Who gave the Law? Moses or Yahweh?

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Christ is Yahweh, the I am who spoke to Moses.

Who is Yahshua talking about here?:

(CLV) Mt 22:36
"Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"

(CLV) Mt 22:37
Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole comprehension.

(CLV) Mt 22:38
This is the great and foremost precept.
 
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Peter J Barban

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Who is Yahshua talking about here?:

(CLV) Mt 22:36
"Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"

(CLV) Mt 22:37
Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole comprehension.

(CLV) Mt 22:38
This is the great and foremost precept.
He is referring to himself, the Lord, their God.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Which is OK, because the Old Testament was not given for us.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


Depending on which scholar's work you examine, the number of quotations and references in the New Testament to the Old may be as high as 4,105 (Roger Nicole, The Expositor's Bible ...
 
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Dkh587

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I don't want to write a long post only to have people dismiss it. Let's just start with Matthew 5
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.

Christ is setting up his law as superior to Moses' Law. Not that Christ is superior to God, for, in fact, Christ is Yahweh, the I Am who spoke to Moses. But Christ's new law is superior to the old.
He’s teaching the correct understanding of the law of Moses, which is the law of God.

he was not only correctly teaching the law of God/Moses, he was building on it and teaching it fully. People tend to only call it the “law of Moses” in an effort to downplay obedience to it, but Moses was only the vessel which it came from.

Nehemiah 8:1-18
And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which Yahweh had commanded to Israel.

And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.

And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.

And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.

And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up: And Ezra blessed Yahweh, the great God.

And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped Yahweh with their faces to the ground.

Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

And Nehemiah, which is the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that taught the people, said unto all the people, This day is holy unto Yahweh your God; mourn not, nor weep.

For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law.

Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of Yahweh is your strength.

So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day is holy; neither be ye grieved.

And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.

And on the second day were gathered together the chief of the fathers of all the people, the priests, and the Levites, unto Ezra the scribe, even to understand the words of the law.

And they found written in the law which Yahweh had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month: And that they should publish and proclaim in all their cities, and in Jerusalem, saying, Go forth unto the mount, and fetch olive branches, and pine branches, and myrtle branches, and palm branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths, as it is written.

So the people went forth, and brought them, and made themselves booths, every one upon the roof of his house, and in their courts, and in the courts of the house of God, and in the street of the water gate, and in the street of the gate of Ephraim.

And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness. Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.

the law of Moses = the law of God

the book of the law = Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy


1 Chronicles 16:39-40
And Zadok the priest, and his brethren the priests, before the tabernacle of Yahweh in the high place that was at Gibeon, To offer burnt offerings unto Yahweh upon the altar of the burnt offering continually morning and evening, and to do according to all that is written in the law of Yahweh, which he commanded Israel

2 Chronicles 17:9
And they taught in Judah, and had the book of the law of Yahweh with them, and went about throughout all thecities of Judah, and taught the people.

2 Chronicles 34:14
And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of Yahweh, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of Yahweh given by Moses

Nehemiah 9:3
And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the law of Yahweh their God one fourth part of the day; and another fourth part they confessed, and worshipped Yahweh their God.

Malachi 4:4
Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
 
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Peter J Barban

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He’s teaching the correct understanding of the law of Moses, which is the law of God.

he was not only correctly teaching the law of God/Moses, he was building on it and teaching it fully. People tend to only call it the “law of Moses” in an effort to downplay obedience to it, but Moses was only the vessel which it came from.

Nehemiah 8:1-18


the law of Moses = the law of God

the book of the law = Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy


1 Chronicles 16:39-40


2 Chronicles 17:9


2 Chronicles 34:14


Nehemiah 9:3


Malachi 4:4
I agree with you to a degree.

However, Isreal did not need a better understanding of the law. The apostles did not complain that Israel failed because they did not understand the law. Israel understood the Law well enough before Jesus explained it. They failed because they had no spiritual power to obey.

Also, the OT law was only temporary. I don't think that the gospel writers would detail Jesus' OT theology when it was already passing away.

Instead, I think that Jesus was establishing a new law for the New Covenant - something that Paul calls the Law of Christ:
1 Corinthians 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Here Paul says that he is not under the law of Moses but he is under Christ's law.
 
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Hawkins

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I'm very interested in hearing opinions on this.

I think that this is very misunderstood topic.

God's Law is originally designed for the angels to have a choice, such that 2/3 of them will in the end pass the final judgment of Law to enter the final Heaven to live with God. 1/3 of them will fail and will be with Satan.

When the same Law applies to humans, somehow due historical reasons (related to Eden and Adam, and Satan the snake) no humans can be saved through the same Final Judgment. God thus has to destroy everything related to humans, including earth together with everything in it. That's Noah's flood.

However God has a plan B. Through the justification made by the blood of Jesus, God can grant a serious of covenants for the salvation of humans. In the Final Judgment humans, if judged by Jesus to be qualified under a covenant, do not need to face the same judgment of Law as the angels will do. Humans can thus be saved through covenants by the judgment of Jesus Christ. At this level, not a single stroke of Law can be changed as it is the Law used in the Final Judgment for at least the angels, and those humans rejected by Jesus Christ.

A covenant on the other hand, has the following main components,
Commandments
Law (minimized to none in the New Covenant)
Grace (maximized in the New Covenant)
Promise

Commandments are direct commands from God and Jesus Christ. Some of them thus can be common to each and every covenant. For example, you shall not kill/murder could be a commandment in each and every covenant. However, commandments may not enforced the same way in the different covenants. For example, commandments in the Mosaic covenant are enforced as laws. It means if you break it you are pretty much dead. However in the New Covenant then you may not die, in the end it's up to Jesus to decide whether your sin is forgivable.

Law at the covenant level is not the same as the Law used for the angels. No humans can abide by the Law applicable to the angels. A covenant together with its Law is only applicable to humans but not angels. Jesus is for humans but not angels. The Mosaic Law is a set of Law worked out by Moses for the practicality part and endorsed by God. The Mosaic Law is applicable to theoretically only the Jews as Mosaic covenant is a covenant granted to the Jews but not the gentiles. That's why the Jews in Jesus days are proud of having the Law (Mosaic). It is a set of Law the Jews are supposed to abide by strictly. That's how the Jews will be judged (by Jesus) with Moses as the accuser.

John 5:45 (NIV2011)
But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.

Mosaic Law at the covenant level can also be referred to as God's Law as it is endorsed by God. However it is not the same Law for the angels. It's not the Law for the gentiles. Law for the gentiles is possibly introduced through the covenant of Noah, which is another set of Law for humans to abide by in the form of our conscience and moral code. Law at this level is not changeable because it will be used in the Final Judgment for those humans under the respective covenants.

To put it another way, no covenant nor Law can be changed. What changes is that humans can hop from one covenant to another. And covenants have the accumulative effect. When the Jews are nominated to be under the Mosaic covenant, they still need to follow their conscience and moral code to act as specified in the Noah's covenant.

Similarly, after hoping over to the New Covenant,
if you are gentile, you still need to follow your conscience and moral code to act. You need to follow the commandments conveyed through Jesus Christ.

If you still reckon yourself to be a Jew (provided that you are a Jew by bloodline and circumcised as required by the Mosaic covenant as a male), you need to follow your conscience and moral code to act (Noah's covenant). You need to abide by the Mosaic Law the best you can (you can't do this at full as the Temple as already been removed). You need to follow the commandments from Jesus Christ.

In a nutshell, no Law nor covenant is ever changed (not a single stroke of them). Humans however can be grouped under a covenant to subject to the Final Judgment differently.

Paul's struggle:
He needs to deal with two main issues. First He's ministering churches in Asia Minor, which are usually a mixture of gentile and Jewish Christians. He needs to emphasize that Old Law won't save on the one hand, and has to respect some Jewish customs on the other in order to keep the Jewish Christians. If he forbids Jewish customs as a whole the Jews may be too offended to consider to join Christianity at all. Second, Law as a firm concept of the Jews refers only to the Mosaic Law. Thus he can't explicitly use the term to explain as I explain here, or else it becomes a heresy to the Jews. He thus has to hint it in a more implicit manner which makes the book of Romans a bit difficult to read.

2 cents.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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i never say anything in Scripture supporting this view at all >
I think that this is very misunderstood topic.

God's Law is originally designed for the angels to have a choice

p.s. nor 'saw'. Neither say nor saw.... fwiw....
 
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Hawkins

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i never say anything in Scripture supporting this view at all >

p.s. nor 'saw'. Neither say nor saw.... fwiw....

Re-read the Bible then, till you can reconcile what I said or point out a contradiction. My view is a view by harmonizing the whole Bible.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Re-read the Bible then, till you can reconcile what I said or point out a contradiction. My view is a view by harmonizing the whole Bible.
No need. You have not presented anything from Scripture indicating your view is right nor correct.
 
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Hawkins

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No need. You have not presented anything from Scripture indicating your view is right nor correct.

You don't know better. I said that the view is a harmonization of the Bible. If not you can point out the contradiction.

Personally, assertion without any argument is never my cup of tea, you can save it for yourself though.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You don't know better. I said that the view is a harmonization of the Bible. If not you can point out the contradiction.

Personally, assertion without any argument is never a cup of my tea.
You claimed something contrary to all Scripture.

If someone claimed they say green and blue polka-dot palm trees someplace, no one could prove them wrong, could they ?

Likewise, while you might not be proven wrong today, you also have not shown from any Scripture that what you posted is in line with any Scripture.
 
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Hawkins

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You claimed something contrary to all Scripture.

If someone claimed they say green and blue polka-dot palm trees someplace, no one could prove them wrong, could they ?

Likewise, while you might not be proven wrong today, you also have not shown from any Scripture that what you posted is in line with any Scripture.

Again, that's your assertion without any argument presented. You can say the same to all posts. This actually makes your reply completely meaningless (it shows your pride though).
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Again, that's your assertion without any argument presented. You can say the same to all posts. This actually makes your reply completely meaningless (it shows your pride though).
You posted originally in this context something with no basis in Scripture. Thus there is no need to refute it, only to note it. Did you just make it up ? Or where did it come from ?
If you could post Scripture without such contradiction, it could not be refuted. But you did not post any Scripture, nor anything in harmony with Scripture, concerning this.
 
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eleos1954

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Where did YHWH break out his his law into a "ceremonial category." I've found no such scripture. Where does scripture say that this, yet undefined, "ceremonial law" was nailed to the cross?

YHWH's law is YHWH's law, Period. You can't pick and choose which ones you want to obey....well....at least without consequences. Yahshua said that nothing will pass from the law until heaven and earth pass. He didn't qualify that with, "except undefined "ceremonial" law."

Jesus is our high priest in heaven ... no longer a need for the earthly sanctuary and it's associated ceremonies etc.

"ceremonial/sacrificial" laws/practices whatever you want to call them ... those that were associated with the earthly sanctuary system are no longer needed.

Colossians Chapter 2 - "nailed to the cross"

14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!
 
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eleos1954

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Exodus 31
CLV(i) 1 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying. 2 See! I call by name Bezalel son of Uri son of Hur of the stock of Judah. 3 I shall fill him with the spirit of Elohim, with wisdom and with understanding and with knowledge, in all work, 4 to design designs, to make them in gold, in silver and in copper, 5 and as a lapidary for filling and as an artificer in wood for making all kind of work. 6 And I, behold, I give him Aholiab son of Ahisamach of the stock of Dan. In the heart of all the wise of heart I have given wisdom, that they will make all that I have instructed you. 7 the tent of appointment and the coffer for the testimony with the propitiatory shelter which shall be on it and all the furnishings of the tent, 8 the table with its furnishings, the pure lampstand with all its furnishings and the altar of incense, 9 the altar of ascent offering with all its furnishings, the laver and its post;" 10 also the colored garments and the holy garments for Aaron, the priest, and the garments of his sons to serve as priests;" 11 then the anointing oil and the incense of spices for the holy place; according to all that I have instructed you shall they do. 12 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying. 13 Now you, speak to the sons of Israel saying, Surely, My sabbaths shall you keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations to know that I, Yahweh, am hallowing you. 14 Hence you will keep the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Profaners of it shall be put to death, yea death, for if anyone is doing work in it, that soul will be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done, and on the seventh day is a sabbath of cessation, holy to Yahweh. Everyone doing work on the sabbath day shall be put to death, yea death. 16 Hence the sons of Israel will keep the sabbath so as to make the sabbath an eonian covenant throughout their generations. 17 Between Me and the sons of Israel it shall be a sign for the eon, for in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He ceased and was refreshed. 18 He gave to Moses, as He finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of Elohim.

Yes, Jesus is Yahweh

John 1:18

18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.
 
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HARK!

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Jesus is our high priest in heaven ... no longer a need for the earthly sanctuary and it's associated ceremonies etc.

Let's take a close look at this.

(CLV) Ps 19:7
The law of Yahweh is flawless, restoring the soul; The testimony of Yahweh is faithful, making wise the simple;

That which is flawless does not need to be replaced. All of the law mentioned in the New Testament; can be found in the Torah. Yahshua was obedient to the Torah, and called us to follow him.

(CLV) Dt 4:2
You shall neither add to the word that I am enjoining on you, nor shall you subtract from it, but observe the instructions of Yahweh your Elohim that I am enjoining on you.

If you add or subtract from something that is perfect; it is no longer perfect. Yahshua walks in perfect obedience to YHWH's Law (Torah). This is not Messiah's new covenant. It is YHWH's covenant.

(CLV) Jer 31:33
For this is the covenant which I shall contract with the house of Israel after those days, averring is Yahweh: I will put My law within them, And I shall write it on their heart; I will become their Elohim, And they shall become My people.

Let's take a closer look at this covenant.


Hebrews 8
CLV(i) 1 Now this is the sum of what is being said: Such a Chief Priest have we, Who is seated at the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle. which the Lord pitches, and not a man." 3 For every chief priest is constituted to offer both approach presents and sacrifices. Whence it is necessary for This One also to have something which He may offer. 4 Indeed, then, if He were on earth He would not even be a priest, there being those who offer approach presents according to the law"

Bear in mind that Yahshua had already ascended. The law was still in effect.

5 who, by an example and shadow, are offering the divine service of the celestials, according as Moses has been apprized when about to be completing the tabernacle. For see, He is averring, that you shall be making all "in accord with the model shown to you in the mountain." 6 Yet now He has happened upon a more excellent ministry, in as much as He is the Mediator, also, of a better covenant,

Why is it better? Did it do away with YHWH's Law? No, couldn't be. We just saw in verse 4 that the law is still in effect.

which has been instituted on better promises."

Better promises.....what does that mean?

7 For if that first one were unblamable, no place would have been sought for a second. "

Where is YHWH laying blame? On his own perfect law? That doesn't seem right.

8 For, blaming them, He is saying, "Lo! the days are coming,the Lord is saying, "And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant, 9 Not in accord with the covenant which I make with their fathers In the day of My taking hold of their hand To be leading them out of the land of Egypt, Seeing that they do not remain in My covenant, And I neglect them,the Lord is saying, 10 For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days,the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws (Torah) to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people."


So he'll be writing his Torah on our hearts. What does this mean; and why is it a better covenant?

(CLV) Ezk 11:19
Then I will give them another heart, And a new spirit shall I bestow within them; I will take away the heart of stone from their flesh, And I will give them a heart of flesh,

I see he's given us a new heart, not a heart of stone, that follows laws written in stone.

(CLV) Ezk 11:20
That they may walk in My statutes, And they may observe My ordinances and obey them; So they will become My people, And I Myself shall become their Elohim, says Yahweh.

(CLV) Ezk 36:26
I will give you a new heart, And a new spirit will I bestow within you, And I will take away the heart of stone from your flesh, And I will give you a heart of flesh.

So under the old covenant YHWH's People didn't have a heart to keep the Torah; but when he gives us a new heart, and a new spirit; we want to be obedient to his Torah.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:1
Everyone who is believing that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God. And everyone who is loving Him Who begets is loving him also who is begotten by Him.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:2
In this we know that we are loving the children of God, whenever we may be loving God and may be doing His precepts.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

It's easy to be obedient with a heart of love toward a loving father

(CLV) Mt 5:17
"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.


(CLV) Hb 7:12
For, the priesthood being transferred, of necessity there is coming to be a transference of law also,

Strong's G3346
to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other)
to transfer
G3346 - metatithēmi - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

The law was transferred. Ir wasn't done away with. YHWH's Moedim are for ever. So it is written.

"ceremonial/sacrificial" laws/practices whatever you want to call them ... those that were associated with the earthly sanctuary system are no longer needed.

There is nothing in scripture about ceremonial law. That's an uninspired fabrication.

So you no longer need atonement through our High Priest? That's quite a cavalier attitude.

Colossians Chapter 2 - "nailed to the cross"

14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!

This says nothing about YHWH's Moedim being nailed to the torture stake.

It was the death decrees that are taken away by grace; for those who have faith that YHWH will save them through Yahshua
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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No, read any Hebrew/ Greek / Aramaic Bible with the original names present -
Yahweh is NOT Yahushua
Yahushua is NOT Yahweh.
THey are echad, eternally past and future, with no beginning, and no end.
But Jesus is not the Father throughout Scripture, nor throughout history, nor did He ever say what you say.
 
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(CLV) Ex 33:11
So Yahweh spoke to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his associate. When he returned to the camp then his minister, Joshua son of Nun, a youth, did not remove himself from the midst of the tent.

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 (CLV)

" 4 Then, concerning the feeding on the idol sacrifices: We are aware that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God except One." 5 For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, 6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him."


24 “This is what YHWH says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am YHWH, the maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself.

Exodus 3

15 Elohim, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, YHWH, the Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name FOREVER, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.-

I Timothy 2:5 KJV

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus


John 20:17King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Deut.4:35

35 You were shown these things so that you might know that YHWH is God; besides him there is no other.
 
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