them too. The Heavenly is simply in a different dimension of existence. And in Hebrews 11:3 we are shown material matter was created from that invisible dimension of spirit.

The beast gets his power from the dragon and the false prophet also calls for the beast and the dragon to be worshipped Thus Satan and the Antichrist are two separate entities.

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Too much is stressed about the false prophet when Rev.13 doesn't even mention the false prophet. Satan is the dragon, and the false prophet, and beast king, all rolled into one as the Antichrist. This is why the false prophet and beast roles are destroyed on the day of Christ's return, before the Day of Judgment. They are roles only that Satan will play, on earth.

BTW the 70th week of Daniel starts when the Antichrist signs a 7 year covenant with the nation of Israel.

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Yes. I'm aware of that and agree. But a lot of Preterists don't believe that. They think the 70th week is past history.

Yes and the way the inspired writers wrote tell us the antichrist is the son of satan!

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Nowhere does God's Word say the coming Antichrist is the son of Satan. The closest allusion to that kind of idea is with the phrase "son of perdition", which is really about the devil himself, even though Jesus applied that title to Judas also. But Jesus also applied the title of 'devil' to Judas too.

I wish you read my responses to Dougg on "anti". It can never mean in the place of or instead of. Those are different words.

But anti in the Greek when coupled with Christos always is defined as the enemy of Christ or one who is against Christ!

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NT:500
antichristos (an-tee'-khris-tos); from NT:473 and NT:5547; an opponent of the Messiah:
KJV - antichrist.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:473
anti (an-tee'); a primary particle; opposite, i.e. instead or because of (rarely in addition to):
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word antichristos can... mean 'instead of' or in place of. And the example Jesus gave in Matthew 24:23-26 of those who say Christ has come or is in the secret chambers, is about a false one putting himself in place of Christ.

2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
KJV

The idea of one who puts himself in place of Christ is not a foreign subject in God's Word. Even the idea of Satan claiming he will sit in God's place per Isaiah 14 is that very idea!

If you believe that teh lamb with the two horns is also the beast out of the sea (antichrist) you are a very very sloppy reader of SCripture!

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You never read me claiming that 1st beast is the "another beast". Just the opposite, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward is a 2nd beast. There are TWO different beasts written of in the Rev.13 chapter. The 1st one is the beast kingdom that has ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. The 2nd one is the beast king, Antichrist, who will work miracles to deceive with.

Davy said:

Earth and outer space are in the same... dimension. The whole universe is in our material dimension of matter.

But the Heavenly dimension, it is not made up of material matter, and it exists behind a veil. There could be angels standing near you right now and you won't know it unless God wants you to know it. This is why our Lord Jesus, after His resurrection, appeared among His disciples right in the midst of them out of nowhere, and even disappeared among them too. The Heavenly is simply in a different dimension of existence. And in Hebrews 11:3 we are shown material matter was created from that invisible dimension of spirit.

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If you wish to look at it from that perspective- I agree.

Davy said:

Too much is stressed about the false prophet when Rev.13 doesn't even mention the false prophet. Satan is the dragon, and the false prophet, and beast king, all rolled into one as the Antichrist. This is why the false prophet and beast roles are destroyed on the day of Christ's return, before the Day of Judgment. They are roles only that Satan will play, on earth.

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Well you have a problem with Gods Word then.

Rev. 19:20 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev. 20: 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now you have Satan being omnipresent which he is not. and in the Lake of Fire and on earth deceiving people.
Stop defending a faulty teaching and let god's Word show you simply!

Davy said:

Yes. I'm aware of that and agree. But a lot of Preterists don't believe that. They think the 70th week is past history.

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Well that is their problem.

Davy said:

Nowhere does God's Word say the coming Antichrist is the son of Satan. The closest allusion to that kind of idea is with the phrase "son of perdition", which is really about the devil himself, even though Jesus applied that title to Judas also. But Jesus also applied the title of 'devil' to Judas too.

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Devil is a term not a name! there are legions of devils.

Devil is diablos and sometime it refers to Satan and sometime to devils. Context determines which.

But Satans seed is his son and there has not been revealed his son yet. But it fits perfectly with Satan creating a counterfeit trinity! He is the father in teh heavens, his son physically on earth, and his false prophet calling all to take the antichirsts mark. That is clear in Scripture!

Davy said:

You never read me claiming that 1st beast is the "another beast". Just the opposite, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward is a 2nd beast. There are TWO different beasts written of in the Rev.13 chapter. The 1st one is the beast kingdom that has ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. The 2nd one is the beast king, Antichrist, who will work miracles to deceive with.

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Wrong again! The first beast is the one who comes out of the sea and whom Satan gives his powers, throne and jurisdiction to! This is the Antichrist who is king of the earth (temporarily) the end of teh fourth beast reign in Daniels vision!

The second beast is the lamb with 2 horns who speaks like the dragon! He is also called the false prophet!

There are three beasts in REv. 13. The dragon, the sea beast (anti christ) and the land beast (the false prophet) Don't give up normal reading skills when you study the bible. The Book is spiritual but not mystical!

Davy said:

The word antichristos can... mean 'instead of' or in place of. And the example Jesus gave in Matthew 24:23-26 of those who say Christ has come or is in the secret chambers, is about a false one putting himself in place of Christ.

2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
KJV

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Anti can mean in the place of! but no greek dictionary or expository translates it that way- why should you.

As for you corinthians passage? Another Jesus and another gospel is "heteros" which as I have repeatedly said is how the greeks would write to say another Christ! I agree Satans son comes in the guise of Jesus. He presents himself as against Christ (antiochristos) and as another in the place of Christ(heteroschristos) .

Being a teacher I like people to use their words correctly. sloppy exegesis leads to sloppy doctrines and beliefs!

nolidad said:

If you wish to look at it from that perspective- I agree.

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There is no other way to look at it, and that is not some idea I created either. There aren't many dimensions, but only two written of in all of God's Word. He doesn't use the word 'dimension', that's the word I use because that's really how it is. God's Word uses the idea of a 'veil' to describe the separateness between the earthly and the heavenly dimensions.

Well you have a problem with Gods Word then.
....
Now you have Satan being omnipresent which he is not. and in the Lake of Fire and on earth deceiving people.
Stop defending a faulty teaching and let god's Word show you simply!

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Is that something you stayed up all night to dream up, an ignorant idea that I'm somehow making Satan omnipresent? The Revelation 19:20 Scripture showed you that Satan ("dragon") doesn't go into the lake of fire when the beast and false prophet do at Christ's return. Here is when Satan is destroyed...

Rev 20:9-10
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
KJV

That is for AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the nations with His elect.

Well that is their problem.

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Yes, and so it is with those on a pre-trib rapture theory from men too.

Devil is a term not a name! there are legions of devils.

Devil is diablos and sometime it refers to Satan and sometime to devils. Context determines which.

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Rev 20:2
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
KJV

My Bible has "Devil" as a proper name for Satan in that verse. What does your Bible have it as? Obviously it's not speaking of devils plural, but Satan himself. He is also called "Death" in the Rev.6 Chapter. Why are you wanting to argue over that anyway??

But Satans seed is his son and there has not been revealed his son yet. But it fits perfectly with Satan creating a counterfeit trinity! He is the father in teh heavens, his son physically on earth, and his false prophet calling all to take the antichirsts mark. That is clear in Scripture!

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Satan's seed (from Gen.3) is about his followers, his elect, not a literal flesh-born seed like those who believe man's serpent seed doctrine (i.e., sex between Satan and Eve). In Jude 1 is revealed that God ordained certain men to the condemnation of working against Christ. In 2 Thess.2, Paul called this working the "mystery of iniquity". In the OT they are called the "workers of iniquity". In 1 John 2:18 he called them the "many antichrists" already at work. If you haven't understood this, then you might want to go back in Genesis thru Nehemiah and pick up the subject of those who crept in among Israel that God said He would use to test His chosen with.

Wrong again! The first beast is the one who comes out of the sea and whom Satan gives his powers, throne and jurisdiction to! This is the Antichrist who is king of the earth (temporarily) the end of teh fourth beast reign in Daniels vision!

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You are terribly wrong, I'm sorry say. The 1st beast of Revelation 13:1 has ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. It is not a person, but a system, a kingdom.

The 'beast' symbol in Daniel is applied to a beast kingdom, and to a beast king. The kingdom is NOT the king, nor visa versa.

The "another beast" of Revelation 13:11 is the beast king, a 2nd beast. He is the Antichrist, and the same one of Matthew 24:23-26 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and the same one of John 14:31, and the same "red dragon" of Revelation 12:3-4, and the same "dragon" of Revelation 12:7-9, and the same one of Revelation 17:8, and the same "dragon" of Revelation 13:4 that the whole world will worship. They all point directly to... Satan himself on earth, playing Messiah for the end of this world.

The second beast is the lamb with 2 horns who speaks like the dragon! He is also called the false prophet!

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No, the Revelation 13:11 verse says he will appear LIKE (homoios) a lamb. That reveals his coming to deceive as a false Messiah. Nowhere in Rev.13 chapter is he called the false prophet. You are ADDING that into that Scripture, which is a no, no. That is why you are confused about who this "another beast" really is, no doubt from listening to men's doctrines about their false prophet ideas.

The "false prophet" of Rev.16 & 19 is Satan himself. Another way to know this is by this in red...

Rev 16:13-14
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
KJV

... compared with this...

Rev 13:12-14
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
KJV

In Rev.13 specifically, the ONLY ONE doing the 'miracles' is that "another beast" of verse 11 that appears LIKE a lamb, but speaks as a dragon (Satan). And that even shows he will do those miracles "in the sight of the beast". It means the 'beast' and 'false prophet' of Rev.16 & 19 are ROLES the dragon (Satan) will play, and those ROLES are destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.

There are three beasts in REv. 13. The dragon, the sea beast (anti christ) and the land beast (the false prophet) Don't give up normal reading skills when you study the bible. The Book is spiritual but not mystical!

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No, there are only TWO different beasts revealed in Rev.13.

You are ADDING to God's Word in that chapter. There is NO false prophet phrase written there in Rev.13, period. That means your doctrine is ADDING TO SCRIPTURE.

1st beast = a beast KINGDOM (comes up out of the sea, involves the "waters" of Revelation 17, has ten horns which are ten kings per Rev.17, has seven heads which are "seven mountains" per Rev.17, and has ten crowns which are also about the ten kings).

2nd beast = a beast king (comes up out of the earth, which involves the beast of Revelation 17:8 that ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition, which involves the angel that is a king over the bottomless pit of Revelation 9:11; appears with two horns LIKE a lamb, speaks as a dragon, which is another title for Satan. Works signs and wonders, raining fire down to the earth from heaven in the sight of men. Works miracles to deceive the world with. Causes the abomination idol to be made and worshiped. This is the Antichrist, Satan, the dragon, the Devil.)

Revelation 17:8 thru 14 further defines the 2nd beast that comes up out of THE EARTH. The one of Revelation 17:8 & 11 is about Satan as the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition of the lake of fire. He is that beast the ten kings will give their power to.

Anti can mean in the place of! but no greek dictionary or expository translates it that way- why should you.

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Greek ain't English. And I already showed how Dr. James Strong revealed anti in Greek can mean 'instead of'. It is translated as "for" in many NT examples when two things or conditions are exchanged in comparison (Matthew 5:38; 1 Thessalonians 5:15). That is also how Greek anti is meant involving the "antichrist" of 1 John 2:18.

As for you corinthians passage? Another Jesus and another gospel is "heteros" which as I have repeatedly said is how the greeks would write to say another Christ! I agree Satans son comes in the guise of Jesus. He presents himself as against Christ (antiochristos) and as another in the place of Christ(heteroschristos) .

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Well, Paul does start off in 2 Corinthians 11:3 fearing brethren might be deceived by Satan like he did Eve. The fact that Paul used the idea of remaining a chaste virgin waiting on Jesus, and the idea of a fake Jesus, and that Satan disguises (metaschematizo) himself as an angel of light, I think that's plenty enough to show Paul was talking about Satan coming as a fake Christ.

If you don't like sloppy, then quit trying to ADD to Scripture in Rev.13, because it's ONLY about 2 different beasts, and the false prophet is not mentioned there. And man, talk about sloppy! That is sloppy to do that!

Douggg said:

It just means the person will come out of the gentile nations. It does not mean that he will not be a Jew.

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Douggg said:

I have not added any words to the bible. I am giving my interpretation and application.

Nolidad, the shortfall of your interpretation and application is that you don't consider the changes to the arch villain of the end times as time goes by. You don't see any changes to his personna, his station in life, none of that, as time goes by.

Nor do you see any change to the perceived aspect to the false prophet over the 7 years. You don't see that at the beginning of the 7 years, the Jews will believe the false prophet to be Elijah.
_____________________________________________

Stop with the false accusations implying that I am adding words to the text of the bible. You create friction when you do that to other posters. Just address the other person's interpretation and application.

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Well we have beat this dead horse way past usefulness!

YOu want the antichrist to be a Jew- go ahead! But it is not even a moderate implication of the Bible and you should know that.

YOu give your interpretation but God says this:

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
My interpretation and application? I take from the Bible that the Antichrist is called many things and from his initial start in world politics- he goes through many offices or positons. But it is always the very same person.

He is always Satans son, He is always the Antichrist, He is always the man of Sin etc.etc. He may do all things all at once but that individual does all the things the end time world ruler does! I let the bible define my positions.

Not Hal Lindsay or some person who has fed you the lie that the Antichrist must be a Jew and must be anointed a king of Israel!!!!

YOu may have the last word as I do not wish to go any further on this.

Davy said:

There is no other way to look at it, and that is not some idea I created either. There aren't many dimensions, but only two written of in all of God's Word. He doesn't use the word 'dimension', that's the word I use because that's really how it is. God's Word uses the idea of a 'veil' to describe the separateness between the earthly and the heavenly dimensions.

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Well if one is inflicted with myopia I agree there is only one way to look at it. But the Bible offers several ways to view it. And they are all correct from the perspective being considered.

Davy said:

Is that something you stayed up all night to dream up, an ignorant idea that I'm somehow making Satan omnipresent? The Revelation 19:20 Scripture showed you that Satan ("dragon") doesn't go into the lake of fire when the beast and false prophet do at Christ's return. Here is when Satan is destroyed...

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It is you who calls Satan the dragon, the land and sea beast, not me!

Davy said:

Yes, and so it is with those on a pre-trib rapture theory from men too.

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Well if it was from men it wold be a problem. But the rapture or snatching away will happen before the start of the 70th week of Daniel. The bible doesn't say it that explicitly, but when it declares the purpose of the 70th week throughout the Scriptures- it proves the church will not go through it!

Davy said:

You are terribly wrong, I'm sorry say. The 1st beast of Revelation 13:1 has ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. It is not a person, but a system, a kingdom.

The 'beast' symbol in Daniel is applied to a beast kingdom, and to a beast king. The kingdom is NOT the king, nor visa versa.

The "another beast" of Revelation 13:11 is the beast king, a 2nd beast. He is the Antichrist, and the same one of Matthew 24:23-26 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and the same one of John 14:31, and the same "red dragon" of Revelation 12:3-4, and the same "dragon" of Revelation 12:7-9, and the same one of Revelation 17:8, and the same "dragon" of Revelation 13:4 that the whole world will worship. They all point directly to... Satan himself on earth, playing Messiah for the end of this world.

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So you wish to agree with the opinion of the Jw's and David Koresh! Good for you! I didn't know God was going to throw a governmental system into the lake of fire!

So the lamb with 2 horns makes a statue to a governmental system and causes it to come alive? and then the Antichirst commands all to worship a governmental system? WOW!

Davy said:

No, there are only TWO different beasts revealed in Rev.13.

You are ADDING to God's Word in that chapter. There is NO false prophet phrase written there in Rev.13, period. That means your doctrine is ADDING TO SCRIPTURE.

1st beast = a beast KINGDOM (comes up out of the sea, involves the "waters" of Revelation 17, has ten horns which are ten kings per Rev.17, has seven heads which are "seven mountains" per Rev.17, and has ten crowns which are also about the ten kings).

2nd beast = a beast king (comes up out of the earth, which involves the beast of Revelation 17:8 that ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition, which involves the angel that is a king over the bottomless pit of Revelation 9:11; appears with two horns LIKE a lamb, speaks as a dragon, which is another title for Satan. Works signs and wonders, raining fire down to the earth from heaven in the sight of men. Works miracles to deceive the world with. Causes the abomination idol to be made and worshiped. This is the Antichrist, Satan, the dragon, the Devil.)

Revelation 17:8 thru 14 further defines the 2nd beast that comes up out of THE EARTH. The one of Revelation 17:8 & 11 is about Satan as the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition of the lake of fire. He is that beast the ten kings will give their power to.

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Well according to the 32 English translations I have, The Greek and even the Hebrew NT I have access to there are these beasts:

The dragon (Satan)
The sea beast (The antichrist)
Th eland beast (the false prophet.

How do I know this!

Both of Daniels visions, The Olivet Discourse. and the chapters of REvelation!

If you wish to think that the Antichrist is the lamb with two horns and he commands all to worship a governmental system- that is your whatever. But please don't blame the Word of god for that personal opinion.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now notice all the 3rd person personal pronouns? Same in 32 other translations. What do you know that they don't!

And a government or kingdom has no authority. Only the leader or leaders exercise authority!

Rev. 14: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

REv. 16 : Here the beast is spoken of with His seat and his kingdom! How can a kingdom have a kingdom?????????

Back to REv. 13:
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

People worship a kingdom??????????? Besides the Devil himself?

Rev. 17 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Ten kings with ten kingdoms? Where is the beast here ? I thought he ruled the world. But in Daniel the eleventh horn uproots three horns and the other 7 submit to him- not it!

Rev. 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

According to you the beast is a kingdom ( a non material concept) and the antichrist are thrown into the lake of fire!

We know the third beast of Rev. 13 (the lamb with 2 horns) is the false prophet .Why? Cuz the Bible here identifies him!Then we go back to Rev. 13:

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The false prophet worked miracles in teh presence of the beast. The lamb with two horns worked miracles in the presence of the beast! The Bible concludes the beast is a person (Antichrist) not an immaterial thing called a kingdom! and the lamb is the false prophet who works miracles in the sight of the sea beast who works miracles because the dragon gave the sea beast his ability to workl lying signs and wonders.

when you look at all teh bible verses you can only come to this conclusion!

nolidad said:

Well if one is inflicted with myopia....

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No need to get insulting.

I agree there is only one way to look at it. But the Bible offers several ways to view it. And they are all correct from the perspective being considered.

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I don't know what they'd be other than what I've shown already. Do you have any Bible examples for us to compare?

It is you who calls Satan the dragon, the land and sea beast, not me!

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Read your Bible. It is not I that labeled Satan as the "dragon"...

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV

Well if it was from men it wold be a problem. But the rapture or snatching away will happen before the start of the 70th week of Daniel. The bible doesn't say it that explicitly, but when it declares the purpose of the 70th week throughout the Scriptures- it proves the church will not go through it!

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No, the pre-trib rapture theory is from men alright. For almost 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of His Church. In 1830s Great Britain is when a pre-trib rapture theory was first preached in a Christian Church.

There is nothing... in the Book of Daniel about a pre-trib rapture. The Bible doesn't even hint... to a pre-trib rapture. The Bible is explicit about a post-tribulational coming of Jesus and gathering of His Church. I already showed one evidence that He Himself gave in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-28 Scriptures, and NO ONE has proven against Him on that.

When you decide to study your Bible for yourself, and learn what God's Word actually says about the order of the end and our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church, then we can talk more on it. Until then, you are just regurgitating what you've been taught from men's doctrines, and not from God's Word. That is why you haven't been able to give the kind of Bible witness that I did, which is from our Lord Jesus' Own Words.

Davy said:

I don't know what they'd be other than what I've shown already. Do you have any Bible examples for us to compare?

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Well let us look at the example we have.

One perspective of where demons act are the spiritual dimension and the physcial dimension.

Another perspective is that on the basis of the heavens, demons act in three areas. The atmosphere, the cosmos and heaven where God dwells.

Both are true! It just depends on which perspective you are dealing with.

Davy said:

Read your Bible. It is not I that labeled Satan as the "dragon"...

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV

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I fully know the dragon is Satan! But you have at differing times on this thread called Satan all three of these beasts of Rev. 13.

Davy said:

No, the pre-trib rapture theory is from men alright. For almost 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of His Church. In 1830s Great Britain is when a pre-trib rapture theory was first preached in a Christian Church.

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that would be incorrect! Paul taught it in Thessalonians! The rapture is not the coing of Jesus He promised in the Olivet Discourse! It is not a coming of Jesus at all, It is Him descending into the atmosphere and calling the church home!

As the church grew into Gentile regions and then especially with Augustine, did a new position on the rapture come. Anything from mid trib- to no rapture at all! Teh church of teh dark ages went to no rapture! As the "reformation" grew and most of the major erros of the dark ages dealt with, attention began to turn to escatological matters.

Davy said:

There is nothing... in the Book of Daniel about a pre-trib rapture. The Bible doesn't even hint... to a pre-trib rapture. The Bible is explicit about a post-tribulational coming of Jesus and gathering of His Church. I already showed one evidence that He Himself gave in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-28 Scriptures, and NO ONE has proven against Him on that.

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I never said Daniel had a rapture at all so that is a red herring!

I never hinted at all that Jesus would be coming any time but at the end of the tribulation! This also is a red herring.

You confuse the elect of Matt. 24 with the church, which it is not! It is the tribulation saints. The church returns with Jesus! During the 70th week of Daniel on earth the church is in heaven. We are going through the Bema seat judgment, our works rewarded, and us being given our clean white robes, and then being married to Christ as His bride!.

REv. 19:

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The Church cannot be on earth and in heaven getting married at the same time!

For the term elect? Context determines always who the elect are! Sometime it is believing OT Jews, sometime the church, and sometime the tribulation saints!

Davy said:

When you decide to study your Bible for yourself, and learn what God's Word actually says about the order of the end and our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church, then we can talk more on it. Until then, you are just regurgitating what you've been taught from men's doctrines, and not from God's Word. That is why you haven't been able to give the kind of Bible witness that I did, which is from our Lord Jesus' Own Words.

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If I am regurgitating mens' doctrines, what are you doing but regurgitating someone elses' doctrine!

But as I hasve studied Gods Word for 45 years now and have taught eschatology iin Bible College, Bible Institute and in several churches, I think I might have a pretty good idea.

Also having studied several dozen works on eschatology from several positions, I see you are just regurgitating someone elses doctrine!

For someone who thinks the beast rising out of the sea is simply government and that the antrichrist is the lamb with 2 horns, you telling me to read my bible smacks of hubris.

I noticed you not so subtly refused to rebut my showing you that teh sea beast is the antichrist, the lamb is the false prophet and the dragon makes up the entire unholy trinity! And before you throw another red herring, yes the Bible does not call them an unholy trinity, just like the bible doesn't call God a trinity. But if you reject the counterfeit trinity (for it acts just like the real trinity in its counterfeit way) then you also must deny the trinity as a description of God!

nolidad said:

Well let us look at the example we have.

One perspective of where demons act are the spiritual dimension and the physcial dimension.

Another perspective is that on the basis of the heavens, demons act in three areas. The atmosphere, the cosmos and heaven where God dwells.

Both are true! It just depends on which perspective you are dealing with.

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Where they operate doesn't actually 'define' the division and type though. What defines the two different dimensions are the attribute differences in God's Word. In 1 Cor.15, Apostle Paul said that as we have borne the "image of the earthy", we shall also "bear the image of the heavenly". He was explaining what type of body the resurrection is, and comparing the natural body with a spiritual body. Those are examples that better define the two dimensions.

I fully know the dragon is Satan! But you have at differing times on this thread called Satan all three of these beasts of Rev. 13.

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No, actually I have not. There are 2 different beasts revealed in Revelation 13. The 1st one is a kingdom beast. The "another beast" starting at verse 11 is the 2nd beast and is a beast king (related to the beast king idea in the Book of Daniel, for all the historical beasts represented a king and a kingdom). Instead what many here have done, is to wrongly assign the kingdom beast of Rev.13:1 as the beast king. So what you're accusing me of it's actually what others are doing.

What I have proclaimed are all the 'same' person, i.e. the Antichrist, as the beast king, the dragon, and the false prophet.

The idea of a beast and false prophet for the end are only ROLES the coming Antichrist will play. I know that just destroys... men's little doctrines all dreamt up about the false prophet, but so be it, as there is NO mention of the false prophet doing miracles in the Rev.13 chapter. Yet per Rev.16, the beast (king) and false prophet are shown doing miracles along with the dragon. That puts them all together as one person, because our Lord Jesus in His Olivet discourse (per the Greek) warned us about only one pseudo-Christ coming to work the "great signs and wonders" in Jerusalem. Same thing with Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and John in Revelation 13:11-14; they warned us about only one specific person coming to work the signs and wonders that will deceive. The early Church fathers interpreted the coming Antichrist that's to work the great signs and wonders being a certain individual too, so that isn't some strange new idea.

that would be incorrect! Paul taught it in Thessalonians! The rapture is not the coing of Jesus He promised in the Olivet Discourse! It is not a coming of Jesus at all, It is Him descending into the atmosphere and calling the church home!

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Paul never taught Jesus would come PRIOR to the tribulation to gather His Church.

Paul taught just the opposite in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9. In 1 Thessalonians 4, Apostle Paul did not give us the timing of Christ's coming to gather His Church. Only the 'how' and 'where' is explained there. In the next 1 Thessalonians 5 chapter, Paul hinted at the timing of Christ's coming with the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night", pulling from the OT prophets. That is where Paul gave hints about the timing of 1 Thess.4.

In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:25-28 Jesus gave to detail of His 2nd coming and gathering of His Church which directly... parallels the events of the gathering that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. I'm pretty sure I have quoted those very examples several times on this forum already, but it shouldn't be difficult to compare them directly from God's Word.

(cont.)

nolidad said:

As the church grew into Gentile regions and then especially with Augustine, did a new position on the rapture come. Anything from mid trib- to no rapture at all! Teh church of teh dark ages went to no rapture! As the "reformation" grew and most of the major erros of the dark ages dealt with, attention began to turn to escatological matters.

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I don't care to get into historical arguments. We both know the Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby churches in 1830s Great Britain was the first era when a pre-trib secret rapture idea was taught to congregations; pre-trib scholars themselves have admitted as much. That excludes any monk or scholar coming up with the idea prior to that.

I never said Daniel had a rapture at all so that is a red herring!

I never hinted at all that Jesus would be coming any time but at the end of the tribulation! This also is a red herring.

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I simply made statements that no pre-trib rapture is mentioned in the Book of Daniel, nor by Christ, but instead gave Scripture proof by our Lord Jesus to the opposite, and you claim that's a red herring??? You obviously are confused sir.

You confuse the elect of Matt. 24 with the church, which it is not! It is the tribulation saints. The church returns with Jesus! During the 70th week of Daniel on earth the church is in heaven. We are going through the Bema seat judgment, our works rewarded, and us being given our clean white robes, and then being married to Christ as His bride!.

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I have confused nothing about that chapter. You just have not compared 'who' and 'where' of the gathering of those saints to what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. If you had, you'd be talking about that instead of claiming the above. So once more, here I go again with the Scripture proof...

Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send his angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Those gathered in the Matthew 24:31 verse are the "asleep" saints Jesus brings with Him from Heaven when He comes.

1 Thess 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

Those gathered in the Mark 13:27 version are those still alive on earth that are "caught up"...

1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

That... is the Biblical evidence that Jesus was speaking about His Church in His Olivet discourse, and not some 'trib saints' idea that the pre-trib school has dreamed up to keep their deceived followers from studying what all Jesus told us in His Olivet discourse.

REv. 19:
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The Church cannot be on earth and in heaven getting married at the same time!

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I see you got that interpretation of those Rev.19 verses from the pre-trib rapture doctrine, because that's how they teach that, but it's the wrong interpretation. I have put the 'key' parts in red that you miss.

The Revelation 19:1-9 verses are ALL future prophetic perfect tense! That is why it says "the Lord God omnipotent reigneth". The marriage of The Lamb and that supper do not happen UNTIL after Christ's 2nd coming.

And here is part of that you left out!...

Rev 19:1-3
19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, 'Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.'
3 And again they said, 'Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
KJV

That shows that first section of the Rev.19 chapter is AFTER... Christ has come to destroy the great harlot and avenged His servants. Why would you leave that out? It goes with the 6 thru 9 verse timing.

But at the Revelation 19:10 verse, that reverts back to the time just PRIOR to Christ's 2nd coming and then shows the last battle when He will destroy with His coming army.

Thusly, the Revelation 19:1-9 verse the Pre-trib Rapture school tries to use as evidence of a pre-trib rapture are not a proof at all!

(cont.)

nolidad said:

For the term elect? Context determines always who the elect are! Sometime it is believing OT Jews, sometime the church, and sometime the tribulation saints!

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There's no such idea as tribulation saints written in God's Word. That is a dreamt up idea form the Pre-trib Rapture school in attempt support their false belief on a rapture of Christ's Church prior to the tribulation.

If I am regurgitating mens' doctrines, what are you doing but regurgitating someone elses' doctrine!

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The Pre-trib Rapture theory has been being taught in some Christian Churches since 1830s Great Britain. That has been documented. So I know you didn't live back in the 1830s when that got started in certain churches. But where I get the events I've been showing you is directly from God's Holy Writ.

Why do you not you talk about the Scriptures I have covered for you, especially what I showed from our Lord Jesus' Own Words about the gathering of His saints compared to what Paul wrote in 1 Thess.4?

But as I hasve studied Gods Word for 45 years now and have taught eschatology iin Bible College, Bible Institute and in several churches, I think I might have a pretty good idea.

Also having studied several dozen works on eschatology from several positions, I see you are just regurgitating someone elses doctrine!

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I'm not knocking education, because I know my Lord Jesus calls some to that, but not all. Apostle Paul defined, as you well know, the various gifts by The Holy Spirit. He was an Apostle of our Lord Jesus. Sorry, but you are not, nor am I. Yet I find it amazing that you haven't yet discovered that the gathering events Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 are the very events of the gathering of the saints that our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse.

Prove me wrong then about the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-28 Scriptures compared with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.