Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

  • I am a Universalist. All will eventually be saved by God's grace.

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Not with you, apparently.

But this is the issue we have been looking at. To be saved does not mean that you are made automatically and eternally sinless; it means that you have sworn off indifference to sin. But so long as we are mortal, we are vulnerable to temptation.

I am not denying that Christians can potentially stumble on rare occasion into sin in this life, but it grievous sin should not be a way of life for him or her. Christians must overcome grievous sin as a part of their normal walk with God. For...

The same Paul who wrote Romans 7:14-24 is the same Paul who wrote Galatians 5:24 who says, "they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

The same Paul who wrote Romans 7:14-24 is the same Paul who wrote 2 Corinthians 7:1 that says, "let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

The same Paul who wrote Romans 7:14-24 is the same Paul who wrote Romans 8:13 that says, "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

The same Paul who wrote Romans 7:14-24 is the same Paul who wrote Titus 1:16 that says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

The same Paul who wrote Romans 7:14-24 is the same Paul who wrote Titus 2:11-12 that says, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I am not denying that Christians can stumble on rare occasion into sin in this life,
Is it then possible to 'stumble' seven times seventy times , as Jesus made mention of, or was that something totally different ?
 
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For further clarification, (hopefully),

when people were saved from the Titanic sinking,
were they saved by the clothes they had on?
were they saved by the language they spoke ?
were they saved by having relatives in England ?
were they saved by knowing 2 + 2 = 4 ?

Or were all those things part of their life, but not what saved them ?

Note the difference in those who drowned/died, vs those who were saved from the sinking and lived.

Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith is not a one time event alone like with those who were saved from the Titanic sinking. Salvation is an ever present thing a believer needs every day. For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (See: Philippians 2:12).

Also, it is written:

24 "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
(1 Corinthians 9:24-27).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

"If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing"
(1 Peter 4:18-19).
 
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Is it then possible to 'stumble' seven times seventy times , as Jesus made mention of, or was that something totally different ?

I am not denying that certain believers (not all) can battle with sin. I believe a Christian will not stay defeated in their sin confessing it their whole lives. I believe a Christian will in time overcome their grievous sin by trusting in God's grace and by entering the Sanctification Process. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.
 
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To all:

We cannot pick and choose those verses or passages we prefer to see while ignoring others. We must accept the whole counsel of God's Word (even if we may not like those other verses or passages). We must figure out a way to reconcile how both are true (i.e. Both Grace for salvation verses and Sanctification for salvation verses).
 
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Albion

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I am not denying that Christians can potentially stumble on rare occasion into sin in this life, but it grievous sin should not be a way of life for him or her.

...and so we come to apparent agreement. At least so far as what you have said here goes.

I see in your reply to another poster that you still want to hold out for the ability of some believers to live a sinless life--if we talk only about "grievous" sin, that is.
 
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frumanchu

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To all:

The predominant view of Salvation here in America is Sola Fide or Faith Alone (i.e. which comes from Protestantism). Yet, Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. We cannot follow the large crowd, but we have to follow the narrow way that the Bible teaches. This narrow is both God's grace, and Sanctification. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Your assertion is based on flawed logic. Just because 49% of Americans self-identify as Protestant does not mean they believe in or affirm sola fide. Most equate Protestant to "not Roman Catholic" but you'll find very few of them even understand what the doctrine of sola fide means let alone affirm it. All you're doing is creating one giant straw man here.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Albion

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Your assertion is based on flawed logic. Just because 49% of Americans self-identify as Protestant does not mean they believe in or affirm sola fide.
Almost all Protestant churches/denominations DO affirm Sola Fide, however.

That is the case, even if the average member does not normally use that term to describe his belief in salvation through a commitment to Christ by Faith.
 
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frumanchu

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Almost all Protestant churches/denominations DO affirm Sola Fide, however.

That is the case, even if the average member does not normally use that term to describe his belief in salvation through a commitment to Christ by Faith.

Those denominations whose creeds still affirm sola fide would indeed be considered at least historically Protestant. Many no longer do, some do but teach something much different in the pulpit. Regardless, the assertion was that the predominant view among American Christians was sola fide and I believe that to be a false assertion.
 
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Albion

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Those denominations whose creeds still affirm sola fide would indeed be considered at least historically Protestant. Many no longer do, some do but teach something much different in the pulpit.
I'd have to see something specific to think that's true. You are saying that "many" pastors preach works righteousness instead of salvation by Faith--in Protestant churches. And I suppose it depends on what "many" would mean, also.

Regardless, the assertion was that the predominant view among American Christians was sola fide and I believe that to be a false assertion.
I believe it to be a correct assessment of what the average American PROTESTANT believes. That's also what I thought you were speaking about--Protestants, not all American Christians ("Just because 49% of Americans self-identify as Protestant does not mean they believe in or affirm sola fide.")
 
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...and so we come to apparent agreement. At least so far as what you have said here goes.

I don't believe we are in agreement. You believe a Christian cannot lose salvation via by grievous sin. I do (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8). I believe a Christian has to confess (to Jesus) and forsake sin in order to have forgiveness or spiritual life again (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Proverbs 28:13).

I see in your reply to another poster that you still want to hold out for the ability of some believers to live a sinless life--if we talk only about "grievous" sin, that is.

A Christian's goal is to overcome all manner of sin (Whether it be grievous sin that leads to spiritual death, or minor infractions of faults of character that do not lead to spiritual death). See: 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, 2 Corinthians 7:1, etc.
 
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frumanchu

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I don't believe we are in agreement. You believe a Christian cannot lose salvation via by sin.
Correct, because a Christian is IN CHRIST and is saved by HIS righteousness.

We also understand that being freed from our sin nature does not mean it is eradicated, and that we will continue to struggle against sin throughout our lives even as we pursue righteousness in gratitude to the grace of our Lord.

I do. I believe a Christian has to confess (to Jesus) and forsake sin in order to have forgiveness or spiritual life again (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Proverbs 28:13).

How incredibly sad for you and those who believe as you do. It's not enough to be grieved by your continued struggle against the flesh, you have the Sword of Damocles hanging over you every moment. Unless, of course, you're assuaging your conscience by convincing yourself you're actually free of sin....

A Christian's goal is to overcome all manner of sin (Whether it be grievous sin that leads to spiritual death, or minor infractions of faults of character that do not lead to spiritual death). See: 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, 2 Corinthians 7:1, etc.

Yes, but his motivation is out of gratitude, not out of fear. It's an attitude of contrition, not attrition.
 
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Those denominations whose creeds still affirm sola fide would indeed be considered at least historically Protestant. Many no longer do, some do but teach something much different in the pulpit. Regardless, the assertion was that the predominant view among American Christians was sola fide and I believe that to be a false assertion.

Here in the United States:

1. Baptists (Protestants) number about 50 million.
Source: Google.
2. Pentecostals (Who identify as Protestant) number at about 9.7 million.
Source: Google.

I have discussed Once Saved Always Saved, and Belief Alone-ism for almost 10 years now both online and in person.

Pentecostals are the only ones I have discussed with online and in person who have confirmed that they believe in Sanctification (holy living, works, putting away sin) as a part of salvation. But they are not in the majority. Baptists are for Once Saved Always Saved. Only Free Will Baptists deny OSAS (50,000 members), and yet they also believe they can sin and still be saved. They believe a person can only fall away by rejecting Christ. I do not know of any Baptists who deny Sola Fide, and they are the largest Protestant group in America.

SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) is considered the largest Protestant denomination with 15.7 million members.

See this source here (at Google), and this source here.

According to SBC's official site, they state this:

"Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. …All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end."

Source:
Southern Baptist Convention > Basic Beliefs

This sounds like, "Once Saved Always Saved." or "Perseverance of the Saints."

In fact, 30% of the Southern Baptist Convention are Calvinists. That is 4.7 million. Presbyterians (Calvinists) have about 1,352,678 active members as of 2018. United Church of Christ (Calvinists) make up about 1 million members. That's about 7 million Calvinists. There are about a couple hundred thousand more Calvinist members in various different Calvinistic churches. Needless to say that 7 million plus is a fairly large number and it is popular.

All Calvinists (Reformed Protestants) I have discussed with on Soteriology believe that salvation cannot be lost. Meaning, if a believer falls into sin, they are still saved. So holiness is thrown out the window because it treats sin as being no real danger at all.

Conclusion:

Most Protestant churches hold to Once Saved Always Saved or a form of Belief Alone-ism for salvation. Abiding in sin does not mean one is not saved. But on the flip side, this means they are not living holy if they are abiding in sin. This means holiness is not really a requirement for salvation or in proving one is truly saved. Holy living or holiness teaching is just a smoke screen. It's not the same type of holy living described in the Bible.

Jesus said narrow is the way, and FEW be there that finds it.
I am going to bet that most have it wrong when it comes to Soteriology based on what Jesus said.
 
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Those denominations whose creeds still affirm sola fide would indeed be considered at least historically Protestant. Many no longer do, some do but teach something much different in the pulpit. Regardless, the assertion was that the predominant view among American Christians was sola fide and I believe that to be a false assertion.

Charles Stanley is a part of the Southern Baptist Convention:

He teaches a license for immorality. He states,

""Sometimes you and I may resort to looking and acting like we used to behave before we were saved, but just because we behave that way doesn't mean we have lost our salvation....But let's look at the Prodigal Son for just a moment.... So, here he is living in sin and his lifestyle is such that's absolutely wicked....Let me tell you something. When you are born again by the grace of Almighty God, and you become a child of God, you are born again. You become a new creation in Christ. You are adopted into the family of God. It doesn't make any difference how wicked and how vile you act....You never get away with sin. But it doesn't mean because you sin against God, God rejects you for your disobedience because in this story, God is pictured as running toward a backsliding son who came home to his father.""​

Source:
CHARLES STANLEY In Touch Ministries is WRONG

Also, check out this link here on Charles Stanley, too.
CHARLES STANLEY In Touch Ministries is WRONG
 
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frumanchu

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Here in the United States:

1. Baptists (Protestants) number about 50 million.
Source: Google.
2. Pentecostals (Who identify as Protestant) number at about 9.7 million.
Source: Google.

I have discussed Once Saved Always Saved, and Belief Alone-ism for almost 10 years now both online and in person.

Congratulations :) I've been on CF alone discussing these topics for over 16 years, plus additional years on another religion forum.

Most Calvinists I have discussed with do not believe salvation can be lost.
Meaning, if a believer falls into sin, they are still saved. So holiness is thrown out the window because it treats sin as being no real danger at all.

That last would be your own logically erroneous conclusion. I know of no Calvinist that believes sin is no real danger at all or that it is inconsequential. Consider Chapter 11 Section 5 of the Westminster Confession of Faith:

God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified:(o) and although they can never fall from the state of justification;(p) yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.(q)
(o) Matt. 6:12; I John 1:7, 9; I John 2:1, 2.
(p) Luke 22:32; John 10:28; Heb. 10:14.
(q) Ps. 89:31, 32, 33; Ps. 51:7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12; Ps. 32:5; Matt. 26:75; I Cor. 11:30, 32; Luke 1:20.​

Any doctrinally Reformed Christian would readily affirm that true saving faith is necessarily accompanied by works, those works proceeding from the regenerate heart at the urging of the indwelling Spirit. Where we differ is in the view that our state of justification before God depends upon our ongoing righteous works instead of solely on the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. We should be pursuing righteousness out of love for God and gratitude for His grace, not because we fear our weakness is too much for the Spirit to overcome.

Scripture says He is able to keep us from stumbling and to present us blameless. If your view is true, He's either unable despite this claim, or He's unwilling despite His ability. Which is it?
 
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frumanchu

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Charles Stanley is a part of the Southern Baptist Convention:

He teaches a license for immorality.

And? He's not a Calvinist and certainly not Reformed in his theology. More strawman arguments.

Moreover, I don't know how many times it has to be explained to you how many times the Reformed will come back to Romans 6 in this case. Paul explicitly and directly addresses any mistaken notion that our justification apart from our works is therefore a license to sin.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Charles Stanley is a part of the Southern Baptist Convention:

He teaches a license for immorality. He states,

""Sometimes you and I may resort to looking and acting like we used to behave before we were saved, but just because we behave that way doesn't mean we have lost our salvation....But let's look at the Prodigal Son for just a moment.... So, here he is living in sin and his lifestyle is such that's absolutely wicked....Let me tell you something. When you are born again by the grace of Almighty God, and you become a child of God, you are born again. You become a new creation in Christ. You are adopted into the family of God. It doesn't make any difference how wicked and how vile you act....You never get away with sin. But it doesn't mean because you sin against God, God rejects you for your disobedience because in this story, God is pictured as running toward a backsliding son who came home to his father.""​

Source:
CHARLES STANLEY In Touch Ministries is WRONG

Also, check out this link here on Charles Stanley, too.
CHARLES STANLEY In Touch Ministries is WRONG
Your statement is patently FALSE! Stanley teaches NO SUCH NONSENSE!!

What he teaches is the truth; that believers can and do act like unbelievers. That isn't "teaching a license for immorality". This is just a phony phrase.

No one needs such a license. Having our human nature is where our sin comes from. We don't need a license. That is laughable.

To "teach" anything means to PROMOTE it. He hardly promotes sin. But maybe you're just way too biased to even listen to any of his sermons. If you had, you would have heard him condemn sin and give the solution to sin.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Congratulations :) I've been on CF alone discussing these topics for over 16 years, plus additional years on another religion forum.



That last would be your own logically erroneous conclusion. I know of no Calvinist that believes sin is no real danger at all or that it is inconsequential. Consider Chapter 11 Section 5 of the Westminster Confession of Faith:

God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified:(o) and although they can never fall from the state of justification;(p) yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.(q)
(o) Matt. 6:12; I John 1:7, 9; I John 2:1, 2.
(p) Luke 22:32; John 10:28; Heb. 10:14.
(q) Ps. 89:31, 32, 33; Ps. 51:7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12; Ps. 32:5; Matt. 26:75; I Cor. 11:30, 32; Luke 1:20.​

Any doctrinally Reformed Christian would readily affirm that true saving faith is necessarily accompanied by works, those works proceeding from the regenerate heart at the urging of the indwelling Spirit. Where we differ is in the view that our state of justification before God depends upon our ongoing righteous works instead of solely on the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. We should be pursuing righteousness out of love for God and gratitude for His grace, not because we fear our weakness is too much for the Spirit to overcome.

Scripture says He is able to keep us from stumbling and to present us blameless. If your view is true, He's either unable despite this claim, or He's unwilling despite His ability. Which is it?


“if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

There’s a condition to that statement you quoted.
 
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BNR32FAN

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God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified:(o) and although they can never fall from the state of justification;(p) yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.(q)

What happens if the person who has been justified does not “humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance”? Are they still justified even without faith?
 
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