A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

sovereigngrace

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This thread is not for those who espouse Full Preterist views denying a literal future physical second coming of Christ and denying a literal physical future resurrection of the elect when He comes.

Intro


One of the most important hermeneutical principles is interpreting Scripture with Scripture. But this is where I feel both Preterism and Futurism falls short. They tend to subjectively dump everything either into the past or into the future, respectively. They fail to see that passage after passage in Holy Writ contain allusions to both the past and the future. This is no better demonstrated than the approach of both groups to Matthew 24. Preterism attributes everything to the coming of Titus in AD70, Futurism attributes everything to the end of this age. But both are wrong! It speaks of both events.

Many Bible students dive into Matthew 24 without recognizing the intro to Christ's comments in Matthew 23. There He talks about 2 events - AD70 and His climactic return at the end of time. Jesus speaks about the destruction of the temple in AD70, as a result of Israel's unbelief. He also talks about a future climactic day in the future when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. These were two key events that would happen in the then future. The disciples were obviously inquisitive as to when these would happen. They then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words.

I believe Jesus initially talks about the intra-Advent period in Matthew 24:4-14, Mark 13:5-13 & Luke 21:8-19. I don’t think anyone could surely dispute with any credence that Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 & Luke 21:20-24 are a record of the coming of Titus in AD70. I believe Matthew 24:23-51, Mark 13:21-37 & Luke 21:25-38 also describe the intra-Advent period and especially the glorious climactic return of Jesus Christ.

We should never forget that the focus of Scripture is Christ, His First Advent and His concluding Second Advent. It is not Titus and AD70 as some Preterists suggest by their fixation with that event. That is all many of them want to talk about. It is very sad!

There is a lot to assist us in identifying when Jesus is talking about AD70 and when He is talking about His future physical return in glory - namely other Scripture! A simple comparison between Christ’s words in Matthew 24 (and the parallel passages in Mark 13 & Luke 21) and Paul’s words in 1 & 2 Thessalonians will give us good insight into the second coming references in Matthew 24.

There is a remarkable correlation between the key words used by Christ and the words of Paul the Apostle when it comes to describing the coming of the Lord and the end of the age/world. This climatic event ushers in the end of time and the beginning of eternity. What is notable is that both use identical Greek words to describe the same concluding event in history.

This exposes both Pretrib and Preterism. Preterists are fixated with the coming of Titus in AD70 and Pretribbers are fixated with a supposed two-future comings of the Lord and imaginary 7-year period in-between them.

Contrasts

Let us compared the words of Christ with the words of Paul the Apostle.

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus (in Matthew 24:6 and Mark 13:7) when warning believers not to be troubled(throeo) by persecutions before Jesus future coming. These are the only two occurrences of this word in the Greek New Testament (in 2 Thessalonians 2:2).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus does (in Matthew 24:9, 29) for tribulation (thlipsis) in references to the persecution of the saints before Jesus comes (in 1 Thessalonians 3:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:6).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus does (in Matthew 24:8) for travail/sorrows (ōdin) in regard to the birth pangs that precede Jesus’ climactic return (in 1 Thessalonians 5:3).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus does (in Matthew 24:42) for “watch (grēgoreuō) in regard to being vigilant of Christ’s glorious return (in 1 Thessalonians 5:6).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus does (in Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, 39) for the one and only second coming (parousia) in references to the catching away of the saints (in 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus does (in Matthew 24:30) for heaven (ouranos) describing where the Lord shall appear/be revealed and descend from at His coming (in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:7).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus does (in Matthew 24:43) for “thief (kleptēs) to describe the unexpected nature of Christ’s climactic return (in 1 Thessalonians 5:2).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus does (in Matthew 24:31) for trumpet (salpigx) when describing the noise that accompanies the arrival of Christ at the end (in 1 Thessalonians 4:16).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus does (in Matthew 24:30; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27) for clouds (nephelē) in regard to the gathering of believers at the return of Christ (in 1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus does (in Matthew 24:31) for angels (aggelos) to describe the heavenly host that accompany Jesus when he returns (in 2 Thessalonians 1:7).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus does (in Luke 21:36) for escape” (ekpheugō) in regard to the Church being rescued from the wrath of God before the destruction of the wicked (in 1 Thessalonians 5:3).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus (in Matthew 24:31) for gather together/gathering (episunagógé) describing the catching away the saints of God. (in 2 Thessalonians 2:1).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus does (in Matthew 25:6) for meet (apantēsis) in regard to joining Christ at His return (in 1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Paul uses the same Greek word as Jesus does (in Luke 21:34) for sudden/unawares (aiphnidios) describing the global pouring out of the wrath of God on the wicked at His coming. These are the only two occurrences of this word in the Greek New Testament (in 1 Thessalonians 5:3).
 
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sovereigngrace

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Here are 15 rules that I have built up over the years through personal study, reading other scholars, writing, preaching and teaching that have helped me navigate the choppy waters of eschatology and other debatable issues. I hope they will be of help to some.

1st rule: Have a good overall knowledge of scriptural truth.
2nd rule: Let the Bible speak for itself. The Word of God is the ultimate and final authority.
3rd rule: Pray for the Holy Spirit’s help in understanding God's truth.
4th rule: Do not add unto the scriptural text.
5th rule: Use Bible terms instead of man-made terms.
6th rule: Scripture is its own best interpreter; we must therefore support Scripture with Scripture. Explore the full gamut of Scripture on a matter. See what other similar Scripture says.
7th rule: Let clear and explicit Scripture interpret obscure and symbolic Scripture, not the other way around.
8th rule: He who alleges must prove! If you claim something as truth – prove it.
9th rule: When studying a given subject, it is always helpful to trace it back to its origin in Scripture. This is called: the law of first mention. This gives us an insight into its roots and development.
10th rule: Note the setting, genre and context of the truth/verse you are studying and establish what the Holy Spirit is actually saying in the overall passage. Context is crucial in biblical interpretation. We need to establish whether it is literal, symbolic or parabolic, and who, what and when it relates to. Is it speaking of the past, present or future? Is it principally speaking to the people receiving it or is it speaking prophetically of an approaching event? Is the sentence a command, a statement of fact or a question? We should always be sensitive to its setting, style of writing, and the respective subject under discussion.
11th rule: The New Testament is the fuller revelation. What is concealed in the Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament. We should interpret Scripture progressively. We all know that the Old Testament prophets looked through a glass darkly. They gave what was revealed to them. The fuller revelation came with Christ. What the Old Testament seers received was often veiled and incomplete. The New Testament is the fuller revelation and sheds light on the Old Testament. New revelation builds upon older revelation, never (at any stage) contradicting it. As Vern Poythress explains: “The significance of a type is not fully discernible until the time of fulfillment … In other words, one must compare later Scripture to earlier Scripture to understand everything.”
12th rule: Check out the practical outworking of the doctrine in Scripture. See how God’s people lived it out.
13th rule: What has this to do with Jesus?
14th rule: In disputed texts, examine the usage of key words/phrase elsewhere in Scripture. This can be done by examining the meaning of these in the original language.
15th rule: While we are not led by Church tradition or bound by historic views of a given truth, we should carefully consider what the great Bible scholars over the years have gleaned from their studious in-depth findings.
 
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Davy

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One of the fallacies of viewing Matthew 24:1-3 as being only about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple is by thinking Matthew 23:38, which indeed was a warning of the coming destruction by Titus, is what all Christ's disciples were asking Him about. The other thing is how many totally miss the fact that Jesus was giving the signs of the Seals of Revelation 6 in His Olivet discourse. The 1st sign begins with His answer at Matthew 24:4.
 
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sovereigngrace

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One of the fallacies of viewing Matthew 24:1-3 as being only about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple is by thinking Matthew 23:38, which indeed was a warning of the coming destruction by Titus, is what all Christ's disciples were asking Him about. The other thing is how many totally miss the fact that Jesus was giving the signs of the Seals of Revelation 6 in His Olivet discourse. The 1st sign begins with His answer at Matthew 24:4.

I agree. We Have to bring other scripture to the table in order to aid us interpret challenging passages.
 
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claninja

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One of the most important hermeneutical principles is interpreting Scripture with Scripture.

So let's use an example of "scripture interpreting scripture"

Jesus quotes hosea as being fulfilled at the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem

Luke 23:28-30 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’

Revelation quotes hosea as being fulfilled at the time of the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:15-16 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Jesus states that "immediately" after the tribulation of 1st century Jerusalem, there would signs in the sun, moon, and stars

Matthwe 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shake

Revelation states these same signs in the sun, moon, and stars occur at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:12-13 And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind.

Now by using the scripture to interpret scripture principle, since hosea is quoted as being fulfilled at the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem, and at the 6th seal, in addition to the signs in the sun, moon, and stars occurring immediately after the tribulation and at the 6th seal, shouldn't that tell us that the 6th seal occurs around the time of the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem?


But this is where I feel both Preterism and Futurism falls short. They tend to subjectively dump everything either into the past or into the future, respectively.

I'm a little confused by this. Are you making arguments against full or partial preterists? Partial preterists don't believe all is fulfilled, hence they are called "partial". So a partial preterist wouldn't dump "everything" into the past.


Preterism attributes everything to the coming of Titus in AD70

Preterism does not attribute 'everything' of the olivet discourse to the coming of Titus. That would be a false statement or just a plain misunderstanding.



1.) For example, preterism does not attribute earthquakes, famines, civil wars, false prophets or persecution to Titus coming in 70ad.


Luke 21:8-19 Jesus answered, “See to it that you are not deceived. For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9When you hear of wars and rebellions, do not be alarmed. These things must happen first, but the end is not imminent.”Matthew 24:9-14; Mark 13:9-13) Then He told them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, famines, and pestilences in various places, along with fearful sights and great signs from heaven. But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. On account of My name they will deliver you to the synagogues and prisons, and they will bring you before kings and governors. This will be your opportunity to serve as witnesses. So make up your mind not to worry beforehand how to defend yourselves. For I will give you speech and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you will be put to death. And you will be hated by everyone because of My name. Yet not even a hair of your head will perish. By your patient endurance you will gain your souls.

2.) As a preterist, I don't view the following verse as about Titus in 70ad either. I would argue this verse is about the siege of Cestus Gallus in 66ad, which ended rather quickly resulting in many fleeing Jerusalem. It is from this time onward until the zealots began locking people in the city that Christians and Jews fled from the city. By the time Titus arrived, it would have been impossible for those in the city to actually flee the city.


Luke 21:20-21 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.

"And now it was that a horrible fear seized upon the seditious, insomuch that many of them ran out of the city, as though it were to be taken immediately; but the people upon this took courage, and where the wicked part of the city gave ground, thither did they come, in order to set open the gates, and to admit Cestius as their benefactor, who, had he but continued the siege a little longer, had certainly taken the city; but it was, I suppose, owing to the aversion God had already at the city and the sanctuary, that he was hindered from putting an end to the war that very day." Josephus Wars of the Jews 2.19.6-7

"After this calamity had befallen Cestius, many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city, as from a ship when it was going to sink" Josephus Wars of the Jews 2.20.1



3.) I would argue the next 2 verses are not all about Titus. I believe these verses are in regards to Nero dispatching Vespasian to Crush the resistance throughout the land of Israel, the civil between the 3 faction of zealots, and the siege by Titus which resulted in Jews being lead captive into the nations.


Luke 21:22-23 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

4.) I believe this language is pulled from the OT, and is symbolic for God's judgment on nations.

Luke 21:25-26 There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves. Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken

Judgment on Babylon
Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light;
the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light.

Judgment on Egypt
Ezekiel 32:7 When I blot you out, I will cover the heavens and make their stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light.


I believe this also has to do with the complete vanishing of the obsolete, covenant.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:26-27 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain.

Benson Commentary
In the gospel times; he hath promised — Or declared, saying, (Haggai 2:6,) Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven — Meaning, probably, the abolition of the civil and ecclesiastical constitution of the Jews, with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, Matthew 24:29; John 4:21; John 4:23; and even the overthrow of the heathen idolatry,


5.) I believe this language is pulled from the OT as well, when God would come down from heaven in judgment upon his enemies. Thus just as God came down from heaven to judge his enemies, Jesus, proving that He was God came in judgment upon Israel.

Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

God coming down from heaven to judge David's enemies
2 Samuel 22:10-11 He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet. He rode on a cherub and flew; he was seen on the wings of the wind.

God coming down from heaven to judge Egypt
Isaiah 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud
and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.


God coming down from heaven to judge Samaria

Micah 1:3-4 For behold, the LORD is coming out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth And the mountains will melt under him, and the valleys will split open,
like wax before the fire, like waters poured down a steep place.

 
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sovereigngrace

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So let's use an example of "scripture interpreting scripture"

Jesus quotes hosea as being fulfilled at the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem

Luke 23:28-30 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’

Revelation quotes hosea as being fulfilled at the time of the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:15-16 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Jesus states that "immediately" after the tribulation of 1st century Jerusalem, there would signs in the sun, moon, and stars

Matthwe 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shake

Revelation states these same signs in the sun, moon, and stars occur at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:12-13 And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind.

Now by using the scripture to interpret scripture principle, since hosea is quoted as being fulfilled at the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem, and at the 6th seal, in addition to the signs in the sun, moon, and stars occurring immediately after the tribulation and at the 6th seal, shouldn't that tell us that the 6th seal occurs around the time of the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem?




I'm a little confused by this. Are you making arguments against full or partial preterists? Partial preterists don't believe all is fulfilled, hence they are called "partial". So a partial preterist wouldn't dump "everything" into the past.




Preterism does not attribute 'everything' of the olivet discourse to the coming of Titus. That would be a false statement or just a plain misunderstanding.



1.) For example, preterism does not attribute earthquakes, famines, civil wars, false prophets or persecution to Titus coming in 70ad.


Luke 21:8-19 Jesus answered, “See to it that you are not deceived. For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9When you hear of wars and rebellions, do not be alarmed. These things must happen first, but the end is not imminent.”Matthew 24:9-14; Mark 13:9-13) Then He told them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, famines, and pestilences in various places, along with fearful sights and great signs from heaven. But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. On account of My name they will deliver you to the synagogues and prisons, and they will bring you before kings and governors. This will be your opportunity to serve as witnesses. So make up your mind not to worry beforehand how to defend yourselves. For I will give you speech and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you will be put to death. And you will be hated by everyone because of My name. Yet not even a hair of your head will perish. By your patient endurance you will gain your souls.

2.) As a preterist, I don't view the following verse as about Titus in 70ad either. I would argue this verse is about the siege of Cestus Gallus in 66ad, which ended rather quickly resulting in many fleeing Jerusalem. It is from this time onward until the zealots began locking people in the city that Christians and Jews fled from the city. By the time Titus arrived, it would have been impossible for those in the city to actually flee the city.


Luke 21:20-21 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.

"And now it was that a horrible fear seized upon the seditious, insomuch that many of them ran out of the city, as though it were to be taken immediately; but the people upon this took courage, and where the wicked part of the city gave ground, thither did they come, in order to set open the gates, and to admit Cestius as their benefactor, who, had he but continued the siege a little longer, had certainly taken the city; but it was, I suppose, owing to the aversion God had already at the city and the sanctuary, that he was hindered from putting an end to the war that very day." Josephus Wars of the Jews 2.19.6-7

"After this calamity had befallen Cestius, many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city, as from a ship when it was going to sink" Josephus Wars of the Jews 2.20.1



3.) I would argue the next 2 verses are not all about Titus. I believe these verses are in regards to Nero dispatching Vespasian to Crush the resistance throughout the land of Israel, the civil between the 3 faction of zealots, and the siege by Titus which resulted in Jews being lead captive into the nations.


Luke 21:22-23 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

4.) I believe this language is pulled from the OT, and is symbolic for God's judgment on nations.

Luke 21:25-26 There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves. Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken

Judgment on Babylon
Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light;
the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light.

Judgment on Egypt
Ezekiel 32:7 When I blot you out, I will cover the heavens and make their stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light.


I believe this also has to do with the complete vanishing of the obsolete, covenant.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:26-27 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain.

Benson Commentary
In the gospel times; he hath promised — Or declared, saying, (Haggai 2:6,) Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven — Meaning, probably, the abolition of the civil and ecclesiastical constitution of the Jews, with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, Matthew 24:29; John 4:21; John 4:23; and even the overthrow of the heathen idolatry,


5.) I believe this language is pulled from the OT as well, when God would come down from heaven in judgment upon his enemies. Thus just as God came down from heaven to judge his enemies, Jesus, proving that He was God came in judgment upon Israel.

Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

God coming down from heaven to judge David's enemies
2 Samuel 22:10-11 He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet. He rode on a cherub and flew; he was seen on the wings of the wind.

God coming down from heaven to judge Egypt
Isaiah 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud
and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.


God coming down from heaven to judge Samaria

Micah 1:3-4 For behold, the LORD is coming out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth And the mountains will melt under him, and the valleys will split open,
like wax before the fire, like waters poured down a steep place.

First of all, for clarity, can you give me the exact reference in Hosea that you were talking about?
 
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sovereigngrace

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So let's use an example of "scripture interpreting scripture"

Jesus quotes hosea as being fulfilled at the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem

Luke 23:28-30 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’

Revelation quotes hosea as being fulfilled at the time of the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:15-16 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Jesus states that "immediately" after the tribulation of 1st century Jerusalem, there would signs in the sun, moon, and stars

Matthwe 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shake

Revelation states these same signs in the sun, moon, and stars occur at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:12-13 And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind.

Now by using the scripture to interpret scripture principle, since hosea is quoted as being fulfilled at the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem, and at the 6th seal, in addition to the signs in the sun, moon, and stars occurring immediately after the tribulation and at the 6th seal, shouldn't that tell us that the 6th seal occurs around the time of the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem?

Interpreting Scripture with Scripture negates the Preterist paradigm. Everything with you is focused on Titus and AD70. You are fixated with that. Scripture is fixated on Christ.

Scripture expressly and repeatedly shows that the conflagration occurs at the future coming of Christ. It did not come with Titus. This is when creation is brought back to its pristine and perfect state. The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying.

In the new heavens and new earth there is going to be no more grief, grave stones or goodbyes. There is coming a day in the future when dying, crying, pain, sorrow and the curse will cease. Or put differently, there is going to be no sea, no sepulchers, no sorrow, no suffering. All the awful effects of sin have finally and eternally been expunged, namely death, disease, disaster, disappointment, depression, and despair. All things are now new.

Matthew 24:35-51: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. ] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

Mark 13:31-37: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. ] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. ] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Men can impose whatever opinions they want on Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, but the only safe and trustworthy interpreter of these passages is Scripture itself. As you piece this whole subject together, it is crucial to bring as much relevant or corresponding sacred text to the table as possible for serious analysis. The informed Bible student will (or should) immediately turn to 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5. As you look at these two passages you are immediately struck by the fact that the writers use the same type of verbiage and similar climactic detail. It is interesting that other related words are attributed to the all-consummating event in view. Few could objectively question that we are looking at a literal event and at the magnificent coming of Jesus Christ in the future in all His climatic power and glory.

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.
 
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sovereigngrace

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So let's use an example of "scripture interpreting scripture"

Jesus quotes hosea as being fulfilled at the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem

Luke 23:28-30 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’

Revelation quotes hosea as being fulfilled at the time of the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:15-16 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Jesus states that "immediately" after the tribulation of 1st century Jerusalem, there would signs in the sun, moon, and stars

Matthwe 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shake

Revelation states these same signs in the sun, moon, and stars occur at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:12-13 And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind.

Now by using the scripture to interpret scripture principle, since hosea is quoted as being fulfilled at the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem, and at the 6th seal, in addition to the signs in the sun, moon, and stars occurring immediately after the tribulation and at the 6th seal, shouldn't that tell us that the 6th seal occurs around the time of the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem?

Revelation 6:12-14 also relates this final destruction described in Isaiah 34 to the appearance of the Lord at the second coming, where the wicked finally receive their reward. We learn, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This is speaking of the Coming of Christ in His wrath at the end at time that will also see the wicked and this current earth destroyed. No one could surely imagine that this current earth could survive the stars hitting this earth at the end. The word for stars here is aster, from where we get our word asteroids from. It the picture before us: “the stars of heaven fell unto the earth.”

This is indeed a terrifying day for those left behind. In fact, it is so horrific that the wicked cry out “to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.” There is no doubt from the wording of this that the wrath of God accompanies the Lord’s return. The wicked are expressly trying to “hide … from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.” This is a terrible day for the lost. The terror is magnified by the fact it is too late for hope.

There is none that escape this judgment. The rich and poor, the free and bond are all included. It says: “the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb”

It is not just this earth that is replaced at Christ’s return but also the heavens. The heavens above will also be dissolved when He comes. V 14 tells us: “And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”This narrative fits in with every other Second Coming passage that describes the end of the world at His Advent

This dark portrayal is completed by an apt rhetorical question, and one that Premils should consider, “and who shall be able to stand?” The answer of course is simple: none! No one could survive such a cataclysmic judgment – never. The nature and enormity of the destruction is too overwhelming. The earth, elements and the heavens are changed forever being regenerated by fire never to be the same again. Those on the earth after the catching away will simply be destroyed with this current earth.

This narrative alludes to the exact same scene as that described in Isaiah 34. In near word-for-word language, this solemn passage depicts God’s final judgment on the world, and shows God’s final wrath upon both the elements and the wicked that are left behind at Christ’s appearing. Moreover, the rhetorical question at the end of the above narrative demands the evident answer – none! In fact, Isaiah 34 actually supplies the required answer to the concluding question in Revelation 6:14 “who shall be able to stand?” saying, “none shall pass through it for ever and ever.” Assuredly, the wicked will not in anyway survive the climactic Coming of Christ, this being expressly “the great day of his wrath.” In short, none of those left behind “shall be able to stand.” This is not simply a temporary condition involving partial destruction in order to facilitate the setting up of a sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennium, no; it is the final conflagration that destroys this current scene of time “for ever and ever.”

Revelation 16:15-20: “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away [Gr. pheugo], and the mountains were not found.”

The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.” We see the great geographic change that occurs when Jesus comes with the old corrupt arrangement fleeing away with the arrival of the glorified Christ at the end.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth [Gr. ] and the heaven [Gr. ouranos] fled away [Gr. pheugo]; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven [Gr. ouranos] and a new earth [Gr. ]: for the first heaven [Gr. ouranos] and the first earth [Gr. ] were passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away [Gr. aperchomai]. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

Once again, we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.
 
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claninja

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Interpreting Scripture with Scripture negates the Preterist paradigm. Everything with you is focused on Titus and AD70. You are fixated with that. Scripture is fixated on Christ.

Please avoid false statements SG. "Everything" from post does not involve Titus. Only point 3 of post #5 involves Titus. All other points are not about Titus.

The rest of your post #8 does addresses nothing I posted:

It does not address Jesus quoting hosea 10:8 as fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem and its association with Revelation 6 having hosea 10:8 fulfilled at the 6th seal.

It does not address my question of you arguing against full or partial preterism, as there seems to be conflation of the 2 on your part.

It does not address points 1,2,4,5 of post# 105 of which I don't believe Titus is a part of.


 
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claninja

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Revelation 6:12-14 also relates this final destruction described in Isaiah 34 to the appearance of the Lord at the second coming, where the wicked finally receive their reward. We learn, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This is speaking of the Coming of Christ in His wrath at the end at time that will also see the wicked and this current earth destroyed. No one could surely imagine that this current earth could survive the stars hitting this earth at the end. The word for stars here is aster (Strong’s 792), from where we get our word asteroids from. It the picture before us: “the stars of heaven fell unto the earth.”

This is indeed a terrifying day for those left behind. In fact, it is so horrific that the wicked cry out “to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.” There is no doubt from the wording of this that the wrath of God accompanies the Lord’s return. The wicked are expressly trying to “hide … from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.” This is a terrible day for the lost. The terror is magnified by the fact it is too late for hope.

There is none that escape this judgment. The rich and poor, the free and bond are all included. It says: “the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb”

It is not just this earth that is replaced at Christ’s return but also the heavens. The heavens above will also be dissolved when He comes. V 14 tells us: “And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”This narrative fits in with every other Second Coming passage that describes the end of the world at His Advent

This dark portrayal is completed by an apt rhetorical question, and one that Premils should consider, “and who shall be able to stand?” The answer of course is simple: none! No one could survive such a cataclysmic judgment – never. The nature and enormity of the destruction is too overwhelming. The earth, elements and the heavens are changed forever being regenerated by fire never to be the same again. Those on the earth after the catching away will simply be destroyed with this current earth.

This narrative alludes to the exact same scene as that described in Isaiah 34. In near word-for-word language, this solemn passage depicts God’s final judgment on the world, and shows God’s final wrath upon both the elements and the wicked that are left behind at Christ’s appearing. Moreover, the rhetorical question at the end of the above narrative demands the evident answer – none! In fact, Isaiah 34 actually supplies the required answer to the concluding question in Revelation 6:14 “who shall be able to stand?” saying, “none shall pass through it for ever and ever.” Assuredly, the wicked will not in anyway survive the climactic Coming of Christ, this being expressly “the great day of his wrath.” In short, none of those left behind “shall be able to stand.” This is not simply a temporary condition involving partial destruction in order to facilitate the setting up of a sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennium, no; it is the final conflagration that destroys this current scene of time “for ever and ever.”

Revelation 16:15-20: “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away [Gr. pheugo], and the mountains were not found.”

The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.” We see the great geographic change that occurs when Jesus comes with the old corrupt arrangement fleeing away with the arrival of the glorified Christ at the end.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth [Gr. ] and the heaven [Gr. ouranos] fled away [Gr. pheugo]; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven [Gr. ouranos] and a new earth [Gr. ]: for the first heaven [Gr. ouranos] and the first earth [Gr. ] were passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away [Gr. aperchomai]. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

Once again, we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.

Why are you deflecting about hosea 10:8 in regards to Luke 23:29-30 and revelation 6:16?

I want to know if you practice what you preach. I want to know if you actually use scripture to interpret scripture.

As Jesus quotes hosea 10:8 in Luke 23:29-20 in regards to the coming judgment upon Israel, and revelation 6:16 quotes hosea 10:8 as being fulfilled at the time of the 6th seal, then "using scripture to interpret scripture" tells us that at the least part of the 6th seal was fulfilled upon Jerusalem's judgment in 66-70ad.

Hosea 10:8 The high places of Avene will be destroyed— it is the sin of Israel; thorns and thistles will overgrow their altars. Then they will say to the mountains, “Cover us!” and to the hills, “Fall on us!”f

Revelation 6:16 And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usc from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb

Luke 23:28-30 Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ At that time ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’c
 
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sovereigngrace

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Please avoid false statements SG. "Everything" from post does not involve Titus. Only point 3 of post #5 involves Titus. All other points are not about Titus.

The rest of your post #8 does addresses nothing I posted:

It does not address Jesus quoting hosea 10:8 as fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem and its association with Revelation 6 having hosea 10:8 fulfilled at the 6th seal.

It does not address my question of you arguing against full or partial preterism, as there seems to be conflation of the 2 on your part.

It does not address points 1,2,4,5 of post# 105 of which I don't believe Titus is a part of.

Every Scripture you quote relates to AD70 (or AD66-AD70). That must be all Preterists think about. I don't see Titus or AD70 mentioned in Hosea 10:8.

Revelation 6:12-14 also relates this final destruction described in Isaiah 34. Isaiah 34:1-4 says, “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.”

Verses 8-10 continues, For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”

Isaiah describes what occurs at the Second Advent:

(1) The heavens shall pass away.
(2) The earth shall be burned up.
(3) No wicked will survive this day of destruction.

Whilst the day of the Lord is undoubtedly the day when the righteous are finally rescued, it is also, significantly, the day when the wicked are totally destroyed. The consistent teaching of Scripture shows us that the second coming of the Lord will see the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection / judgment at the second coming. It is an all-consummating event. I Thessalonians 5:4 plainly says, of those left behind at the second coming, “they shall not escape.” In fact they will be burnt up along with this sin-cursed world. The elements will be melted up and “none shall pass through it for ever and ever” (Isaiah 34:10).
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why are you deflecting about hosea 10:8 in regards to Luke 23:29-30 and revelation 6:16?

I want to know if you practice what you preach. I want to know if you actually use scripture to interpret scripture.

As Jesus quotes hosea 10:8 in Luke 23:29-20 in regards to the coming judgment upon Israel, and revelation 6:16 quotes hosea 10:8 as being fulfilled at the time of the 6th seal, then "using scripture to interpret scripture" tells us that at the least part of the 6th seal was fulfilled upon Jerusalem's judgment in 66-70ad.

Hosea 10:8 The high places of Avene will be destroyed— it is the sin of Israel; thorns and thistles will overgrow their altars. Then they will say to the mountains, “Cover us!” and to the hills, “Fall on us!”f

Revelation 6:16 And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usc from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb

Luke 23:28-30 Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ At that time ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’c

This is classic eisegesis.

Exegesis is drawing from countless Scripture what it is actually saying.
Eisegesis is reading things into it not present to give artificial credence to the doctrinal inventions of men.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why are you deflecting about hosea 10:8 in regards to Luke 23:29-30 and revelation 6:16?

I want to know if you practice what you preach. I want to know if you actually use scripture to interpret scripture.

As Jesus quotes hosea 10:8 in Luke 23:29-20 in regards to the coming judgment upon Israel, and revelation 6:16 quotes hosea 10:8 as being fulfilled at the time of the 6th seal, then "using scripture to interpret scripture" tells us that at the least part of the 6th seal was fulfilled upon Jerusalem's judgment in 66-70ad.

Hosea 10:8 The high places of Avene will be destroyed— it is the sin of Israel; thorns and thistles will overgrow their altars. Then they will say to the mountains, “Cover us!” and to the hills, “Fall on us!”f

Revelation 6:16 And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usc from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb

Luke 23:28-30 Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ At that time ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’c

Does sin continue today?
Does dying continue today?
Does crying continue today?
Does pain continue today?
Does sorrow continue today?
Does the curse continue today?

Are we still not living in an "evil age" today?
Do people still marry today?
When does incorruption arrive?
Is "the bondage of corruption" removed from the creature and creation at the moment?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Please avoid false statements SG. "Everything" from post does not involve Titus. Only point 3 of post #5 involves Titus. All other points are not about Titus.

The rest of your post #8 does addresses nothing I posted:

It does not address Jesus quoting hosea 10:8 as fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem and its association with Revelation 6 having hosea 10:8 fulfilled at the 6th seal.

It does not address my question of you arguing against full or partial preterism, as there seems to be conflation of the 2 on your part.

It does not address points 1,2,4,5 of post# 105 of which I don't believe Titus is a part of.


Apart from reluctantly responding to my questions on the same, where have you been presenting posts that concentrate on the future literal return of Christ which outline the a physical future resurrection of the just?
 
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iamlamad

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Does sin continue today?
Does dying continue today?
Does crying continue today?
Does pain continue today?
Does sorrow continue today?
Does the curse continue today?
Are we still not living in an "evil age" today?
Do people still marry today?
When does incorruption arrive?
Is "the bondage of corruption" removed from the creature and creation at the moment?
Of course YES All these things continue today. Satan is not bound yet, and he is still the god of this planet. We are still living on a fallen planet, under the spiritual leadership of Satan - the god of this world. But for those who are born again, we are not of this world. We have the authority to keep Satan out of our affairs.
This is classic eisegesis.

Exegesis is drawing from countless Scripture what it is actually saying.
Eisegesis is reading things into it not present to give artificial credence to the doctrinal inventions of men.
Hmmm. WE get a lot of Eisegesis on these threads!
Every Scripture you quote relates to AD70 (or AD66-AD70). That must be all Preterists think about. I don't see Titus or AD70 mentioned in Hosea 10:8.

Revelation 6:12-14 also relates this final destruction described in Isaiah 34. Isaiah 34:1-4 says, “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.”

Verses 8-10 continues, For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”

Isaiah describes what occurs at the Second Advent:

(1) The heavens shall pass away.
(2) The earth shall be burned up.
(3) No wicked will survive this day of destruction.

Whilst the day of the Lord is undoubtedly the day when the righteous are finally rescued, it is also, significantly, the day when the wicked are totally destroyed. The consistent teaching of Scripture shows us that the second coming of the Lord will see the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection / judgment at the second coming. It is an all-consummating event. I Thessalonians 5:4 plainly says, of those left behind at the second coming, “they shall not escape.” In fact they will be burnt up along with this sin-cursed world. The elements will be melted up and “none shall pass through it for ever and ever” (Isaiah 34:10).
If we compare scripture with scripture, Jesus comes to the clouds to catch up His bride just before this "day of the Lord" or the day of His wrath begins. Believers in Jesus Christ will not see the beginning of the Day of the Lord, or the 70th week of Daniel. We will wait out this time in heaven.
 
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claninja

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Every Scripture you quote relates to AD70 (or AD66-AD70). That must be all Preterists think about. I don't see Titus or AD70 mentioned in Hosea 10:8.

Revelation 6:12-14 also relates this final destruction described in Isaiah 34. Isaiah 34:1-4 says, “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.”

Verses 8-10 continues, For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”

Isaiah describes what occurs at the Second Advent:

(1) The heavens shall pass away.
(2) The earth shall be burned up.
(3) No wicked will survive this day of destruction.

Whilst the day of the Lord is undoubtedly the day when the righteous are finally rescued, it is also, significantly, the day when the wicked are totally destroyed. The consistent teaching of Scripture shows us that the second coming of the Lord will see the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection / judgment at the second coming. It is an all-consummating event. I Thessalonians 5:4 plainly says, of those left behind at the second coming, “they shall not escape.” In fact they will be burnt up along with this sin-cursed world. The elements will be melted up and “none shall pass through it for ever and ever” (Isaiah 34:10).

You left out Jesus' use of Hosea 10:8 in Luke. What do you believe Jesus was talking about in regards to His use of hosea 10:8?

Luke 23:28-30 But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ At that time
‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’


Do you believe Jesus' statement of "Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed" in regards to the fulfillment of Hosea 10:8 is completely unrelated to the following passage ?

Luke 23:21 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people

Luke 23:43-44 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.e
 
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claninja

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This is classic eisegesis.

Exegesis is drawing from countless Scripture what it is actually saying.
Eisegesis is reading things into it not present to give artificial credence to the doctrinal inventions of men.

I could use this same generic argument against you just because we disagree, but there are much better ways to have a fruitful discussion.

So let's test my "eisegesis".

I believe Jesus is quoting hosea 10:8 in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem, as he states "
Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed" and tells the Daughters of Jerusalem STANDING IN FRONT OF HIM to weep for themselves, not for him

Luke 23:28-30 But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ At that time ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’

Using other scripture to help with this interpretation, we can see Jesus consistently talks about mothers, and wombs, and children being crushed by the destruction that was to happen in 66-70ad.

Luke 23:21 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people

Luke 23:43-44 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.e

Thus, by the evidence in the gospels, it seems to point that Jesus is quoting hosea 10:8 in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad.

However, in order to show that I am in fact using "eisegesis" it would be more helpful for to explain specifically why I am wrong about this conclusion and what verses you can provide to show support for your position other than just simply, and generically stating "eisegesis".

 
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sovereigngrace

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Of course YES All these things continue today. Satan is not bound yet, and he is still the god of this planet. We are still living on a fallen planet, under the spiritual leadership of Satan - the god of this world. But for those who are born again, we are not of this world. We have the authority to keep Satan out of our affairs.

Hmmm. WE get a lot of Eisegesis on these threads!

If we compare scripture with scripture, Jesus comes to the clouds to catch up His bride just before this "day of the Lord" or the day of His wrath begins. Believers in Jesus Christ will not see the beginning of the Day of the Lord, or the 70th week of Daniel. We will wait out this time in heaven.

Are you Pretrib?
 
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sovereigngrace

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You left out Jesus' use of Hosea 10:8 in Luke. What do you believe Jesus was talking about in regards to His use of hosea 10:8?

Luke 23:28-30 But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ At that time
‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’


Do you believe Jesus' statement of "Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed" in regards to the fulfillment of Hosea 10:8 is completely unrelated to the following passage ?

Luke 23:21 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people

Luke 23:43-44 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.e

Of course I believe that Luke 23:28-30 relates to AD70. But there is a big difference between acknowledging a few isolated passages that relate to AD70 and what you and other Preterists do (who are fixated with the coming of Titus): relating everything in New Testament to AD70. Why are you so uncomfortable about talking about the second coming and the deliverance of mankind and creation from the bondage of corruption? Why?
 
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