Who gave the Law? Moses or Yahweh?

HARK! said:

Romans 7 is one of my favorite chapters of Romans.

I've done a study on it here: Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 7

Continued from: Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 6

Romans 7 (CLV)
1 Or are you ignorant, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know law),

Paul is after all a lawyer.
When a lawyer is speaking legalese; a layman might think that he knows what a lawyer is telling him in plain English; but if he looks up the terms in a Black's Law dictionary; he might find that the Lawyer meant something very much different. In the last chapter we found that Paul uses the word "law" to define many aspects of different types of law which conflict with each other.

When Paul speaks of "the law;" which law is he talking about, the law we are not under, the law which we are to sustain, the law which is written on our hearts, the law Messiah frees us from, or something else?

that the law is lording it over a man for as much time as he is living?

The Law of Sin and Death

2 For a woman in wedlock is bound to a living man by law. Yet if the man should be dying, she is exempt from the law of the man." 3 Consequently, then, while the man is living, she will be styled an adulteress if she should be becoming another man's, yet, if the man should be dying, she is free from the law, being no adulteress on becoming another man's."

Free from the Law of Sin and Death. She is no longer the slave of Satan. She can then remarry into a covenant of life.

The Law of Life

(CLV) Ro 8:2
for the spirit's law of life in Christ Yahshua frees you from the law of sin and death.

Yahshua follows YHWH's law, the Torah. Yahshua call us to follow him in Torah.

4 So that, my brethren, you also were put to death to the law

The Law of Sin and Death

through the body of Christ, for you to become Another's, Who is roused from among the dead,

The Law of Life

that we should be bearing fruit to God."

Obedience to the Torah is the fruit of faith.

5 For, when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were through the law, operated in our members to be bearing fruit to Death."

The Law of Sin and Death

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Trangression of the law (Torah).

6 Yet now we were exempted from the law, dying in that in which we were retained,

The law of Sin and Death

so that it is for us to be slaving in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter."

The Law of Faith

(CLV) Ro 3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law? Of works? Not! But through faith's law.

7 What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law.

Torah

For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting." 8 Now Sin, getting an incentive through the precept, produces in me all manner of coveting. For apart from law Sin is dead."

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Trangression of the law (Torah).

9 Now I lived, apart from law, once, yet at the coming of the precept Sin revives. Yet I died, 10 and it was found that, to me, the precept for life, this is for death." 11 For Sin, getting an incentive through the precept, deludes me, and through it, kills me."

Spirit warring against the flesh.

12 So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good."

Torah

13 Became good, then, death to me? May it not be coming to that!

The Law of Sin and Death is bad.

But Sin, that it may be appearing Sin, is producing death to me through good

The Law of Life

Reborn in Yahshua

, that Sin may become an inordinate sinner through the precept." 14 For we are aware that the law is spiritual, yet I am fleshly, having been disposed of under Sin." 15 For what I am effecting I know not, for not what I will, this I am putting into practice, but what I am hating, this I am doing." 16 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, I am conceding that the law is ideal."

Paul continues to speak of the spirit warring against the flesh. The ideal law is obviously not The Law of Sin and Death.

17 Yet now it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin making its home in me." 18 For I am aware that good is not making its home in me (that is, in my flesh), for to will is lying beside me, yet to be effecting the ideal is not." 19 For it is not the good that I will that I am doing, but the evil that I am not willing, this I am putting into practice." 20 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin which is making its home in me."

The war continues.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

21 Consequently, I am finding the law that, at my willing to be doing the ideal, the evil is lying beside me." 22 For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,

Torah

23 yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Here we have some new laws. The Law of My Mind and The Law of Sin.

Leave to a lawyer to come up with so many nebulous laws.

24 A wretched man am I! What will rescue me out of this body of death? Grace! 25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."

Slaving for YHWH's Law..... These don't strike me as the words of someone who is not under YHWH's Law.


The Law of YHWH (Torah) wars with The Law of Sin.


Legal Terms:

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)


Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 8

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Referring to death to the law, law being the old husband, leaves the freedom to remarry into God’s household. Torah oc law still wages war the same as flesh fights spirit. You’ve listed chap 7 as God’s law. Those under a tutor are expected to mature into a higher law.

Yahweh copied nothing.

~Cassia~ said:

That just circles around to faith plus grace = works thru grace defined by the example of Christ.

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To use an analogy, if a professional musician were to train me how to play an instrument as a free gift to me, then the training itself would be the content of the gift and participating in that training would be doing nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it would look like to receive their gift.

In the same way, in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's law was given to instruct us how to do, so being trained by grace to obey God's law through faith is itself the content of the free gift and participating in that training would be doing nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it would look like to receive it.

God gave the law through Moses. Even though it is called the law of Moses, it is also called the law of God, and the law of Yahweh

Nehemiah 8:1-18

And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which Yahweh had commanded to Israel.

And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.

And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.

And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.

And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people and when he opened it, all the people stood up: And Ezra blessed Yahweh, the great God.

And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped Yahweh with their faces to the ground.

Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

And Nehemiah, which is the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that taught the people, said unto all the people, This day is holy unto Yahweh your God; mourn not, nor weep.

For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law.

Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of Yahweh is your strength.

So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day is holy; neither be ye grieved.

And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.

And on the second day were gathered together the chief of the fathers of all the people, the priests, and the Levites, unto Ezra the scribe, even to understand the words of the law.

And they found written in the law which Yahweh had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month: And that they should publish and proclaim in all their cities, and in Jerusalem, saying, Go forth unto the mount, and fetch olive branches, and pine branches, and myrtle branches, and palm branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths, as it is written.

So the people went forth, and brought them, and made themselves booths, every one upon the roof of his house, and in their courts, and in the courts of the house of God, and in the street of the water gate, and in the street of the gate of Ephraim.

And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness. Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.

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the law of Moses = the law of God


1 Chronicles 16:39-40

And Zadok the priest, and his brethren the priests, before the tabernacle of Yahweh in the high place that was at Gibeon, To offer burnt offerings unto Yahweh upon the altar of the burnt offering continually morning and evening, and to do according to all that is written in the law of Yahweh, which he commanded Israel

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2 Chronicles 17:9

And they taught in Judah, and had the book of the law of Yahweh with them, and went about throughout all thecities of Judah, and taught the people.

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2 Chronicles 34:14

And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of Yahweh, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of Yahweh given by Moses

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Nehemiah 9:3

And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the law of Yahweh their God one fourth part of the day; and another fourth part they confessed, and worshipped Yahweh their God.

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Malachi 4:4

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

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Soyeong said:

To use an analogy, if a professional musician were to train me how to play an instrument as a free gift to me, then the training itself would be the content of the gift and participating in that training would be doing nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it would look like to receive their gift.

In the same way, in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's law was given to instruct us how to do, so being trained by grace to obey God's law through faith is itself the content of the free gift and participating in that training would be doing nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it would look like to receive it.

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That's what I would describe as inner work on inner self, yielding to the light. Outer acts don’t always convey the inner condition clearly, but practise refines the tune to get in tune with God. I guess that’s what they call the dance of participation.

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HARK! said:

Romans 7


The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)


Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 8

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It’s still about law vs grace which was the whole point of Paul’s teachings ... not a conversation I want to get into, unless you agree that Paul’s teachings point to Christ and the church and away from rule of law.

Romans is a courthouse drama and Paul acts as a member in court giving both sides equal audience,

HARK! said:

In a nutshell:
Paul teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith; and that obedience to the law is the fruit of that faith.
Paul made this clear in Romans Chapter 4.

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Enough with the homework that I have no intention of reading if you can’t hold a conversation. Obedience to the law is the fruit of grace? News to me.

HatGuy said:

Are you rooting for option (1) in the OP, or are you saying ALL of the OT Laws were given directly by God?

If so, does or does Jesus not contradict it?

And what do you do about the difficult laws surrounding putting people to death, etc.?

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I wrote this out, and it's kind of blunt. But just know this is an invitation for discussion! I'd love to hear your thoughts on this:

I think it's a reach to say Jesus is contradicting it... "The Law given to the nation Israel from Moses from God" is pretty wordy, and not really how anyone talks. It's pretty well understood to every Jew that Moses gave the nation Israel the Law, and understood that the Law was given to Moses.

Jesus didn't need to be so specific, because he was speaking to Jews, who accepted this as common knowledge.

If I say the sun is in the sky, people pretty much accept that I'm saying when we look at the sky, there's the sun, but we all know and readily accept the technicalities. (So which is it Ken??? Is the sun in the sky?? Or is it in outer space, geez)

Also, why is this important?... I'm genuinely curious. And secondly, are you saved? Because many of these things cannot be understood without the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

John 10:2 Jesus says he calls his sheep, and leads them out.... Leads them out of what?? And who are the sheep in this passage?

John 10:16 seems to imply Jesus has other sheep elsewhere, not represented in v2, and He will bring them together to make them one flock...

I've been intrigued by this, and have been trying to wrap my head around it, so feel free to help me out, but it seems to me that Jesus is implying in verse2, that he wants to lead Jews out of Judaism. And bring Gentiles into the picture, and make them one flock.

Just as the nation Israel was led into Egypt for a time and for a purpose, and then led out again, so also they were led into the Law, to be a sanctified people, set apart from the world, and as holy as humanly possible, only to be led out once Jesus has finished His work. Israel is the root that supports the Gentiles that have been grafted in. Paul discusses this in Romans 9-12.

So we can't come at this with our worldly wisdom (1 Cor 2), looking at these technicalities in an unfruitful way.

Another point, Israel told Moses, "You go talk to him, because we know if we go we will die." Moses became a sole representative, by the nation's choice.

And every time he misrepresented God, he was severely chastised. He didn't see the land of the Caananites, because he didn't follow directions one time. So misrepresentation with no correction is a small view of God... He is the Almighty and All-Powerful. He can keep a remnant to Himself, as he told Elijah the prophet. He can preserve his word for the ages. If it were so easily tampered with, or destroyed, it would mean he respects our free will over His Own Name and Reputation... which there are some verses that seem to hint this is something God will not do. A point some of the once-saved-always-saved use as a defense. Or he is not all powerful. Which makes no sense for an entity that created the entire universe.

I saved this one for last, because it's just a legend. But a Hebrew legend says when Moses was given the Law on Mount Sinai, the mountain was covered in fire, lightning, and thunder. Every word God spoke was heard by every Israelite, and it was a very great and terrifying experience. This would make sense, and coincide with, why they were so terrified to approach the Lord, and asked Moses to do it for them. But legends aren't scripture. Though they teach this in Hebrew school, so I'm told (I'm just a gentile), I take things like this with a grain of salt. It feels correct in my spirit, but experience/feelings aren't as solid as the Word.

HatGuy said:

Hello everyone,

I find it fascinating that not once (that I can find) did Jesus ever refer to the Law as God's Law, but only ever as the Law of Moses.

I also find it fascinating that the NT at several places says the Law was given by angels (Acts 7:38, 7:53; Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 2:2) - this would imply it was not Yahweh directly who gave it. (The Hebrew word for "God", "Elohim", is a catch-all word for spirits, if I recall, but I can't reference that right now... if I'm right, it could explain some things, but the OT does use the name Yahweh in several instances relating to the Law outside of the ten commandments.)

1. Some say this is because only the ten commandments were God's Law and the rest (ceremonial and state laws) was the Law of Moses.

2. Some say it is because Moses misinterpreted or misrepresented God's real Law, unable to shake some of his cultural limitations (and so Jesus sets the record straight).

3. Some say it is because "Law", as in "Torah", does not refer to a moral code but to a spiritual word of sorts; a way of life empowered by the study of God's Law. In this sense there are double or hidden meanings to be found in the OT and the Law was never meant to be taken literally.

Of course, how Jesus changes or contradicts the "Law" is interesting. Some say he does not contradict it. At the very least, one can say he changes it or re-interprets it in His own way (and sometimes, even agreeing with the teachings of his Rabbi contemporaries).

And Paul's very negative view of the Law (although Messianic Christians may disagree that it was completely negative) is interesting too.

I'm very interested in hearing opinions on this.

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The ten commandments are eternal moral laws (have been and always will be in effect - they are seen in the arc in heaven in Revelation). The ceremonial/sacrificial laws are commonly referred to as the mosaic laws .... they were nailed to the cross ... no longer needed as Jesus was the final sacrifice for all for all times and entered into heaven and is our high priest.

The 10 still stand and will for eternity.

It was Jesus on Mt. Sinai who gave the laws.

HARK! said:

Fruit of faith.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

Notice that Abraham came to faith BEFORE he was obedient to YHWH's law.

Again, obedience to YHWH's law is the fruit of faith.

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You’ve quoted Genesis and James as your argument. Abraham deemed righteous by being willing to sacrifice another so God befriended him. It was a start. James says w/o works faith is dead. What did he list as receiving reward? Orphans and strangers helped. A giving of self as an offering.

It is quite apparent all over the earth that multitudes are more than willing (they are doing it) to sacrifice another person or even many persons, even whole nations , whole peoples, whole groups....

Those multitudes though, I refer to, are unfaithful, designing sin even while they sleep, unwilling to obey Yahweh.

Abraham obeyed Yahweh.

HARK! said:

I didn't post it as an argument.

I posted it as scripture.

(CLV) 2Ti 3:16
All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness,

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ok, and so it is. The problem is in rightly dividing it.