IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

Francis Drake said:

I have refuted this nonsense countless times.
Jesus was not calling them to get saved or converted, they were already believers and he was simply calling them to discipleship. The proof is in the words of the verse you endlessly spout.
John15v16You did not chose Me, but I chose you and appointed you, that you should go and you should bear fruit, and your fruit should remain, so that whatever you might ask the Father in My name, He may give you.
As can be seen, he is calling them that they should go out in his name and bear fruit, which is exactly what they did.

The disciples were already walking with God before Jesus called them, some had been the Baptist's disciples before they met Jesus.

John15v16 says absolutely nothing about Jesus calling them to salvation, and to claim otherwise is plain deception.

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In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you imagine you refute the Word of God Who says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which clearly refers to being saved and converted as well as in the same passage "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). All of Jesus' chosen bear fruit, it is the evidence of the nature of the creature (Matthew 7:15-20). Fruit is the evidence of saving Grace (John 3:21, John 15:5).

God appoints His sheep to bear fruit (John 15:16), and fruit can only be born in Jesus for He says "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

God chooses men unto salvation and sanctification, but men do not choose God unto salvation thus says the Lord (John 15:16, John 15:19)!

Apparently, you are no friend of Jesus because Lord Jesus talks about we of His being His friends in John 15:15 - the verse prior to John 15:16.

Francis Drake said:

Acts10v15And a voice came again to him for the second time: “What God has cleansed, you do not call common.”
What's so difficult about this @Kermos, it looks pretty straight forward to me that Cornelius was cleansed by God long before Peter even left the tanner's house.
But then, you love to throw confusion into the simplest of things.

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Peter heard the voice say "What God has cleansed" (Acts 10:15), but out of your voice "Cornelius was already fully cleansed" "Cornelius was acceptable to God because he chose to fear Him".

Notice that God cleases (Acts 10:15), but no mention of the man cleansing himself because man cannot cleanse himself.

The voice did not say that Cornelius was fully cleansed, but the voice did command for Jesus' sheep to not call unclean that which God cleanses.

Hmm, Francis Drake, that a lot of scripture twisting that you are doing there.

Let's dive into what is written about the Gentiles overall and Cornelius in "but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him" (Acts 10:35).

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Psalm 111:10).

Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

In order for a person to fear the Lord Christ is already there for Christ is the wisdom of God.

So what happened to Cornelius and all his household sounds a whole lot like thinking differently afterward (repentance).

Oh, but wait, the apostles and brethren said of the Gentiles which includes Cornelius and his household "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18).

God must be there for Gentiles including Cornelius and his household to be cleansed.

This fear of the Lord that you attribute to Cornelius's volition is never done so in Scripture.

I'd like to return to the focal point, Francis Drake. The topic is the audience which the word "you" represents when Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) after which the Apostle Peter said regarding the Gentiles including Cornelius "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Since the Apostle Peter includes all believers in all time when Lord Jesus says "you" as recorded in Scripture, then this results in the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding all believers in all time.

May the Word of God open your eyes to His righteously holy Truth (John 14:6) in which He alone does all things exclusively in the saving of man from the wrath of God!

Kermos said:

Apparently, you are no friend of Jesus because Lord Jesus talks about we of His being His friends in John 15:15 - the verse prior to John 15:16.

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Here we go again, in trying to coerce me into bowing to your superior theology, you have told me repeatedly that I am no friend of Jesus, but @Kermos, what do you really know of my friendship with Jesus?

Kermos said:

Except, the Word of God states "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), so both of your lack of scriptural citation for choice towards God is very telling about you.

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That was actually spoken to 12 men. He also had some things to say about Judas that are not universally applied to all he "chose" so it seems to be a matter of "this complimentary statment we take to mean for all of us but this one we do not." The fact that the Bible says that WE will stand in judgement means God holds us responsible for our choices, not himself.

And I take all of the Bible not just the bits that please. My scriptural references tell that this is what I do.

Kermos said:

Hmm, I didn't write that God manipulates all human choices. Your failure to cite scripture to support choice toward God is very telling about you, Dorothy Mae.

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Does God choose who will be saved and they cannot not be saved? How is this done without him manipulating human choices?

By the way, Choose this day whom you will serve comes from the Bible occurs once in the Bible, and the single occurrence of Joshua 24:15 has already been covered and shown to not include choice toward God (post in this thread).

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Please provide the Bible referencde that says that Joshua has "already been covered" and what exactly does that mean and who was not covered at that time? The verse "I chose you" occurs once in the Bible. You are wrong about "choose whom you will serve" as occuring only once. It occured more than once.

Here is another post about the relevance of Jushua 24:15 to now (post in this thread).

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First I want a scripture on where God said that Joshua was already covered and what that means. I cannot recall him saying to anyone that they were "already covered."

The only way a person can righteously pray for God's will be done is by the working of God in such a person for Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

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So those who do not cannot and yet God holds them responsible and will punish them eternally all because HE DID NOT WORK in them so they could. Is that your position? God blames them for not doing what they could not do unless He did something first.

You fail to identify where I added to the Word of God, and I state that you neglected to do so because there is no place that I added to the Word of God.

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I did above. You added to the word when you said Joshua was "already covered" although there isn't a single promise to Joshua that this was the case.

Let me recap that which is the Word of God:

Lord Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3), and the Christ is here talking of being converted (Matthew 18:3), but self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim to see the Kingdom of God in in their unconverted state, their first nature (post in this thread), and they proceed from bad to worse by claiming they choose Jesus in their unconverted state, yet Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), converts His sheep into His sheep (John 15:5, John 15:15, John 15:16, John 15:19, John 10:27-30). In the intellect of the self-willed person's unconverted first nature they defiantly use the words "I chose Jesus" in direct opposition to the words of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19); therefore, it is prudent to declare these words of Jesus "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

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So one has to be born again before one can be born again? How come anyone, including Jesus, even bothered to preach to men as though they have a choice if God has to convert a man before he can be converted? This, is NOT in the Bible but you add it to the Word, again. It say a man has to be born again to SEE the kingdom of God, not born again in order to be born again. YOu changed the word there.

The 2 Peter reference says no such thing. Read Luke 7. The woman washing Jesus feet with her fair was not even forgiven and she was worshipping him in her "self-willed" and uncoverted state. After she worshipped him, in her first nature, she was forgiven her sins. She chose him in her unconverted state and he then forgave her.

I know this false theology. It sets up a straw man argument as though a man saved from something terrible thanks himself.

And your theology does not give any glory to God at all but accuses him of montrous evil. He chooses some for Heaven and some for hell and no man has the chance to change that destiny. You say you give glory to God but the whole theology is very insulting to Him and causes His enemies to exalt.

Francis Drake said:

That's the way it goes.
But being God, he knows the choices we will make an eternity before we are born.

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That does not affect us in any way. I know, same as anyone, that if I do certain things, others whom I know will react in a certain way. Does not change their free will choice to act in that way. His knowing does not affect us in the least. He does not make choices based on that in any way that we can understand from our limited view.

Kermos said:

Except, the Word of God states "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), so both of your lack of scriptural citation for choice towards God is very telling about you.

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Please stop the personal attacks. It tells us your arguments are weak and you know it. Jesus said to his disciples, ALL of whom he chose, that one would betray him. Does that apply to us as well?

Kermos said:

Peter heard the voice say "What God has cleansed" (Acts 10:15), but out of your voice "Cornelius was already fully cleansed" "Cornelius was acceptable to God because he chose to fear Him".

Notice that God cleases (Acts 10:15), but no mention of the man cleansing himself because man cannot cleanse himself.

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Bravo @Kermos, yet again you've won a straw man argument.
Now show me anywhere I claimed a man can cleanse himself.

The voice did not say that Cornelius was fully cleansed, but the voice did command for Jesus' sheep to not call unclean that which God cleanses.

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Here's what God said to Peter, three times.
Acts10v15And a voice came again to him for the second time: “What God has cleansed, you do not call unclean.”
So when God cleanses someone, he is not really "fully cleansed", but still a bit grubby maybe?
I suggest you take that up with God, he might need some hints from you so he can do a proper job.

Hmm, Francis Drake, that a lot of scripture twisting that you are doing there.

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I think that privilege belongs to you @Kermos

Let's dive into what is written about the Gentiles overall and Cornelius in "but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him" (Acts 10:35).

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Psalm 111:10).

Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

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Great scriptures, but no help to your Calvinist heresy

In order for a person to fear the Lord Christ is already there for Christ is the wisdom of God.

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Of course Christ was with all OT believers, but that says nothing about your Calvinism, unless you think Moses was perhaps a Calvinist?

So what happened to Cornelius and all his household sounds a whole lot like thinking differently afterward (repentance).

Oh, but wait, the apostles and brethren said of the Gentiles which includes Cornelius and his household "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18).

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God must be there for Gentiles including Cornelius and his household to be cleansed.

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Just as I have always said

This fear of the Lord that you attribute to Cornelius's volition is never done so in Scripture.

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In normal written and spoken language throughout the world, when alternatives are presented before people, it is perfectly normal and logical that volition and free choice is demanded. To claim otherwise is shear lunacy, and if that linguistic rule was abandoned, then almost every document or archive would need to be rewritten.
To pretend that the bible has a hidden system not used in normal language just shows how shallow your argument is.
In short, when scripture presents alternatives, just like every other writing, it assumes we have a choice to make of our own volition!
Nowhere does scripture say anything to challenge this principle.

Dorothy Mae said:

That does not affect us in any way. I know, same as anyone, that if I do certain things, others whom I know will react in a certain way. Does not change their free will choice to act in that way. His knowing does not affect us in the least. He does not make choices based on that in any way that we can understand from our limited view.

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That has been my point throughout the thread.

Francis Drake said:

Yeah, lets do that!
Just be sure to put your metaphor specs on though, it'll be much easier.
Have you come across metaphors before @Kermos, because you need to understand what they are before theologising on a passage like this, as it is full of metaphors.

v16.."I will spew you out of my mouth". Is this real or just another metaphor? Cos if he's really gonna spew them out, Jesus will have to eat all those pesky Laodiceans first.

v18, here Jesus tells them to buy gold, white clothes, and eye salve. Again are these real or metaphors, cos if they're real, then its mighty expensive for the poor to get salvation!

v20 "Behold I stand at the door and knock" Just like the above, this is a metaphor and represents Jesus seeking access to a man's heart.

What a convoluted perversion of scripture.
Jesus certainly healed the deaf, but it was because they or their friends asked Jesus to heal them. ie. they applied their faith and were rewarded for it.
Jesus never healed physical or spiritual deafness of anyone in unbelief.
Mark6v5Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6And He marvelled because of their unbelief...….
Of course, this is the norm.Of course, this is the norm.Of course, this is the norm.In the norm it most certainly does, except when a Calvinist wants to twist scripturesYou are making out that Jesus is an idiot who doesn't know the correct language construction. When you or I use a conditional "if" in a sentence, we don't always know if the recipient is able to fulfil the condition.
But Jesus is omniscient and doesn't ask things that cannot be fulfilled, and you only have to read the context to see that Jesus fully expected the recipient to make his own decisionAlready answered, you're going round in circlesI've proved Jesus never opens the ears of people who are in unbelief.
God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.Makes no difference, Jesus still demands that individuals made their own choice.Its not offensive to Almighty God, he's got very broad shoulders. But it was meant to be offensive to nonsensical Calvinist heresy.But haven't you repeatedly told me that I am no friend of Jesus?Ah yes, that's where this Corona virus came from, too many people like me not taking your theological nonsense seriously!
Meanwhile, despite all your threats and dire warnings, I continue to walk in great peace and the abiding presence of the living God. I know he loves me, and always has, because its in his nature.

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First, Revelation is a book of prophecy, and you mishandle the book of Revelation by imposing your self will as metaphors into Revelation 3:14-22 which you fail to understand.

You persist in trying to add "heart" and choose Jesus into the passage but NEITHER ARE THERE; therefore, you are adding to the recorded words of the Apostle John in your daring self will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

In the passage, Jesus is warning the assembly at Laodicea again and again. In no wise does the passage indicate the warnings are executed as punishments.

In verse 20, Jesus is talking to the Assembly of God, the people who are already saved. You impose "Jesus seeking access to a man's heart" into the passage. You do not understand that Jesus is already in the heart of all the Assembly of God.

Even you your citation of Mark 6:5-6, "He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them", and Mark did not record that the sick people were believers; additionally, faith/belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God in persons (John 6:29), so for a person to believe God is already there in the person.

Jesus, the One who knows all things (John 16:30), knows who in the Assembly of God has been given the ability by God to accomplish the conditional to an "if" unto righteousness in God (John 3:21, John 15:5).

In your pride you say you choose Jesus in your opposition to the Word of God who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and your words are offensive to the Mighty God!

Since you daringly claim to claim to choose Jesus who says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16) right after He talks of friendship with His sheep (John 15:15), then you are no friend of Jesus.

Since you have added "heart" into the text by way of your writings, Francis Drake, and you have added "choose" or it's conjugates for man to choose God, these actions of your's shows that your heart longs to add to Revelation, and the Apostle John wrote of dire consequences for adding to and subtracting from the book "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Francis Drake said:

Here we go again, in trying to coerce me into bowing to your superior theology, you have told me repeatedly that I am no friend of Jesus, but @Kermos, what do you really know of my friendship with Jesus?
Did your "friendship with Jesus" really come from your perfect theology?

You obviously believe that your knowledge sets you in a higher place than me. That's fine, I'm not going to judge you, but before you get too settled in that high place, just consider this.-
Luke14v10But when you are invited, go and sit down in the lowest place, so that when he who invited you comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, go up higher.’ Then you will have glory in the presence of those who sit at the table with you. 11For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

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Take a closer look, Frandis Drake, that the one who summoned the people to the wedding feast is the one who said "Friend, go up higher" (Luke 14:8-11).

Now, back to Jesus who says "I have called you friends" in John 15:15 right in front of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so in your daring self will you deny the "you" in John 15:16 applies to you so neither does the "you" in John 15:15 by extension. Thus you claim to be no friend of Jesus christ.

Dorothy Mae said:

Does God choose who will be saved and they cannot not be saved? How is this done without him manipulating human choices?
Please provide the Bible referencde that says that Joshua has "already been covered" and what exactly does that mean and who was not covered at that time? The verse "I chose you" occurs once in the Bible. You are wrong about "choose whom you will serve" as occuring only once. It occured more than once.

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Dorothy Mae, this is a link to the time when Joshua 24:15 was addressed in this thread - the topic of "choose whom you will serve" has "already been covered" in this thread". Please take a look at the link, Dorothy Mae.

By the way, Dorothy Mae, "I chose you" does not equal "choose whom you will serve".

Here is an application of Joshua 24:15 for instruction for today, Dorothy Mae which is also a link to a post this thread.

First I want a scripture on where God said that Joshua was already covered and what that means. I cannot recall him saying to anyone that they were "already covered."
So those who do not cannot and yet God holds them responsible and will punish them eternally all because HE DID NOT WORK in them so they could. Is that your position? God blames them for not doing what they could not do unless He did something first.

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The first nature of man exposed and that nature is carnal without the intervention of the Living God (post in this thread)

I did above. You added to the word when you said Joshua was "already covered" although there isn't a single promise to Joshua that this was the case.
So one has to be born again before one can be born again? How come anyone, including Jesus, even bothered to preach to men as though they have a choice if God has to convert a man before he can be converted? This, is NOT in the Bible but you add it to the Word, again. It say a man has to be born again to SEE the kingdom of God, not born again in order to be born again. YOu changed the word there.

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I didn't indicate a person has to be converted to be converted. I write that God works repentance and belief and birth by the Spirit and deeds/fruit in His sheep.

The 2 Peter reference says no such thing. Read Luke 7. The woman washing Jesus feet with her fair was not even forgiven and she was worshipping him in her "self-willed" and uncoverted state. After she worshipped him, in her first nature, she was forgiven her sins. She chose him in her unconverted state and he then forgave her.

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Oh, Dorothy Mae, but 2 Peter 2:9-10 does say such a thing, and here it is "self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" such as when God Who is Jesus says "I have called you friends" in John 15:15 right in front of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so in your daring self will you deny the "you" in John 15:16 applies to you so neither does the "you" in John 15:15 by extension. Thus you claim to be no friend of Jesus christ.

By the way, Dorothy Mae, the English words "angelic majesties" comes from the Greek word "doxas" which truly means "glory" in 2 Peter 2:10 (Strong's Greek: 1391. δόξα (doxa) -- opinion (always good in N.T.), hence praise, honor, glory) - as in "self-willed, they do not tremble when they blaspheme glory".

I know this false theology. It sets up a straw man argument as though a man saved from something terrible thanks himself.

And your theology does not give any glory to God at all but accuses him of montrous evil. He chooses some for Heaven and some for hell and no man has the chance to change that destiny. You say you give glory to God but the whole theology is very insulting to Him and causes His enemies to exalt.

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You arrogantly assert God's unshared exclusive good glory in man's salvation (Isaiah 42:8) as "montrous evil"; moreover, you pridefully claim to choose Jesus in direct opposition to His words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Isaiah wrote woe to you who "call evil good, and good evil" (Isaiah 5:20).

Dorothy Mae said:

That was actually spoken to 12 men. He also had some things to say about Judas that are not universally applied to all he "chose" so it seems to be a matter of "this complimentary statment we take to mean for all of us but this one we do not." The fact that the Bible says that WE will stand in judgement means God holds us responsible for our choices, not himself.

And I take all of the Bible not just the bits that please. My scriptural references tell that this is what I do.

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Dorothy Mae said:

Please stop the personal attacks. It tells us your arguments are weak and you know it. Jesus said to his disciples, ALL of whom he chose, that one would betray him. Does that apply to us as well?

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First, Dorothy Mae, Judas had already left the room, so this fact proves that you do not take the Bible as a whole.

Second, Dorothy Mae, Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Since the Apostle Peter includes all believers in all time when Lord Jesus says "you" as recorded in Scripture, then this results in the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding all believers in all time. This includes God's exclusive choosing unto salvation.

May the Word of God open your eyes to His righteously holy Truth (John 14:6) in which He alone does all things exclusively in the saving of man from the wrath of God!

Kermos said:

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

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All through this thread, you have constantly claimed that man has no freewill to choose Christ or God for himself, but God has to do it for him.
Lets see how that worked out with Jeroboam.
I just wonder how are you going to manipulate this story to prove your Calvinism.

Ahijah the prophet goes out to meet Jeroboam in a field to give him the word of the Lord.
1Kings11v30Then Ahijah took hold of the new garment that was on him, and tore it into twelve pieces. 31And he said to Jeroboam, “Take for yourself ten pieces, for thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: ‘Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you 32(but he shall have one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel),
As punishment for Solomon's idolatry, God is planning to split Israel in two, ten northern tribes henceforth called Israel leaving behind Judah with just Benjamin.

33because they have forsaken Me, and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the people of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways to do what is right in My eyes and keep My statutes and My judgments, as did his father David. ...………………...

God's plan and purpose for Jeroboam is spelled out.
37So I will take you, and you shall reign over all your heart desires, and you shall be king over Israel. Take note of the words "all your heart desires" Jeroboam obviously had a free hand here.

God also gave a load of conditional promises to Jeroboam. ie. If you do this, I will do that.
Jeroboam had freewill choices to make, to serve God or not serve God, choices which would completely alter God's response to him. He could become God's friend like David or his enemy.
38Then it shall be, if you heed all that I command you, walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then I will be with you and build for you an enduring house, as I built for David, and will give Israel to you.
The desire of God was to make Jeroboam like King David, but would it happen? Again that was Jeroboam's freewill choice.

Reading on, we find that when Solomon dies, his son becomes very arrogant and his foolish taxation scheme splits the kingdom with the northern ten tribes proclaiming Jeroboam their new King, just as the prophet foretold.

But what of the conditional promises, does Jeroboam remember God's promises, does he choose the Lord and seek him?
1Kings12v26And Jeroboam said in his heart, “Now the kingdom may return to the house of David: 27If these people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn back to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah, and they will kill me and go back to Rehoboam king of Judah.”
Jeroboam is worried that the tribes will go to the temple in Jerusalem to worship and return to Rehoboam.

28Therefore the king asked advice, made two calves of gold, and said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt!” 29And he set up one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. 30Now this thing became a sin, for the people went to worship before the one as far as Dan. 31He made shrines on the high places, and made priests from every class of people, who were not of the sons of Levi.
Despite the prophetic words, part of which were already fulfilled when he became king, Jeroboam chooses to serve idols instead of Jehovah. He copied the sins which had already brought God's judgement on the house of Judah.

Throughout this story, Jeroboam has freewill to chose one way or another. If that were not true, the story becomes the senseless exercise of a cruel God.

Jeroboam's wicked choice leads Israel into generations of sin. In fact the subsequent chapters of the bible are littered with the phrase, "The sin of Jeroboam whereby he cause Israel to sin."

Kermos said:

Dorothy Mae, this is a link to the time when Joshua 24:15 was addressed in this thread - the topic of "choose whom you will serve" has "already been covered" in this thread". Please take a look at the link, Dorothy Mae.

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Please express your beliefs in your words. If you cannot do so there’s no use in discussing this with you. You don’t enough to even say what YOU believe.

By the way, Dorothy Mae, "I chose you" does not equal "choose whom you will serve".

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Sure. “Choose whom you will serve” applies to all men. “I chose you” applied to just 12. No NT Bible writer told the believers that God chose them.

Here is an application of Joshua 24:15 for instruction for today, Dorothy Mae which is also a link to a post this thread.

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If you don’t understand it well enough to express it then discussion with you is useless. You don’t know enough.

The first nature of man exposed and that nature is carnal without the intervention of the Living God (post in this thread)

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Where is “first nature of man” in any of the Biblical writers’ thoughts?

I didn't indicate a person has to be converted to be converted. I write that God works repentance and belief and birth by the Spirit and deeds/fruit in His sheep.

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Before or after conversion?

Oh, Dorothy Mae, but 2 Peter 2:9-10 does say such a thing, and here it is "self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties"

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That doesn’t describe all unbelievers though. That’s a problem you have.

such as when God Who is Jesus says "I have called you friends" in John 15:15 right in front of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16),

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doesn’t mean everyone who reads those words is the “you” in the sentence.

so in your daring self will you deny the "you" in John 15:16 applies to you so neither does the "you" in John 15:15 by extension.

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stop accusing me of evil falsely

Thus you claim to be no friend of Jesus christ.

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You judge “friend” by legal means. I just friend by those who share his burdens. Big difference.

By the way, Dorothy Mae, the English words "angelic majesties" comes from the Greek word "doxas" which truly means "glory" in 2 Peter 2:10 (Strong's Greek: 1391. δόξα (doxa) -- opinion (always good in N.T.), hence praise, honor, glory) - as in "self-willed, they do not tremble when they blaspheme glory".

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When you find some let us know.

You arrogantly assert God's unshared exclusive good glory in man's salvation

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Stop accusing me wrongly of evil.

(Isaiah 42:8) as "montrous evil"; moreover, you pridefully claim to choose Jesus in direct opposition to His words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Isaiah wrote woe to you who "call evil good, and good evil" (Isaiah 5:20).

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You do the very thing you accuse me of doing.

Francis Drake said:

All through this thread, you have constantly claimed that man has no freewill to choose Christ or God for himself, but God has to do it for him.
Lets see how that worked out with Jeroboam.
I just wonder how are you going to manipulate this story to prove your Calvinism.

Ahijah the prophet goes out to meet Jeroboam in a field to give him the word of the Lord.
1Kings11v30Then Ahijah took hold of the new garment that was on him, and tore it into twelve pieces. 31And he said to Jeroboam, “Take for yourself ten pieces, for thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: ‘Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you 32(but he shall have one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel),
As punishment for Solomon's idolatry, God is planning to split Israel in two, ten northern tribes henceforth called Israel leaving behind Judah with just Benjamin.

33because they have forsaken Me, and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the people of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways to do what is right in My eyes and keep My statutes and My judgments, as did his father David. ...………………...

God's plan and purpose for Jeroboam is spelled out.
37So I will take you, and you shall reign over all your heart desires, and you shall be king over Israel. Take note of the words "all your heart desires" Jeroboam obviously had a free hand here.

God also gave a load of conditional promises to Jeroboam. ie. If you do this, I will do that.
Jeroboam had freewill choices to make, to serve God or not serve God, choices which would completely alter God's response to him. He could become God's friend like David or his enemy.
38Then it shall be, if you heed all that I command you, walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then I will be with you and build for you an enduring house, as I built for David, and will give Israel to you.
The desire of God was to make Jeroboam like King David, but would it happen? Again that was Jeroboam's freewill choice.

Reading on, we find that when Solomon dies, his son becomes very arrogant and his foolish taxation scheme splits the kingdom with the northern ten tribes proclaiming Jeroboam their new King, just as the prophet foretold.

But what of the conditional promises, does Jeroboam remember God's promises, does he choose the Lord and seek him?
1Kings12v26And Jeroboam said in his heart, “Now the kingdom may return to the house of David: 27If these people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn back to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah, and they will kill me and go back to Rehoboam king of Judah.”
Jeroboam is worried that the tribes will go to the temple in Jerusalem to worship and return to Rehoboam.

28Therefore the king asked advice, made two calves of gold, and said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt!” 29And he set up one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. 30Now this thing became a sin, for the people went to worship before the one as far as Dan. 31He made shrines on the high places, and made priests from every class of people, who were not of the sons of Levi.
Despite the prophetic words, part of which were already fulfilled when he became king, Jeroboam chooses to serve idols instead of Jehovah. He copied the sins which had already brought God's judgement on the house of Judah.

Throughout this story, Jeroboam has freewill to chose one way or another. If that were not true, the story becomes the senseless exercise of a cruel God.

Jeroboam's wicked choice leads Israel into generations of sin. In fact the subsequent chapters of the bible are littered with the phrase, "The sin of Jeroboam whereby he cause Israel to sin."

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I am not a Calvinist, so I'll just skip that.

I am a Christian because I follow Christ.

According to the Word of God, Jesus Christ Himself, man has no freewill to choose Christ or God for himself because Jesus Christ Himself says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which is clearly about salvation as well as He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) in the same passge.

On the other hand, in your self will you daringly blaspheme Glory (2 Peter 2:9-10) for in unrighteous you claim to choose Jesus when the King of Glory says "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" in response to the disciples question of "Then who can be saved" (Matthew 19:25-26).

Those who daringly blespheme against Glory, well, the Lord knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Only the Power of God can extract the self willed from the wrath of God!

Dorothy Mae said:

Please express your beliefs in your words. If you cannot do so there’s no use in discussing this with you. You don’t enough to even say what YOU believe.
Sure. “Choose whom you will serve” applies to all men.

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I am a Christian because I follow Christ. I believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent!

Joshua issues a series of commands:
- "Now therefore fear the LORD"
- "and serve him in sincerity and in truth"
- "and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt"
- "and serve ye the LORD"
(Joshua 24:14)

There is no mention of "choice" nor "free will" towards God in Joshua 24:14; furthermore, a command does not convey ability.

Next, Joshua expresses a conditional logic statement in Joshua 24:15, and a conditional logic statement is normally an IF/THEN construct.

IF condition THEN predicate

Stated in a more focused fashion.

IF you_do_this THEN that_will_happen

Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).

A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.

Now, the conditional logic statement Joshua expressed was "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD" which contains no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God (Joshua 24:15). The conditional logic statement Joshua expressed states the condition/nature of the person.

In the predicate Joshua provides only false gods for those people whose nature is against the LORD, for Joshua said "choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell" (Joshua 24:15).

Finaly, Joshua states "but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD", and there is no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God (Joshua 24:15).

There is no choice towards God mentioned.

As for the next link I provided, here you go Dorothy Mae.

"It is disagreeable in my sight to believe the LORD Who declares God chooses man not man chooses God unto salvation and sanctification" (John 15:16-19, "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD" [Joshua 24:15]) says the self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10), so that leaves only false gods for the choosing by the self willed person (John 15:16-19, "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living" [Joshua 24:15]), Lord Jesus declares that His House serves the LORD (Matthew 21:13 and John 10:27-30, "as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" [Joshua 24:15]). Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19); therefore, all the "choosing" is God's alone with respect to the saving grace upon man!

"I chose you" applied to just 12. No NT Bible writer told the believers that God chose them.

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Wrong on both counts, Dorothy Mae, plus another count of error against you is that Judas left the supper room as recorded in John 13:30 (so you do not take the Bible as a whole as you previously claimed).

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Since the Apostle Peter includes all believers in all time when Lord Jesus says "you" as recorded in Scripture, then this results in the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding all believers in all time.

If you don’t understand it well enough to express it then discussion with you is useless. You don’t know enough.
Where is “first nature of man” in any of the Biblical writers’ thoughts?

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A fundamental Christian teaching must explicitly be stated which is man's default nature being carnal and unrighteous.

Our merciful and loving God is Benefactor, and we believers are beneficiaries

God is mercifully loving to save any of the rebellious persons, we beneficiaries

FOR the first nature of all men is enmity against God

MOREOVER, that first nature, the default nature, the enemy against God nature is sometimes referred to as the sin nature

AND that is just like the first man, Adam, from the earth, earthy (1 Corinthians 15:47)

FOR through Adam sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men (Romans 5:12)

AND respecting the first nature all people have no choice in the matter, all people enter life with the sin nature (Colossians 1:13-14, Colossians 1:21-22)

YET people in the first nature are incapable of pleasing God (Romans 8:8)

AND people of the sin nature cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14)

SO God's regeneration of men in the renewing by the Holy Spirit results in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17, Titus 3:5)

AND by the act of God, the old things passed away while the new creature has come (2 Corinthians 5:17)

AND the "old things", the first and default nature, is carnal/darkness/wicked/evil/dead/natural - in/by/of/for man

BUT the "new things", the God imparted nature, is Spirit/Light/righteous/good/life/eternal - in/by/of/for Christ

SO the "new creature" is made holy by the Holy God named Jesus Christ

AND the "new creature" is in Christ, and only the "new creature", we born again by God, are in Christ

AND in Christ all will be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22)

God's merciful and loving actions as Benefactor are beautiful

FOR the Son of God established the Testament (Hebrews 9:16, Luke 22:20)

THUS Jesus the Lord proved His position of Benefactor in the Testament (John 12:31-33)

Our gracious Benefactor produces divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God

Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God

Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says

"he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is by/of/through God

Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is by/of/through God

We beneficiaries are blessed receivers from the amazingly awesome Benefactor

THE BENEFACTOR ESTABLISHES A DEEPLY LOVING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE BENEFICIARY. PRAISE BE TO THE LIVING GOD!

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus

BECAUSE He said "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)

AND Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus

AND Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)

AND All these words of Jesus are at the same supper

SO all glory is God's

AND with man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)

AND all glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

Before or after conversion?
That doesn’t describe all unbelievers though. That’s a problem you have.

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I didn't say it did, Dorothy Mae. I do say "daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they blaspheme Glory" with the Apostle Peter for such people claim to choose Jesus in daring oppostion to the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

The LORD says "I will not give My glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8).

The LORD commands "you shall not steal" (Exodus 20:15).

You are guilty of trying to steal God's glory.

The LORD commands "You shall have no other gods before Me"

You are guilty of putting your unscriptural choice before God.

Jesus is the King of Glory, and you daring self will you claim to choose Jesus, you claim to do the very opposite of that which King Jesus says you cannot do and the Apostle Peter says the "you" spoken ot the disciples applies to all believers in all time.

doesn’t mean everyone who reads those words is the “you” in the sentence.

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And, you are excluded from the "you" in John 15:15 since you claim to be excluded from the "you" in John 15:16.

stop accusing me of evil falsely

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I made no false accusation. I cite the Word of God.

You judge “friend” by legal means. I just friend by those who share his burdens. Big difference.

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I say a person is a friend of Jesus by the Power of God, such as "I have called you friends" (John 15:15). You say you choose to be Jesus friend despite the next thing Jesus says after talking about "friends" is "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16). According to you by extension neither "you" applies to you, so you are no friend of Jesus.

When you find some let us know.

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Dorothy Mae, you are a self willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) who daringly claims to choose Jesus the King of Glory in spite of His word "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not coose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Stop accusing me wrongly of evil.
You do the very thing you accuse me of doing.

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I have made no wrong accusation.

You arrogantly assert God's unshared exclusive good glory in man's salvation (John 15:16, Isaiah 42:8) as "montrous evil" (your words about God); moreover, you pridefully claim to choose Jesus in direct opposition to His words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Isaiah wrote woe to you who "call evil good, and good evil" (Isaiah 5:20).

Kermos said:

I am not a Calvinist, so I'll just skip that.

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OK, if you're not a Calvinist, why do you constantly quote his false doctrines?
And why have you avoided the Jeroboam question?

I am a Christian because I follow Christ.

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I'm not going to argue whether you are a Christian or not, but the doctrine you keep pushing is from a different Christ
And why don't you answer my Jeroboam question?

According to the Word of God, Jesus Christ Himself, man has no freewill to choose Christ or God for himself because Jesus Christ Himself says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which is clearly about salvation as well as He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) in the same passage.

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Your foolish interpretation of that verse is destroyed by countless other scriptures, such as the choice God gave Jeroboam, which you neatly sidestep.
Jesus first started calling his disciples when he met them at John's baptism, which was a baptism of repentance. Therefore the disciples were already born again believers when he first met them.
His calling was to follow him as disciples, not salvation.

On the other hand, in your self will you daringly blaspheme Glory (2 Peter 2:9-10)

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Yet again you tell me that I deserve damnation for blasphemy.
2Peter2v9then the Lord knows to deliver the devout out of temptation and to keep the unrighteous being punished unto the day of judgment, 10and especially those walking after the flesh in the passion of defilement and despising authority. Bold, self-willed, they do not tremble blaspheming glorious ones,
The problem for you is that I am not blaspheming glory. I do however intentionally "blaspheme" your godless man made doctrines.

for in unrighteous you claim to choose Jesus when the King of Glory says "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" in response to the disciples question of "Then who can be saved" (Matthew 19:25-26).

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Oh dear oh dear, that's a truly useless verse to prove your point. Did you read the context before posting it?
Here's the start of the story,
Matt19v16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”
Obviously the man thought he could earn his way by good deeds into eternal life. Never for one moment have I suggested that or defended that idea.

Those who daringly blespheme against Glory, well, the Lord knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment (2 Peter 2:9-10).

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Wow, twice in the same post you list me for damnation. I'm scoring big today.

Only the Power of God can extract the self willed from the wrath of God!

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Of course, if I believed your doctrines of demons, I could just say its all God's fault that I don't believe you.

BTW, any chance you'll actually answer the points about Jeroboam's freewill choices?

Kermos said:

I am not a Calvinist, so I'll just skip that.

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You do a good imitation.

I am a Christian because I follow Christ.

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That’s not so well imitated.

According to the Word of God, Jesus Christ Himself, man has no freewill to choose Christ or God for himself because Jesus Christ Himself says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)

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Jesus said to them that one would betray him. That includes you too? He also said to the 12 that one of them is a devil. That include the believers today??
[quoteWwhich is clearly about salvation [/quote] Not at all. Zehrt were chosen to be his a p o s t l e s.

as well as He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) in the same passge.

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To be disciples/apostles, not for salvation. He didn’t say that to the 70 followers. He didn’t say that to everyone.

On the other hand, in your self will you daringly blaspheme Glory (2 Peter 2:9-10) for in unrighteous you claim to choose Jesus when the King of Glory says "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" in response to the disciples question of "Then who can be saved" (Matthew 19:25-26).

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Met hundreds of 1000s of Christians in my life and not one ever boasted in glaring self will that they saved themselves by choice. I know this straw man argument well.

Those who daringly blespheme against Glory, well, the Lord knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment (2 Peter 2:9-10).

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Woa! Sounds like you want those who disagree with your theology to burn. We know where this one’s from.

Only the Power of God can extract the self willed from the wrath of God!

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Wheres the Bible quote on that? Sounds like a lobotomy.

The truth is we are required of our own free will to SURRENDER.