Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

  • I am a Universalist. All will eventually be saved by God's grace.

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And? He's not a Calvinist and certainly not Reformed in his theology. More strawman arguments.

Moreover, I don't know how many times it has to be explained to you how many times the Reformed will come back to Romans 6 in this case. Paul explicitly and directly addresses any mistaken notion that our justification apart from our works is therefore a license to sin.

30% of those in the Southern Baptist Convention are Calvinists.
My point was also not against Calvinism alone but Protestantism.
Calvinists are Reformed Protestants. Most of all your Protestants hold to Once Saved Always Saved (Except for most Pentecostals, and or Charismatics). There may be a few small number of Protestants I may not know about who are for Sanctification (works, holy living, putting away sin) for salvation (after we are saved by God's grace), but I have not discovered any such group yet. Please be my guest. The majority of Protestants believe in OSAS, and or Belief Alone-ism. You have to prove that this is not the case.

You want Protestantism to be for works salvation (When this is not what the majority of Protestants believe in any way).

Besides, I have already shown to you that John MacArthur (Calvinist) has promoted a license for immorality in this thread already. He is not the only one. Mark Driscoll is another one. Also, I have talked with many Calvinists online over the many years, as well. In my experience or opinion: They preach a double message when it comes to holy living.
 
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And? He's not a Calvinist and certainly not Reformed in his theology. More strawman arguments.

Moreover, I don't know how many times it has to be explained to you how many times the Reformed will come back to Romans 6 in this case. Paul explicitly and directly addresses any mistaken notion that our justification apart from our works is therefore a license to sin.

Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (See: Titus 1:16). Paul asks the question, can we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul's answer is God forbid. Can a Christian go prodigal for a time and still be saved while doing so? How long will a Christian abide in sin before they must confess and forsake of it? You appeared to not accept 1 John 1:9 says. How can we be forgiven of sin by confessing sin as per 1 John 1:9? In your view: Do you think 1 John 1:8 is teaching that Christians will always sin 24/7?
 
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Albion

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I don't believe we are in agreement. You believe a Christian cannot lose salvation via by grievous sin. I do (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).
I believe a Christian has to confess (to Jesus) and forsake sin in order to have forgiveness or spiritual life again (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Proverbs 28:13).
:sigh: Two POVs that are not opposite each other.
 
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Congratulations :) I've been on CF alone discussing these topics for over 16 years, plus additional years on another religion forum.

I was merely letting you know my experience with Calvinists. I think where we disagree is on the standard of Morality. This is why you are unable to see it. I believe Calvinism is foreign to Scripture. It simply is a belief system taking a few verses within the Bible out of their context.

You said:
That last would be your own logically erroneous conclusion. I know of no Calvinist that believes sin is no real danger at all or that it is inconsequential. Consider Chapter 11 Section 5 of the Westminster Confession of Faith:

God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified:(o) and although they can never fall from the state of justification;(p) yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.(q)
(o) Matt. 6:12; I John 1:7, 9; I John 2:1, 2.
(p) Luke 22:32; John 10:28; Heb. 10:14.
(q) Ps. 89:31, 32, 33; Ps. 51:7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12; Ps. 32:5; Matt. 26:75; I Cor. 11:30, 32; Luke 1:20.​

What do I mean by danger? Well, I am referring to a loss of salvation and condemnation by God. There is no danger in sinning by being chastised or corrected. The same bad things that can happen to Christians, can happen to unbelievers. Both can face hardships in this sin fallen world. The only real danger is one losing their own soul.

You said:
Any doctrinally Reformed Christian would readily affirm that true saving faith is necessarily accompanied by works, those works proceeding from the regenerate heart at the urging of the indwelling Spirit. Where we differ is in the view that our state of justification before God depends upon our ongoing righteous works instead of solely on the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. We should be pursuing righteousness out of love for God and gratitude for His grace, not because we fear our weakness is too much for the Spirit to overcome.

The Bible says work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?
Yes, I heard the explanation on this one and it is silly.
Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the ONE who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28).

You said:
Scripture says He is able to keep us from stumbling and to present us blameless. If your view is true, He's either unable despite this claim, or He's unwilling despite His ability. Which is it?

Jude 1:24 is not without our meeting the conditions that God requires us. God can keep us from stumbling or falling away, but we have to do our part. For example: Jesus said to the disciples to pray so as not to be led into temptation. Why did they have to pray so as not to be led into temptation if they had automatic protection by God not to be led into temptation?
 
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Hammster

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Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
— Romans 5:1-2

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
— Romans 5:6-11

Paul is clear that our standing before God is solely based on the work of Christ. He will continue this all the way until the end of chapter 7. Chapter 6 is clear that sin has no more authority over us who are saved. We shouldn’t sin because we are slaves to righteousness, even if disobedient.

Trying to stay saved by works of the law is folly. In fact, Paul tells us why the law was given.
The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
— Romans 5:20
 
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:sigh: you first laid out a position that you disagree with (and attribute to me)...and then you followed it up with a statement that most of those people you disagreed with believe.:doh:

So you don't believe a Christian loses salvation by sin?
I looked up the Anglicans beliefs on the forum. They do not believe a Christian can fall away. This means that they cannot lose salvation via during the time that they sin, right? This means that they can sin and still be saved on some level. Am I incorrect here?
 
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Eats popcorn eagerly awaiting response.

Hmmm, during this intermission: I may get me some coffee flavored Tiramisu with some McCafe Premium Roast/Dunkin Donuts Coffee.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Trying to stay saved by works of the law is folly. In fact, Paul tells us why the law was given.
The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
— Romans 5:20
And don't forget what else Paul said about the Law.

Gal 3:24 - Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
 
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frumanchu

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What happens if the person who has been justified does not “humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance”? Are they still justified even without faith?

Why would someone advocating justification by faith alone turn around and say someone is justified without faith? I find it disturbing how much people are focusing on the outward because unlike God they cannot look upon the heart. They see a struggle, a stumble, a season of turmoil and they cast them into the fire. Thanks be to God He is more gracious and will not let His people fall fully or finally into sin and damnation.
 
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frumanchu

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The real question is not CAN a Christian sin, not repent of it and be condemned. The real question is WILL they, and the answer is NO. The Holy Spirit will ultimately convict him who He indwells and bring him to repentance. So even if you were to believe that sin somehow breaks the bond of faith, re-enslaves the Christian to sin, and upends his salvation, they will not be snatched from His hand. He who began a good work in them WILL see it through to completion.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Why would someone advocating justification by faith alone turn around and say someone is justified without faith? I find it disturbing how much people are focusing on the outward because unlike God they cannot look upon the heart. They see a struggle, a stumble, a season of turmoil and they cast them into the fire. Thanks be to God He is more gracious and will not let His people fall fully or finally into sin and damnation.

Look at the quote you provided.

God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified:(o) and although they can never fall from the state of justification;(p) yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.

According to this quote those who have been justified can lose their faith. So my question is what happens to those who have been justified but do not renew their faith?
 
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Hammster

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Look at the quote you provided.



According to this quote those who have been justified can lose their faith. So my question is what happens to those who have been justified but do not renew their faith?
Not happening.
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
— Romans 5:1
 
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BNR32FAN

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The real question is not CAN a Christian sin, not repent of it and be condemned. The real question is WILL they, and the answer is NO. The Holy Spirit will ultimately convict him who He indwells and bring him to repentance. So even if you were to believe that sin somehow breaks the bond of faith, re-enslaves the Christian to sin, and upends his salvation, they will not be snatched from His hand. He who began a good work in them WILL see it through to completion.

Im not talking about faith being removed because of sin I’m talking about a person turning to unbelief and unrepentance. Apostasy is mentioned several times throughout the scriptures.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The real question is not CAN a Christian sin, not repent of it and be condemned. The real question is WILL they, and the answer is NO. The Holy Spirit will ultimately convict him who He indwells and bring him to repentance. So even if you were to believe that sin somehow breaks the bond of faith, re-enslaves the Christian to sin, and upends his salvation, they will not be snatched from His hand. He who began a good work in them WILL see it through to completion.

Exsmples of apostasy in the scriptures


“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:35-39‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:20‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Paul wrote this to Timothy

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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BNR32FAN

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Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
— Romans 5:1

Very similar to this verse.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Next comes the condition, Paul hasn’t ended this statement yet. And he continues to say

“if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:23‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Very similar to this verse.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Next comes the condition, Paul hasn’t ended this statement yet. And he continues to say

“if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:23‬ ‭NASB‬‬
It just occurred to me that if some of the assembly of Ekklesia (saved ones) did not fall away, there would not be an apostasy mentioned, right ?

i.e. Abiding in Christ means continuing in Him, not being in Him on and off, nor leaving Him/ not rejecting Him obviously.
 
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Hammster

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Very similar to this verse.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Next comes the condition, Paul hasn’t ended this statement yet. And he continues to say

“if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:23‬ ‭NASB‬‬
Which is fine. But if you look at the continuation of Paul’s argument through Romans 7, you will see that he expounds on v. 1 to show that because of Christ’s work, we are secure in Him because of Him. It just takes the study of the passage in context text.
 
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It just occurred to me that if some of the assembly of Ekklesia (saved ones) did not fall away, there would not be an apostasy mentioned, right ?

i.e. Abiding in Christ means continuing in Him, not being in Him on and off, nor leaving Him/ not rejecting Him obviously.

Yes that’s the ONLY way apostasy can happen. Unbelievers cannot apostatize.
 
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