IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

Dorothy Mae

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That is not true. Your words are from man. I speak words that are given to me from above. I need not to testify of myself when I have a witness who is greater than me.
Your personal attacks show a different source.
 
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Francis Drake

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The Prophet Jeremiah declares "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" (Jeremiah 17:9), but self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim to "open their heart to Jesus" thus to "let" Him into their heart,
Paul says otherwise.
Despite the iniquity of his heart, man is always able to respond to God's mercy!
Whether they respond or reject, that's always been their freewill choice and as Paul says, "they are without excuse"

Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

According to Paul, men have always possessed the truth within themselves. Otherwise how can man supress truth if he doesn't already have it?

19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Again according to Paul, God has been revealed to all men, before they make any decision.

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,...…...
And again, since Eden, the invisible almighty God has been clearly seen by all men, should they so wish! The choice to believe is theirs alone.

..............being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Paul makes it absolutely clear that man knows and understands the truth. That's why there will be no excuses at the judgement!
 
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Francis Drake

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Holy means "set apart". Christ means Messiah means anointed. Lord Jesus Christ is the Holy One of God (John 6:69). Jesus is the Set Apart Anointed King of the Kingdom of God.
All very interesting and true, but says nothing in support of your false doctrine.
It is written "Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm." (1 Chronicles 16:22, Psalm 105:15),
Again interesting but no aid to your falsehood.
but self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim to touch God's Anointed One Jesus with their free will choice of grabbing Jesus while they are in their first nature (post in this thread); additionally, the self willed persons try to harm the Word of God Prophet Jesus Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) as they contradict Jesus in their unrighteous claim of choosing Jesus thus the self willed persons revile angelic majesties (2 Peter 2:9-10).
Thankfully, this Canaanite woman had never heard of your false doctrines.

Matt15v22And behold, a Canaanite woman from the same region having approached, was crying out saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is miserably possessed by a demon.”
If she was not able to make choices, what on earth was she hoping to achieve?

23But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples having approached, were imploring Him, saying, “Dismiss her, for she cries out after us!”
The "chosen" disciples obviously knew this revolting Canaanite was definitely not chosen. "Get rid of her Jesus, she stinks".

24And answering He said, “I was sent only to those being lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
And there's the proof, Jesus makes it abundantly clear that she was definitely not one of the chosen, unlike his disciples.

25And having come, she was worshiping Him saying, “Lord, help me!”
How dare she worship him, she's not allowed to have faith, Calvin and @Kermos said so.

26And answering He said, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and to cast it to the dogs.”
Again Jesus appears to reject her, she's definitely not the right sort. The Jews are God's "children" and she is just a "dog" in their eyes. That's sure to shut her up!

27And she said, “Yes Lord, but even the dogs eat the crumbs falling from their masters’ table.”
Ooops, maybe even a dog can have faith! Didn't expect that to happen!

28Then Jesus answering said to her, “O woman, great is your faith. It shall be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Great is your faith?
Oh no, no way, she can't be allowed to have faith.
Only Jesus has faith, Matthew must have got it wrong when he wrote it down.

Truth be told, long before the foundation of the earth, Jesus knew those who were his. On this occasion, the Son of Man, or Son of David as she calls Jesus, a title of the Messiah, wanders past the end of her street, knowing what would happen.
Jesus wanted to show to his disciples (and us), that there were countless people around the world who were alive to God, a lesson the Hebrews should have learned from Rahab the godly Harlot!
 
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Kermos

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Lord Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3), and the Christ is here talking of being converted (Matthew 18:3), but self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim to see the Kingdom of God in in their unconverted state, their first nature (post in this thread), and they proceed from bad to worse by claiming they choose Jesus in their unconverted state, yet Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), converts His sheep into His sheep (John 15:5, John 15:15, John 15:16, John 15:19, John 10:27-30). In the intellect of the self-willed person's unconverted first nature they defiantly use the words "I chose Jesus" in direct opposition to the words of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19); therefore, it is prudent to declare these words of Jesus "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
 
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Kermos

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@Francis Drake @CharismaticLady @BNR32FAN @Dorothy Mae and @timothyu

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Since the Apostle Peter includes all believers in all time when Lord Jesus says "you" as recorded in Scripture, then this results in the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding all believers in all time.

May the Word of God open your eyes to His righteously holy Truth (John 14:6) in which He alone does all things exclusively in the saving of man from the wrath of God!
 
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Francis Drake

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Another diatribe @Kermos, but again, saying nothing of use that aids your cause.

@Francis Drake @CharismaticLady @BNR32FAN @Dorothy Mae and @timothyu

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).
I love the story of Cornelius, it shows there's hope for everyone.
Here's this guy, in the eyes of most Jews a despicable unclean thug, but God loved him because he was humble before him.
At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).
According to what the Lord said in Peter's vision, Cornelius was already fully cleansed, prior to Peter being sent to meet him.
Acts10v34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Cornelius was acceptable to God because he chose to fear Him, not because Peter came along.
 
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Francis Drake

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Just wondering who is in charge of the door in this scripture?

Rev3v20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone should hear My voice and open the door, then I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21The one overcoming, I will give to him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

If its not our choice, why doesn't Jesus just kick the door down and force the situation like Calvinists keep telling us he does?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Lord Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3), and the Christ is here talking of being converted (Matthew 18:3), but self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim to see the Kingdom of God in in their unconverted state, their first nature (post in this thread), and they proceed from bad to worse by claiming they choose Jesus in their unconverted state, yet Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), converts His sheep into His sheep (John 15:5, John 15:15, John 15:16, John 15:19, John 10:27-30). In the intellect of the self-willed person's unconverted first nature they defiantly use the words "I chose Jesus" in direct opposition to the words of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19); therefore, it is prudent to declare these words of Jesus "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
I notice you have to add to the text to make it say that God manipulates all human choices. Of course you use nicer sounding words. But since no text says this, you rewrite the Bible.

Choose this day whom you will serve comes from the Bible. Occurs more then once.

Jesus told us to pray his will be done because we are not forced to do His will.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Another diatribe @Kermos, but again, saying nothing of use that aids your cause.


I love the story of Cornelius, it shows there's hope for everyone.
Here's this guy, in the eyes of most Jews a despicable unclean thug, but God loved him because he was humble before him.

According to what the Lord said in Peter's vision, Cornelius was already fully cleansed, prior to Peter being sent to meet him.
Acts10v34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Cornelius was acceptable to God because he chose to fear Him, not because Peter came along.
Cornelius made choices and God made choices based on the man’s choices.
 
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Francis Drake

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Cornelius made choices and God made choices based on the man’s choices.
That's the way it goes.
But being God, he knows the choices we will make an eternity before we are born.
 
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Kermos

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Just wondering who is in charge of the door in this scripture?

Rev3v20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone should hear My voice and open the door, then I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21The one overcoming, I will give to him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

If its not our choice, why doesn't Jesus just kick the door down and force the situation like Calvinists keep telling us he does?

Please note that Revelation 3:20 is spoken to an Assembly referring to the door of the Assembly, not the door of an individual; moreover, there is no mention of choice to open the door, rather only a one with ears opened by Jesus is emlivened by the Spirit of God to be able to act righteously (John 3:3-8, John 3:21, John 15:5).

Your metaphoraical "just kick the door down" is offensive, for when Jesus comes His friends, He says things like this to His loved ones "Peace [be] with you." (John 20:19) and "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) - to His own sheep who "the doors were shut where the disciples were" (John 20:19) when He said these things!
 
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Kermos

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I notice you have to add to the text to make it say that God manipulates all human choices. Of course you use nicer sounding words. But since no text says this, you rewrite the Bible.

Choose this day whom you will serve comes from the Bible. Occurs more then once.

Jesus told us to pray his will be done because we are not forced to do His will.

Hmm, I didn't write that God manipulates all human choices. Your failure to cite scripture to support choice toward God is very telling about you, Dorothy Mae.

By the way, Choose this day whom you will serve comes from the Bible occurs once in the Bible, and the single occurrence of Joshua 24:15 has already been covered and shown to not include choice toward God (post in this thread).

Here is another post about the relevance of Jushua 24:15 to now (post in this thread).

The only way a person can righteously pray for God's will be done is by the working of God in such a person for Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

You fail to identify where I added to the Word of God, and I state that you neglected to do so because there is no place that I added to the Word of God.

Let me recap that which is the Word of God:

Lord Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3), and the Christ is here talking of being converted (Matthew 18:3), but self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim to see the Kingdom of God in in their unconverted state, their first nature (post in this thread), and they proceed from bad to worse by claiming they choose Jesus in their unconverted state, yet Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), converts His sheep into His sheep (John 15:5, John 15:15, John 15:16, John 15:19, John 10:27-30). In the intellect of the self-willed person's unconverted first nature they defiantly use the words "I chose Jesus" in direct opposition to the words of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19); therefore, it is prudent to declare these words of Jesus "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
 
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Kermos

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Cornelius made choices and God made choices based on the man’s choices.

That's the way it goes.
But being God, he knows the choices we will make an eternity before we are born.

Except, the Word of God states "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), so both of your lack of scriptural citation for choice towards God is very telling about you.
 
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Kermos

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Another diatribe @Kermos, but again, saying nothing of use that aids your cause.


I love the story of Cornelius, it shows there's hope for everyone.
Here's this guy, in the eyes of most Jews a despicable unclean thug, but God loved him because he was humble before him.

According to what the Lord said in Peter's vision, Cornelius was already fully cleansed, prior to Peter being sent to meet him.
Acts10v34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Cornelius was acceptable to God because he chose to fear Him, not because Peter came along.

The Apostle Peter did not say that "Cornelius was acceptable to God because he chose to fear Him" as you assert.

Luke recorded "a devout man and one who feared God with all his household" (Acts 10:2), so Luke does not say that "Cornelius was acceptable to God because he chose to fear Him".

Neither Peter nor Luke indicated "Cornelius was already fully cleansed, prior to Peter being sent to meet him".

I would encourage you to read the Acts 10:34-35 again, Francis Drake, and if God is willing then you'll see that neither "chose to fear him" nor "fully cleansed" appear. In fact, I'll post it here with more context, Francis Drake:

"Opening his mouth, Peter said: 'I most certainly understand [now] that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all) - you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed'" (Acts 10:34-37)

So, at Cornelius' place, they were already aware of the Word of God, Jesus Christ. Paul wrote "So faith from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17).

Let's jump forward to where Peter explains the same event while he clearly states "we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are" (Acts 15:11). Grace is unearned love, but a "choice toward God" that brings about a required reciprocal accepting by God is a trade, a transaction by which grace becomes "earned".

I'd like to return to the focal point, Francis Drake. The topic is the audience which the word "you" represents when Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) after which the Apostle Peter said regarding the Gentiles including Cornelius "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Since the Apostle Peter includes all believers in all time when Lord Jesus says "you" as recorded in Scripture, then this results in the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding all believers in all time.

May the Word of God open your eyes to His righteously holy Truth (John 14:6) in which He alone does all things exclusively in the saving of man from the wrath of God!
 
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Francis Drake

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Please note that Revelation 3:20 is spoken to an Assembly referring to the door of the Assembly, not the door of an individual;
That is an outrageous perversion of the plain and simple text and you know it.
The letter is initially aimed at the assembly (you) but changes to an individual person (He) at v20, as the Greek Text also make obvious.
moreover, there is no mention of choice to open the door, rather only a one with ears opened by Jesus is emlivened by the Spirit of God to be able to act righteously
Again you pervert the simple text.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Jesus wants entry into the man's heart, but it is entirely conditional on the man's choice whether to open up to him.
The free choice the man has to open the door, or not to, is contained in the simple word "if". Here's what Strong's Concordance says about "if".
1437 eán (a conjunction, derived from 1487 /ei, "if" and 302 /án, a particle showing a statement is conditional) – if, referring to a condition extending to its "spin-off" possibilities – i.e. that happen if the condition is actualized or is valid.
Your metaphoraical "just kick the door down" is offensive,
It was intended to be offensive, offensive to the false doctrines you preach. Your theology has Jesus kicking doors down and forcing people to become believers against their will.
 
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Francis Drake

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Except, the Word of God states "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), so both of your lack of scriptural citation for choice towards God is very telling about you.
I have refuted this nonsense countless times.
Jesus was not calling them to get saved or converted, they were already believers and he was simply calling them to discipleship. The proof is in the words of the verse you endlessly spout.
John15v16You did not chose Me, but I chose you and appointed you, that you should go and you should bear fruit, and your fruit should remain, so that whatever you might ask the Father in My name, He may give you.
As can be seen, he is calling them that they should go out in his name and bear fruit, which is exactly what they did.

The disciples were already walking with God before Jesus called them, some had been the Baptist's disciples before they met Jesus.

John15v16 says absolutely nothing about Jesus calling them to salvation, and to claim otherwise is plain deception.
 
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The Apostle Peter did not say that "Cornelius was acceptable to God because he chose to fear Him" as you assert.

Luke recorded "a devout man and one who feared God with all his household" (Acts 10:2), so Luke does not say that "Cornelius was acceptable to God because he chose to fear Him".

Neither Peter nor Luke indicated "Cornelius was already fully cleansed, prior to Peter being sent to meet him".
Acts10v15And a voice came again to him for the second time: “What God has cleansed, you do not call common.”
What's so difficult about this @Kermos, it looks pretty straight forward to me that Cornelius was cleansed by God long before Peter even left the tanner's house.
But then, you love to throw confusion into the simplest of things.
 
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That is an outrageous perversion of the plain and simple text and you know it.
The letter is initially aimed at the assembly (you) but changes to an individual person (He) at v20, as the Greek Text also make obvious.

Again you pervert the simple text.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Jesus wants entry into the man's heart, but it is entirely conditional on the man's choice whether to open up to him.
The free choice the man has to open the door, or not to, is contained in the simple word "if". Here's what Strong's Concordance says about "if".
1437 eán (a conjunction, derived from 1487 /ei, "if" and 302 /án, a particle showing a statement is conditional) – if, referring to a condition extending to its "spin-off" possibilities – i.e. that happen if the condition is actualized or is valid.

It was intended to be offensive, offensive to the false doctrines you preach. Your theology has Jesus kicking doors down and forcing people to become believers against their will.

Let's search for the word "heart" in the passage:

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
15 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
17 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and [that] the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.'"
(Revelation 3:14-22)

The word "heart" is not there, Francis Drake. Lord Jesus says "if anyone hears My voice and opens the door" (Revelation 3:20) and Lord Jesus opens the ears of the deaf (Matthew 11:5, Mark 7:32); therefore, for a person to hear the voice of the Lord, the Lord must open the ears, and the phrase "if anyone hears My voice" occurs first in the sentence.

A conditional is normally an IF/THEN construct.

IF you_do_this THEN that_will_happen

Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).

A conditional does not inherently convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.

Even the definition of "if" that you posts shows that if demonstrates possibilities not abilities per se.

Now, search for "choose" or it's conjugates in Revelation 3:14-22, and the verb "choose" or it's conjugates are absent, but you add "choose" or it's conjugates to the passage.

As I wrote previously, this is to an assembly, Laodicea to be precise (Revelation 3:14). and the conclusion of the passage states "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies" (Revelation 3:22), and Lord Jesus opens the ears of the deaf (Matthew 11:5, Mark 7:32).

It is clear that Jesus narrows down to "him" and "he", but Jesus restrains the context to the Assembly of God which means that the Spirit of God is already there for the "him" and "he" in Revelation 3:14-22.

Your metaphoraical "just kick the door down" is offensive to God Almighty, for when Jesus comes to His friends, He says things like this to His loved ones "Peace [be] with you." (John 20:19) and "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) - to His own sheep who "the doors were shut where the disciples were" (John 20:19) when He said these things!

Since you have added "heart" into the text by way of your writings, Francis Drake, and you have added "choose" or it's conjugates for man to choose God, these actions of your's shows that your heart longs to add to Revelation, and the Apostle John wrote of dire consequences for adding to and subtracting from the book "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).
 
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