Christian: What portions of the Holy Scriptures do you actually believe and trust?

What portions of the Holy Scriptures do you actually believe and trust?

  • Cover to cover, all of it is the Word of God and reliable

    Votes: 55 78.6%
  • Most of it. I don't believe most of the OT is human history but the NT is solidly reliable

    Votes: 1 1.4%
  • I only believe the NT is reliable and the OT is not

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • None of the Scriptures are literal or historically reliable

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I see the Bible as not God's Word but good stories which help me in my spiritual journey

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I'm a non-believer posing as a Christian against forum rules, do I get to vote?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Bible is a human product. Some of it true, some of it questionable

    Votes: 5 7.1%
  • The Bible is largely true as the inspired Word of God, although subject to minor human-induced error

    Votes: 9 12.9%

  • Total voters
    70

redleghunter

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Actually, it's quite complicated. Read Misquoting Jesus - The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why by Bart Ehrmann, Chair of Department of Religious Studies at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Then come back and talk to me.
I respect Ehrmann as a New Testament scholar, even after he departed the faith for agnosticism. He did refute many internet and even radical scholars on their assertion there is no proof of a historical Jesus. He flat out told them "I am one of you and you are all wrong and here is why."

However Ehrmann did not provide any solid evidence of the conspiracy he claims that certain groups within the early church changed Holy Scriptures. There are just too many manuscripts over too many centuries in differing languages to lend support to his claim. It is not an Area 51 type conspiracy he promotes, but more in line with "who knew more and when" type of conspiracy we tend to lend credence to since the 20th century and beyond. Again I respect his credentials but he took his theory to an extreme.

Again, the manuscript history of over 25,000 extant NT manuscripts mostly in Greek, some in Latin and other languages really puts a stake in the heart of his theory. It would have had to be a conspiracy to change the words of Jesus to multiple regions in the 1st and 2nd century AD and everyone would have had to keep a very good secret.
 
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JacksBratt

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Maybe read my post again.....

My point is that you better become a child of God period... After which, you shall die no more.....

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Hope I've made my point clearer.
Yes, I understand. However you made it sound like I stated something other than I said in reality.
 
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redleghunter

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None of them were 'changed' nor 'omitted.' These are careful translators using hundreds if not thousands of manuscripts ensuring the reader knows the variations. Most modern Bibles bracket these and provide the footnote.

Now if you are casting out demons for a living you will certainly pray before doing so as all the manuscripts have that. Only the KJV and other Byzantine tradition manuscripts have and fasting. So fast to be on the safe side. ;)
 
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JacksBratt

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Even our own English translations do not say the same things. Are they all true?
That is why a good minister will go to the originals and use ""strong's when it is necessary to clarify issues... Especially when it is a topic of significance.

They will also usually use at least three pieces of scripture that support the topic. This solidifies the concept.

Have you not noticed that they will do that?
 
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redleghunter

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Is this why, when they found the dead sea scrolls.. and everyone was waiting with baited breath.. to prove the KJV wrong and "expose" all the errors.. they were saddened to see that the dead sea scrolls was intact and exact to what we already had.

Not to mention that The Book of Enoch.. was also in those scrolls.
Ehrmann was more concerned with the NT manuscripts.
 
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redleghunter

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Even our own English translations do not say the same things. Are they all true?
The DSS did a great service for translators and scholars. The Hebrew manuscripts used to translate into English the OT we have in our Bibles today matches the DSS very closely. The differences are minute.

Here's some information. The last link is to a book authored by F.F. Bruce titled "Second Thoughts on the Dead Sea Scrolls." I found it interesting he spent much of his book on what the Qumran community believed and how it influenced the various schools of thought in the time of Jesus. For example, in the Gospel accounts we have people asking "Are you the Messiah, or Elijah or the Prophet Moses promised?" The Qumran community according to Bruce's research did not believe one man would be Messiah (King), Prophet and High Priest. They believed each office would be held by one man for a total of three.


https://www.amazon.com/Second-Thoug...+Scrolls+kindle&qid=1583791771&s=books&sr=1-2
 
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redleghunter

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For those interested in a bit more reading on the reliability of the NT manuscripts (some OT stuff in there too) here are some links:

Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability | CARM.org

Manuscript Evidence for the Bible (by Ron Rhodes)

The Institute for Creation Research

Defending the New Testament Jesus - Christian Research Institute

Manuscript Evidence by David Hocking

Is the New Testament Text Reliable? | Stand to Reason

The Textual Reliability of the New Testament | John Ankerberg Show

http://www.cslewisinstitute.org/webfm_send/410

4. The Manuscripts Tell The Story: The New Testament Is Reliable

A Closer Look: The Historical Reliability of the New Testament

Biblical manuscript - Wikipedia

The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts

Bible Menu

New Testament Manuscripts Copyright by Norman L. Geisler ppt download

The bearing of recent discovery on the trustworthiness of the New Testament : Ramsay, William Mitchell, Sir, 1851-1939 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

A Brief Sample of Archaeology Corroborating the Claims of the New Testament | Cold Case Christianity

New Testament Documents – Date and Authorship

Timeline of New Testament Books - New Testament Charts (Bible History Online)

Mark fragment Qumran: 7Q5: The Earliest NT Papyrus?

Matthew dating: Arguments for a pre-70 CE Dating of Matthew's Gospel

Early Gospels: The case for the early dating of the Gospels

NT documents: New Testament Documents – Date and Authorship

When Was the New Testament Completed?

Archeological Evidence - Evidences of the Bible

https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/ramsay/ramsay_gasque.pdf

Josephus and the Old Testament | Scriptures of the Jewish Bible - the Law, the Prophets and the Writings

Flavius Josephus, Against Apion, BOOK I, Whiston section 8 --Josephus

Book of Daniel scholarship: An Introduction to the Book of Daniel

Biblical timelines: Time Line Survey of Bible Events

Daniel DSS: New Light on the Book of Daniel from the Dead Sea Scrolls

Jewish Talmud and Death of Jesus: The Jewish Talmud and the Death of Christ

Evidence external of historical Jesus Christ: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

Testimony of the Evangelists - Wikipedia

4. Jesus Feeds 5,000 People (Matthew 14:13-21; Mark 6:30-44; Luke 9:10-17; John 6:1-15)

The Testimony of Two or Three Witnesses: We Can Trust the Factuality of the Gospel, by Bob and Gretchen Passantino

The testimony of the evangelists examined by the rules of evidence administered in courts of justice : Greenleaf, Simon, 1783-1853 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls - Daniel 9 Daniel 9fragments.
 
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d taylor

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Please explain.
Genesis 4:1 most Bibles the verse, is this reading.
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.
"from the" or "with the help of" is not in the original Hebrew.
The original Hebrew reads: And the man knew Eve his wife, she conceived and bare Cain and said "I have gotten a man:Jehovah".

A detail read about this is posted in the images/files below
Genesis 4 (a).jpg

Genesis 4 (b).jpg


As for Job 26:7
Job 26:7 two words are in play, hang and nothing (talah and belimah) .
In strongs hang is, 8518. talah and also in strongs nothing is 1099. belimah.

belimah is not used any where else in the Bible so it is this word that is hard to test the meaning of from the Bible.

But talah is use and in its use it is always to hang, suspend, or support by actual contact, never from nothing.
The Hebrew word talah means to hang, suspend, or support by actual contact, not by nothing
Examples: Genesis 40:19, Psalms 137:2,
Ezekiel 15:3

From Terra Firma: By David Wardlaw Scott
belimeh wrongly translated "nothing" is the crucial word. translators appear to have derived it from the noun blee, signifying consumption or desolation, and the pronoun meh, who which what, but the meaning "nothing" drawn from these words, seems to be very far fetched. Hebrew is a very ancient language, to all probability the most ancient of any, and this being the only place in the Bible where the word belimeh occurs, it is, of course, difficult to test the meaning. I have myself, however, not the slightest doubt, that Parkhurst is right in deriving the noun belimeh from the verb belem, to confine, restrain, or hold in, so used in
Psalm 32:9 Do not be like the horse or like the mule, Which have no understanding, Which must be harnessed(belem) with bit and bridle, Else they will not come near you.
and that belimeh simply means "fastenings," or "supports," and this interpretation exactly agrees with what God asked Job a little farther on in Job 38:6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone, But while I consider Parkhurst to be correct as to the rendering of the word belimeh, I believe him to be wrong as to the strange application of it which he makes.
______________________________
The Bible several times states the earth is set on foundations. Never is it stated in the Bible except in the wrongly translated Job 26:7 the earth hangs on nothing. That idea has been imported into the Bible from translators who want the Bible to in this one verse agree with science.

So the reading supported by the Bible would be.
He stretches out the North over the empty space;
and hangs (supporteth) the earth on fastenings (foundations).

Which is supported a few chapters over in Job, when God ask Job in 38:6
“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
 
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faroukfarouk

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I do have one caveat about context. Some of the laws in the Old Testament were Israel-specific, like those regarding the assignment of tribal lands. I am not sure how they are relevant to Gentile believers. Maybe when He establishes His Thearchy...?
Good to remember also that the law was changed (Hebrews 7.12) and what we now have is better than the law (Hebrews 7.19).
 
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redleghunter

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Genesis 4:1 most Bibles the verse, is this reading.
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.
"from the" or "with the help of" is not in the original Hebrew.
The original Hebrew reads: And the man knew Eve his wife, she conceived and bare Cain and said "I have gotten a man:Jehovah".

A detail read about this is posted in the images/files below
View attachment 272939
View attachment 272940

As for Job 26:7
Job 26:7 two words are in play, hang and nothing (talah and belimah) .
In strongs hang is, 8518. talah and also in strongs nothing is 1099. belimah.

belimah is not used any where else in the Bible so it is this word that is hard to test the meaning of from the Bible.

But talah is use and in its use it is always to hang, suspend, or support by actual contact, never from nothing.
The Hebrew word talah means to hang, suspend, or support by actual contact, not by nothing
Examples: Genesis 40:19, Psalms 137:2,
Ezekiel 15:3

From Terra Firma: By David Wardlaw Scott
belimeh wrongly translated "nothing" is the crucial word. translators appear to have derived it from the noun blee, signifying consumption or desolation, and the pronoun meh, who which what, but the meaning "nothing" drawn from these words, seems to be very far fetched. Hebrew is a very ancient language, to all probability the most ancient of any, and this being the only place in the Bible where the word belimeh occurs, it is, of course, difficult to test the meaning. I have myself, however, not the slightest doubt, that Parkhurst is right in deriving the noun belimeh from the verb belem, to confine, restrain, or hold in, so used in
Psalm 32:9 Do not be like the horse or like the mule, Which have no understanding, Which must be harnessed(belem) with bit and bridle, Else they will not come near you.
and that belimeh simply means "fastenings," or "supports," and this interpretation exactly agrees with what God asked Job a little farther on in Job 38:6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone, But while I consider Parkhurst to be correct as to the rendering of the word belimeh, I believe him to be wrong as to the strange application of it which he makes.
______________________________
The Bible several times states the earth is set on foundations. Never is it stated in the Bible except in the wrongly translated Job 26:7 the earth hangs on nothing. That idea has been imported into the Bible from translators who want the Bible to in this one verse agree with science.

So the reading supported by the Bible would be.
He stretches out the North over the empty space;
and hangs (supporteth) the earth on fastenings (foundations).

Which is supported a few chapters over in Job, when God ask Job in 38:6
“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
This is very interesting but not seeing the significance.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You may be asking, if such Christians exist, and they do, "why bother." That is something I would like to explore as well as gain an understanding of where these professed Christian churches get their beliefs and what objective truths lead them to deny the Holy Scriptures are not the Word of God.
The whole idea escapes me.

How does trying to understand the fallen ones , the rebellious ones, the ones who reject the Messiah Jesus,
help in any way ? (specifically, is it written anywhere in Scripture, is it directed anywhere by Yahweh, to do such a thing ? )
 
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redleghunter

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The whole idea escapes me.

How does trying to understand the fallen ones , the rebellious ones, the ones who reject the Messiah Jesus,
help in any way ? (specifically, is it written anywhere in Scripture, is it directed anywhere by Yahweh, to do such a thing ? )
I will take that as a "yes" you believe and trust in all of God's Holy Word the Bible. Thank you!
 
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redleghunter

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The original Hebrew reads: And the man knew Eve his wife, she conceived and bare Cain and said "I have gotten a man:Jehovah".
Ah after reading Ariel's commentary I believe he is indicating that Eve bore Jehovah? How is that possible?
 
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d taylor

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Ah after reading Ariel's commentary I believe he is indicating that Eve bore Jehovah? How is that possible?

No, that she thought she had, God made a promise in Genesis 3:15 to send a redeemer (her seed) because of their sin in the garden.
She mistakenly thought that she had birth this redeemer.
In the next verse she names her next son Abel meaning vanity, realizing her mistake.
 
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redleghunter

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No, that she thought she had, God made a promise in Genesis 3:15 to send a redeemer (her seed) because of their sin in the garden.
She mistakenly thought that she had birth this redeemer.
In the next verse she names her next son Abel meaning vanity, realizing her mistake.
Interesting. But Cain and Able were if the seed of Adam.
 
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Peter J Barban

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I believe the Bible, cover to cover, is God's word.

Subjectively, I can sense the "ring of truth" that every scripture has and no other writing does.

In seminary, for a Greek test, we had to translate a passage from the Didache. Having heard of it, but not read it before, I was shocked at how inferior it was to the scriptures.

The same with the Apocrypha and early church fathers- they just can't compare with the Bible. Likewise, for every other writing I have ever read.
 
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