Can You Be a Christian and Deny the Trinity?

Francis Drake said:

The sins of OT believers were forgiven just as completely as ours are, in fact, according to Ps103, David's sins are removed as far as the heavens are high above the earth, and as far as the east is from the west.
ie, David and his sins are travelling infinitely away in opposite directions.

Ps103.
A Psalm of David.
1Bless the Lord, O my soul;
And all that is within me, bless His holy name!
2Bless the Lord, O my soul,
And forget not all His benefits:
3Who forgives all your iniquities,
Who heals all your diseases,
4Who redeems your life from destruction,
Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies,
5Who satisfies your mouth with good things,
So that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.

6The Lord executes righteousness
And justice for all who are oppressed.
7He made known His ways to Moses,
His acts to the children of Israel.
8The Lord is merciful and gracious,
Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
9He will not always strive with us,
Nor will He keep His anger forever.
10He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
Nor punished us according to our iniquities.

11For as the heavens are high above the earth,
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
12As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
13As a father pities his children,
So the Lord pities those who fear Him.
14For He knows our frame;
He remembers that we are dust.

15As for man, his days are like grass;
As a flower of the field, so he flourishes.
16For the wind passes over it, and it is gone,
And its place remembers it no more.
17But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting
On those who fear Him,
And His righteousness to children’s children,
18To such as keep His covenant,
And to those who remember His commandments to do them.

19The Lord has established His throne in heaven,
And His kingdom rules over all.

20Bless the Lord, you His angels,
Who excel in strength, who do His word,
Heeding the voice of His word.
21Bless the Lord, all you His hosts,
You ministers of His, who do His pleasure.
22Bless the Lord, all His works,
In all places of His dominion.

Bless the Lord, O my soul!

If only Christians had as good an understanding of God's goodness, mercy and complete forgiveness as David did.

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OT sins were only covered, only the Blood of Christ could take them away.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. (Hebrews 10:4)

Francis Drake said:

As I have said many times on the forum, I was born again as a child long before I heard the gospel.
I heard God speak to me.
I received revelation which much later I discovered was in the bible.
I had no clue about the trinity and no clue about Jesus on the cross.

I just knew that God lived in my heart because that is what God told me.

When eventually I got collared by the Godsquad in my mid 20s, I was not in the least bit interested in their religion because I already knew God in the secret place of my heart. Nevertheless, I gradually became aware that the God they were talking about, he was the same one I had known since childhood.

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Let's go back to this post! # 163

You plainly say, "I had no clue about the trinity and no clue about Jesus on the cross."

You also said, "I was born again as a child long before I heard the gospel.

Francis Drake said:

Obviously I came through Jesus, as does every believer since Adam, despite the majority not having a clue.
The God I first met alone in my bedroom as a child was Jesus, although I had no clue of his name.

But obviously you are not reading my posts, otherwise you wouldn't ask such questions. Go read post No200, but slowly and carefully this time. You'd see it answers these questions.

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So do I believe post #163 or this one?

Saint Steven said:

There are many testimonies of those at the end of their rope knowing only God is the answer. Those who know little to nothing about Christ or what he did for them. Those people are transformed in their encounter with God. And it has NOTHING to do with accepting Christ or even knowing who he is or what he has done for them. Right?

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I was in Islam when I began learning about the Christian faith/Christian God.

The person who I spoke with on the topic, having extensive experience with Islam, took me straight to understanding first the difference between the god of Islam and the God of Christianity..

He clearly explained it was two gods, and only one could be true. As we went argument through argument I found he was correct, they were different gods.. then I had to decide which one was the real God, and I decided it truly had to be the Christian God.

And while I liked the Christian God, felt drawn to Him, I couldn't actually be a Christian without understanding Christ - and I knew it.

The day I understood Christ and salvation I was saved. And the day I was saved, I understood the Trinity, though I had difficulty explaining it.

You can't be saved without understanding God and Christ. The Holy Spirit and His understanding comes when your saved.. so you might not fully "get it" prior to being saved, but the knowledge base is definitely there or you simply aren't saved.

You have to fully understand what your submitting to, before you can actually submit. And submission to Christ's Lordship is part of being saved, and doesn't exist outside of it.

You can like the Christian God all day long, but salvation doesn't exist outside of Christ, and for that you must have a very real knowledge of who He is.

Hazelelponi said:

I was in Islam when I began learning about the Christian faith/Christian God.

The person who I spoke with on the topic, having extensive experience with Islam, took me straight to understanding first the difference between the god of Islam and the God of Christianity..

He clearly explained it was two gods, and only one could be true. As we went argument through argument I found he was correct, they were different gods.. then I had to decide which one was the real God, and I decided it truly had to be the Christian God.

And while I liked the Christian God, felt drawn to Him, I couldn't actually be a Christian without understanding Christ - and I knew it.

The day I understood Christ and salvation I was saved. And the day I was saved, I understood the Trinity, though I had difficulty explaining it.

You can't be saved without understanding God and Christ. The Holy Spirit and His understanding comes when your saved.. so you might not fully "get it" prior to being saved, but the knowledge base is definitely there or you simply aren't saved.

You have to fully understand what your submitting to, before you can actually submit. And submission to Christ's Lordship is part of being saved, and doesn't exist outside of it.

You can like the Christian God all day long, but salvation doesn't exist outside of Christ, and for that you must have a very real knowledge of who He is.

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I appreciate your testimony, and don't question it. But can you superimpose your personal experience onto everyone who has ever come to God?

Poster Francis Drake shared a testimony that confirms my statement. I'll find the post number, in case you haven't read it.

Found it. Post #163. (page 9)

Saint Steven said:

I appreciate your testimony, and don't question it. But can you superimpose your personal experience onto everyone who has ever come to God?

Poster Francis Drake shared a testimony that confirms my statement. I'll find the post number, in case you haven't read it.

Found it. Post #163. (page 9)

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You both seem to be confusing God drawing you, with being saved. God can draw us over a period of time, but being saved - present tense, and being saved, the ongoing work of the Spirit in sanctification - requires knowledge of, and submission to Christ.

John 6:44 speaks of God drawing us toward Christ... But salvation Romans 10:9-10 requires belief and acceptance.

Because we are all predestined, when God begins a good work He will finish it Philippians 1:6, but you can't confuse the beginning of being drawn (before knowledge) with the point of actually being saved (after knowledge).

Hazelelponi said:

You both seem to be confusing God drawing you, with being saved. God can draw us over a period of time, but being saved - present tense, and being saved, the ongoing work of the Spirit in sanctification - requires knowledge of, and submission to Christ.

John 6:44 speaks of God drawing us toward Christ... But salvation Romans 10:9-10 requires belief and acceptance.

Because we are all predestined, when God begins a good work He will finish it Philippians 1:6, but you can't confuse the beginning of being drawn (before knowledge) with the point of actually being saved (after knowledge).

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I believe both of your testimonies. And I'm fine with the contradictions. Thanks.
Francis Drake had a transformative experience with God prior to any knowledge about Christ. Your experience differed from his. We all have our own interpretive bias.

Saint Steven said:

I believe both of your testimonies. And I'm fine with the contradictions. Thanks.
Francis Drake had a transformative experience with God prior to any knowledge about Christ. Your experience differed from his. We all have our own interpretive bias.

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And I would say that if what is drawing you isn't bringing you into an understanding of Christ, it's not a thing of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Because what are you here teaching? That what God you worship doesn't matter? That knowledge of God matters not?

That God's everything - and that's the Scriptures that Jesus taught.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

Acts of the Apostles 4:12 "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

It isn't often, one thinks deeply of things like the trinity, so the I have to wonder:

If no one comes to the father but by me, no one comes to God but by God?
And then why does Christ teach the disciples to pray to the Father directly?

Which is why that verse was said while he was living. The prayer asking for forgiveness before he died.

But in following the people of the OT, who gave sacrifices to their God, Jews and pagans alike, I wonder if Christ's death was a demonstration of love, not to condemn us for killing the God we worshipped to teach us the Real Tough Love: Loving the unlovable, Giving willingly without asking anything in return, to love our neighbor, to forgive those who have harmed us...
and be willing to go to the point of allowing us to kill him, to show the depth of his love.

So, The Way, The Truth, The Life is the divine love of Christ, and one doesn't come to the father but by love, to be in that state of love, as in

1 John 4:7-8: Brothers, let us love one another, for love is of God, and every who loves is born of God and knows God; he that does not love does not know God for God is love

And when we love our neighbor, we literally love God.
"1 John 4:20: Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, ..

Mathew 25:40
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, ..

So, is it possible that we are all one with God, as Christ was one with the father?
And so we treat one another as if they were Christ, humble before them, washing their feet with our tears, gladly offering him food because he is hungry, letting him over because he needs to get off at the next exit, whatever?

This is where thoughts of the Trinity go, seeing a God that doesn't say, "adore me" walking among us as a king looking down on peasants, but actually human, experiencing our struggles, our doubts, our temptations, our emotions, to show us how to become what we were already created to be, an expression of God, in a multitude of variations, a divine being.

Charlie24 said:

So do I believe post #163 or this one?

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Both are entirely true and not contradictory, so believe both
But you really don't get it do you. The glaring truth just sails straight over your head. Or maybe you deliberately duck because you don't like to connect with the truth. lol

Surely you must be aware that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament?
Since Adam, everyone who bowed down to God's sovereignty, bowed down to Jesus.

You must have read this verse before, did it make you curious as to what it meant?
1Cor10v1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
As can be seen, Jesus was the God of the Israelites the one who led them out of Egypt.

Josh5v13And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”
14So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”
It follows that the commander of the Host of the Lord was Jesus.

So even though, as a child alone in my bedroom, I had surrendered my life to God. I had no idea that Jesus was his name.

When God told me as a child that all men were bad, but that He had made a way for them, I had no idea he was talking about his death on the cross.

When God told me he didn't live in church buildings, but lived in my heart, I had no knowledge of Immanuel, God with us.

Charlie24 said:

OT sins were only covered, only the Blood of Christ could take them away.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. (Hebrews 10:4)

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I already answered that in post218.
The writer of Hebrews was not dismissing the power of the OT sacrifices, any more than he would dismiss taking communion.

Here's what Paul says about taking communion.
1Cor11v26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.
Our sins are not taken away by the bread and the wine, they merely point to the death of Jesus. Communion is a proclamation.
Likewise, sins are not taken away by OT animal sacrifices, they merely point to the death of Jesus. OT Blood sacrifices were also a proclamation.

In many ways the OT believers understood forgiveness better than NT believers. You can see that vividly in reading the Psalms

Hazelelponi said:

You both seem to be confusing God drawing you, with being saved. God can draw us over a period of time, but being saved - present tense, and being saved, the ongoing work of the Spirit in sanctification - requires knowledge of, and submission to Christ.

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I'm not in the least bit confused @Hazelelponi .
I believe you and I are both right, but semantically challenged!

It helps if you separate the words "Born again" and "saved". They are two entirely different meanings, but are frequently and erroneously used for the same thing.

Being born again (born from above) is an immediate one off event, a result of being impregnated by the seed (sperma) of the Spirit. New birth requires no theology or knowledge, just a willing and open heart.

Getting saved is a lifetime experience, culminating with our human spirit going to be with the Lord when our body dies. Phil1v6

When I was born again as a child, in complete ignorance of theology, my eternal state was guaranteed. My earthly state was the usual childhood mess, but my life was marked from that time forth. Until I received and believed the gospel, and started walking in it, my life would be little different to any non believer.
ie. I experienced no "salvation", despite getting "saved", (born again).
Thank you for bringing Romans10v9-10 up. This is the ubiquitous "Sinner's prayer", abused by virtually all evangelists and preachers.
They abuse it by applying it to non believers as the entry prayer to get them "saved", oblivious to the fact that Paul was addressing the "Saints in Rome".
ie. Romans10 was never addressed to unbelievers like most preachers do.

Romans10v8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart.” That is, the word of faith which we proclaim,
OK. Paul tells us that the word is in 2 different places, mouth and heart.

9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him out from the dead, you will be saved.
Again, 2 different functions, 2 different results.

10For in the heart is belief unto righteousness,
and in the mouth is confession unto salvation.
Did you spot the difference between the two?
The word in your heart brings righteousness in your heart because you are now born again by God's Spirit. That was my experience when I first met God as a child. Everything was in that secret place, I told nobody, just a confidence between me and God.

From the righteousness of knowing and understanding merely in the heart, to proclaiming it outwardly before God and the powers of darkness, that is what turns being born again to getting your life into salvation.

The gospel message is not what gets people born again, its what gets the lives of born again sons and daughters of God into the ways of salvation.

Because we are all predestined, when God begins a good work He will finish it Philippians 1:6,

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Again, Paul is addressing the saints. God has begun a good work which will be finished in the day of Jesus Christ, even if we die, go astray, or get martyred part way.

but you can't confuse the beginning of being drawn (before knowledge) with the point of actually being saved (after knowledge).

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There's no confusion, maybe some semantic differences.
Read through and see if we agree, because I think we do.

redleghunter said:

That is possible. But have those who acted according to the world truly come to the knowledge of truth?

2 Timothy 3:7

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This is a question I ask the Lord about myself specifically regarding this scripture . For this verse is describing believers in the last days . Not atheist , thus the part which says " having a form of godliness but denying the power ...from such turn away .
Is the knowledge of the truth basically the doctrine of the trinity or is it having the Holy Spirit which will lead you into all truth . Orthodox theology is fairly simple with no significant cost ...I may live like the rest of the world ( within limits ) believing the basic tenants of the faith but still be void of truth . I find doing truth and walking in the truth very difficult and costly . Jesus must have thought so too since he says if any man follows me let him first count the cost .

redleghunter said:

some in the broader Pentecostal movement, called United Pentecostals or "Jesus-Only" Pentecostals.

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United Pentecostal is only one group of "Jesus only" people. There also are Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, and others.

The oneness people started in Trinitarian culture, I understand, then they separated. They started with an issue about how to baptize, then went on from there.

public hermit said:

before it was confirmed by council that God is one essence and three hypostases

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I would say it always has been confirmed by Scripture.

So, about the thread question > can you be with Jesus and not believe in the Trinity?

My concern first would be, what therefore do you do because of what you believe? What are the therefores of your belief?

There have been Trinitarians who have hated and slaughtered and tortured people who had non-Trinitarian beliefs. So, I would say their therefores would not be right.

How do you become and live and love, because of what you believe? Can you love like Jesus while not being Trinitarian? Can you be humble and gentle with "rest for your souls"? (Matthew 11:28-30) There are plenty of Trinitarians who can't!!

But I have seen how ones into oneness can be very lording over others and highly and even constantly self-congratulating, exalting themselves and their way of baptizing, in comparison with Trinitarians . . . however not so obviously evaluating themselves in comparison with Jesus and how Jesus has us submitting to our Father and loving as family while also loving any and all people.

In case you believe what is wrong, the wrong spirit of your beliefs can make you wrong emotionally and in how you relate with other people in close sharing, and this helps keep you from relating with and submitting to our Father in His peace > Colossians 3:15. The wrong spirit of wrong beliefs can have us arguing and comparing ourselves with others in order to make ourselves look good.

redleghunter said:

...

Can You Be a Christian and Deny the Trinity?​

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Bible tells that Christian means a disciple of Jesus. And person who remains in words of Jesus is truly a disciple of Jesus. Jesus doesn’t speak about Trinity, so, it clearly is not crucial matter for disciples of Jesus.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

More crucial is for example is person righteous, because eternal life is promised for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

1213 said:

More crucial is for example is person righteous, because eternal life is promised for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

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Now that's a curious thing, isn't it? What were the exact requirements he gave?

redleghunter said:

From Grace to You Ministries:

I would answer, "No." If you don’t believe in the Trinity, then you don’t understand who God is. You may say the word “God” but you don’t understand His nature. Second, you couldn’t possibly understand who Christ is—that He is God in human flesh. The Incarnation of Christ is an essential component of the biblical gospel, as John 1:1-14 and many other biblical passages make clear. To deny the Trinity is to deny the Incarnation. And to deny the Incarnation is to wrongly understand the true gospel.

In saying that, I realize that such an answer is going to not only impact people that you may have witnessed to (like Mormons), but it also applies to some in the broader Pentecostal movement, called United Pentecostals or "Jesus-Only" Pentecostals. Such individuals hold to a kind of modalism, where God is sometimes in the mode of the Father or the mode of the Son or the mode of the Spirit, but He’s never all three at the same time. That too is a deficient and heretical view of the Trinity. It denies the distinct Personhood of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The same question sometimes arises about the virgin birth. I think it is possible for a person to become a Christian before learning about the details of the virgin birth, though that person would certainly assume that Jesus Christ must have had a unique birth since He is both God and man. But, if someone knows about the virgin birth and says, “I deny the virgin birth,” then he is simultaneously denying the deity of Christ, and also the Trinity. Such a person betrays the fact that they do not understand the gospel, and therefore cannot have truly been saved.
Can You Be a Christian and Deny the Trinity?​

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There may be many false teachings and traditions introduced after 100 a.d. associated with all the topics you bring up.

Thus, continue every day to test everything, to learn from Yahweh the truth, and accept what He Reveals, and reject what is not from Him.

1213 said:

Bible tells that Christian means a disciple of Jesus. And person who remains in words of Jesus is truly a disciple of Jesus. Jesus doesn’t speak about Trinity, so, it clearly is not crucial matter for disciples of Jesus.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

More crucial is for example is person righteous, because eternal life is promised for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

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Who is making disciples any more ?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Who is making disciples any more ?

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There are millions of disciples following after men, millions of denominational disciples, but disciples of Jesus, who knows.