Killing unborn babies -- is it a moral question or just politics?

Thomas White

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The baby is irrefutably "human" at this point of 8 weeks and the core issue is the "value of human life".

Your statement "think on its own" is an emotional statement - you don't know what the brain is doing at that point.

==============================

from : -- Baby Brain Development

Week 7 The neurons in this week are multiplying at a rapid rate, thus, the brain is growing at a rapid rate. Its formation is nearing completion.

Week 8 By the eighth week, the head is quite large when compared to the rest of the body. The baby brain development activities reach a new high when there is further development of the hind brain, which is the center responsible for regulating vital activities, like the heartbeat, breathing rate, etc.
Read more at iBuzzle: Baby Brain Development

Again, your post is misleading. The brain and nervous system is not fully formed until the 33rd week. During the 8th week, the development is only beginning. Multiplying neurons does not equate thought. It equates to growth. A fetus cannot qualify as human at that point. It cannot move, think, or even breathe outside the womb.
 
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Jaqui Francis

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Again, your post is misleading. The brain and nervous system is not fully formed until the 33rd week. During the 8th week, the development is only beginning. Multiplying neurons does not equate thought. It equates to growth. A fetus cannot qualify as human at that point. It cannot move, think, or even breathe outside the womb.

A fetus is a Human. Why are denying that? It's got our DNA. It being Human or not is not part of the argument and you shouldn't be a part of the argument if you're going to deny facts. If you want to choose the mother over the baby then say that, but you are ending the life of a Human, a Human with limitless potential even if they have no memories yet.
 
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Thomas White

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A fetus is a Human. Why are denying that? It's got our DNA. It being Human or not is not part of the argument and you shouldn't be a part of the argument if you're going to deny facts. If you want to choose the mother over the baby then say that, but you are ending the life of a Human, a Human with limitless potential even if they have no memories yet.

A human fetus has the potential to be a human. It is not a human until it survives development. By your argument, every sperm and egg in the human body is a human with limitless potential. That is simply not true.
 
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A human fetus has the potential to be a human. It is not a human until it survives development. By your argument, every sperm and egg in the human body is a human with limitless potential. That is simply not true.

You're presenting a straw man argument. Alone, neither an egg nor sperm, complete the double helix, which defines the unique DNA of a unique person.

(CLV) Lk 1:41
And it occurred, as Elizabeth hears the salutation of Mary, the babe jumps in her womb, and Elizabeth is filled with holy spirit,
 
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Thomas White

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You're presenting a straw man argument. Alone, neither an egg nor sperm, complete the double helix, which defines the unique DNA of a unique person.

Nor does the combination until the fetus develops to a certain point, not until enough replication occurs. Just because something has some of the components of humanity does not make it a human.
 
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Jaqui Francis

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A human fetus has the potential to be a human. It is not a human until it survives development. By your argument, every sperm and egg in the human body is a human with limitless potential. That is simply not true.

Once it comes together it's a Human.
 
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Nor does the combination until the fetus develops to a certain point, not until enough replication occurs. Just because something has some of the components of humanity does not make it a human.

Sorry, you're entitled to your own personal opinion; but you are not entitled to your own personal facts. All of the unique necessary code is contained in the double helix at conception. At that point, the child has unique DNA, unlike anyone else in the world.

(CLV) Lk 1:41
And it occurred, as Elizabeth hears the salutation of Mary, the babe jumps in her womb, and Elizabeth is filled with holy spirit,

New King James Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
 
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BobRyan

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Once it comes together it's a Human.

Suppose someone has no Bible - is an atheist -- and they just can't quite figure out if killing a baby is murder. Easy test - if a woman gives birth to a baby after 4 months of pregnancy and somebody runs into the room and kills the Baby - are they charged with the crime of murder?

If so then even the non-Christian runs-by-the-worlds-standard citizen knows it is murder.
 
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BobRyan

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That resolution was back in 2009, never brought to a vote, and never implemented.
As interesting as that detail is - the more interesting detail is the list of historic facts they included in that resolution - history that does not "get deleted" if a resolution never made it to the floor for a vote.

from - Text - H.Res.397
...

  • Whereas political scientists have documented that the most frequently cited source in the political period known as The Founding Era was the Bible;

  • Whereas the first act of America’s first Congress in 1774 was to ask a minister to open with prayer and to lead Congress in the reading of 4 chapters of the Bible;

  • Whereas Congress regularly attended church and Divine service together en masse;

  • Whereas throughout the American Founding, Congress frequently appropriated money for missionaries and for religious instruction, a practice that Congress repeated for decades after the passage of the Constitution and the First Amendment;

  • Whereas in 1776, Congress approved the Declaration of Independence with its 4 direct religious acknowledgments referring to God as the Creator (“All people are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”), the Lawgiver (“the laws of nature and nature’s God”), the Judge (“appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world”), and the Protector (“with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence”);
Whereas the Liberty Bell was named for the Biblical inscription from Leviticus 25:10 emblazoned around it: “Proclaim liberty throughout the land, to all the inhabitants thereof”;

  • Whereas in 1777, Congress, facing a National shortage of “Bibles for our schools, and families, and for the public worship of God in our churches,” announced that they “desired to have a Bible printed under their care & by their encouragement” and therefore ordered 20,000 copies of the Bible to be imported “into the different ports of the States of the Union”;

  • Whereas in 1782, Congress pursued a plan to print a Bible that would be “a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools” and therefore approved the production of the first English language Bible printed in America that contained the congressional endorsement that “the United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States”;

  • ...

  • Whereas the 1783 Treaty of Paris that officially endied the Revolution and established America as an independent begins with the appellation “In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity”;

  • Whereas in 1787, at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, Benjamin Franklin declared, “God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? … Without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel”;

  • Whereas the delegates to the Constitutional Convention concluded their work by in effect placing a religious punctuation mark at the end of the Constitution in the Attestation Clause, noting not only that they had completed the work with “the unanimous consent of the States present” but they had done so “in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven”;

  • Whereas James Madison declared that he saw the finished Constitution as a product of “the finger of that Almighty Hand which has been so frequently and signally extended to our relief in the critical stages of the Revolution,” and George Washington viewed it as “little short of a miracle,” and Benjamin Franklin believed that its writing had been “influenced, guided, and governed by that omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent Ruler, in Whom all inferior spirits live, and move, and have their being”;

  • Whereas, from 1787 to 1788, State conventions to ratify the United States Constitution not only began with prayer but even met in church buildings;

  • Whereas in 1795, during construction of the Capitol, a practice was instituted whereby “public worship is now regularly administered at the Capitol, every Sunday morning, at 11 o’clock”;

  • Whereas in 1789, the first Federal Congress, the Congress that framed the Bill of Rights, including the First Amendment, appropriated Federal funds to pay chaplains to pray at the opening of all sessions, a practice that has continued to this day, with Congress not only funding its congressional chaplains but also the salaries and operations of more than 4,500 military chaplains;

  • Whereas in 1789, Congress, in the midst of framing the Bill of Rights and the First Amendment, passed the first Federal law touching education, declaring that “Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged”;

  • Whereas in 1789, on the same day that Congress finished drafting the First Amendment, it requested President Washington to declare a National day of prayer and thanksgiving, resulting in the first Federal official Thanksgiving proclamation that declared “it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor”;

  • Whereas in 1800, Congress enacted naval regulations requiring that Divine service be performed twice every day aboard “all ships and vessels in the navy,” with a sermon preached each Sunday;

  • Whereas in 1800, Congress approved the use of the just-completed Capitol structure as a church building, with Divine services to be held each Sunday in the Hall of the House, alternately administered by the House and Senate chaplains;

  • Whereas in 1853, Congress declared that congressional chaplains have a “duty … to conduct religious services weekly in the Hall of the House of Representatives”;

  • Whereas by 1867, the church at the Capitol was the largest church in Washington, DC, with up to 2,000 people a week attending Sunday service in the Hall of the House;

  • Whereas by 1815, over 2,000 official governmental calls to prayer had been issued at both the State and the Federal levels, with thousands more issued since 1815;

  • Whereas in 1853, the United States Senate declared that the Founding Fathers “had no fear or jealousy of religion itself, nor did they wish to see us an irreligious people . . . they did not intend to spread over all the public authorities and the whole public action of the nation the dead and revolting spectacle of atheistical apathy”;

  • Whereas in 1854, the United States House of Representatives declared “It [religion] must be considered as the foundation on which the whole structure rests … Christianity; in its general principles, is the great conservative element on which we must rely for the purity and permanence of free institutions”;

  • Whereas in 1864, by law Congress added “In God We Trust” to American coinage;
    ..

  • Whereas, beginning in 1904 and continuing for the next half-century, the Federal Government printed and distributed The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth for the use of Members of Congress because of the important teachings it contained;

  • ...

  • Whereas the constitutions of each of the 50 States, either in the preamble or body, explicitly recognize or express gratitude to God;

  • Whereas America’s first Presidential Inauguration incorporated 7 specific religious activities, including—

    (1) the use of the Bible to administer the oath;

    (2) affirming the religious nature of the oath by the adding the prayer “So help me God!” to the oath;

    (3) inaugural prayers offered by the President;

    (4) religious content in the inaugural address;

    (5) civil leaders calling the people to prayer or acknowledgment of God;

    (6) inaugural worship services attended en masse by Congress as an official part of congressional activities; and

    (7) clergy-led inaugural prayers, activities which have been replicated in whole or part by every subsequent President;

  • Whereas President George Washington declared “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports”;

  • Whereas President John Adams, one of only 2 signers of the Bill of Rights and First Amendment, declared “As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him”;

  • Whereas President Jefferson not only attended Divine services at the Capitol throughout his presidency and had the Marine Band play at the services, but during his administration church services were also begun in the War Department and the Treasury Department, thus allowing worshippers on any given Sunday the choice to attend church at either the United States Capitol, the War Department, or the Treasury Department if they so desired;

  • Whereas Thomas Jefferson urged local governments to make land available specifically for Christian purposes, provided Federal funding for missionary work among Indian tribes, and declared that religious schools would receive “the patronage of the government”;

  • Whereas President Andrew Jackson declared that the Bible “is the rock on which our Republic rests”;

  • Whereas President Abraham Lincoln declared that the Bible “is the best gift God has given to men . . . But for it, we could not know right from wrong”

  • Whereas President William McKinley declared that “Our faith teaches us that there is no safer reliance than upon the God of our fathers, Who has so singularly favored the American people in every national trial and Who will not forsake us so long as we obey His commandments and walk humbly in His footsteps”;

  • ...
    Whereas all sessions of the United States Supreme Court begin with the Court’s Marshal announcing, “God save the United States and this honorable court”;

  • Whereas a regular and integral part of official activities in the Federal courts, including the United States Supreme Court, was the inclusion of prayer by a minister of the Gospel;

  • Whereas the United States Supreme Court has declared throughout the course of our Nation’s history that the United States is “a Christian country”, “a Christian nation”, “a Christian people”, “a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being”, and that “we cannot read into the Bill of Rights a philosophy of hostility to religion”;

  • Whereas Justice John Jay, an author of the Federalist Papers and original Justice of the United States Supreme Court, urged “The most effectual means of securing the continuance of our civil and religious liberties is always to remember with reverence and gratitude the Source from which they flow”;

  • Whereas Justice James Wilson, a signer of the Constitution, declared that “Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is Divine … Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants”;

  • Whereas Justice William Paterson, a signer of the Constitution, declared that “Religion and morality . . . [are] necessary to good government, good order, and good laws”;

  • Whereas President George Washington, who passed into law the first legal acts organizing the Federal judiciary, asked, “where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths in the courts of justice?”;

  • Whereas some of the most important monuments, buildings, and landmarks in Washington, DC, include religious words, symbols, and imagery;

  • Whereas in the United States Capitol the declaration “In God We Trust” is prominently displayed in both the United States House and Senate Chambers;

  • Whereas around the top of the walls in the House Chamber appear images of 23 great lawgivers from across the centuries, but Moses (the lawgiver, who—according to the Bible—originally received the law from God,) is the only lawgiver honored with a full face view, looking down on the proceedings of the House;

  • ...

    Whereas images of the Ten Commandments are found in many Federal buildings across Washington, DC, including in bronze in the floor of the National Archives; in a bronze statue of Moses in the Main Reading Room of the Library of Congress; in numerous locations at the U.S. Supreme Court, including in the frieze above the Justices, the oak door at the rear of the Chamber, the gable apex, and in dozens of locations on the bronze latticework surrounding the Supreme Court Bar seating;

  • Whereas in the Washington Monument not only are numerous Bible verses and religious acknowledgments carved on memorial blocks in the walls, including the phrases: “Holiness to the Lord” (Exodus 28:26, 30:30, Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20), “Search the Scriptures” (John 5:39), “The memory of the just is blessed” (Proverbs 10:7), “May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence”, and “In God We Trust”, but the Latin inscription Laus Deo meaning “Praise be to God” is engraved on the monument’s capstone;

  • Whereas of the 5 areas inside the Jefferson Memorial into which Jefferson’s words have been carved, 4 are God-centered, including Jefferson’s declaration that “God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever”;

  • Whereas the Lincoln Memorial contains numerous acknowledgments of God and citations of Bible verses, including the declarations that “we here highly resolve that . . . this nation under God . . . shall not perish from the earth”; “The Almighty has His own purposes. ‘Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh’” (Matthew 18:7), “as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said ‘the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether’” (Psalms 19:9), “one day every valley shall be exalted and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh see it together” (Dr. Martin Luther King’s speech, based on Isaiah 40:4–5);

  • Whereas in the Library of Congress, The Giant Bible of Mainz, and The Gutenberg Bible are on prominent permanent display and etched on the walls are Bible verses, including: “The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not” (John 1:5), “Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore, get wisdom and with all thy getting, get understanding” (Proverbs 4:7), “What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God” (Micah 6:8), and “The heavens declare the Glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handiwork” (Psalm 19:1);

  • Whereas numerous other of the most important American government leaders, institutions, monuments, buildings, and landmarks both openly acknowledge and incorporate religious words, symbols, and imagery into official venues;

many interesting historic "facts that do not change" listed in that resolution including

Text - H.Res.397

Whereas the United States Supreme Court has declared throughout the course of our Nation’s history that the United States isa Christian country”, “a Christian nation”, “a Christian people”, “a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being”, and that “we cannot read into the Bill of Rights a philosophy of hostility to religion”;
 
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Thomas White

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Sorry, you're entitled to your own personal opinion; but you are not entitled to your own personal facts. All of the unique necessary code is contained in the double helix at conception. At that point, the child has unique DNA, unlike anyone else in the world.

(CLV) Lk 1:41
And it occurred, as Elizabeth hears the salutation of Mary, the babe jumps in her womb, and Elizabeth is filled with holy spirit,

New King James Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Again, that does not make it human. It has not developed. Having human DNA does not a human make. THAT is fact.
 
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Thomas White

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Once it comes together it's a Human.

It certainly has the potential to be a human, but it is not a fully developed human with the ability to think, function, and survive on it's own. It is just a fetus until after the first trimester.
 
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Thomas White

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Again, Yes it does.



It has developed; yet no child of any age is fully developed.



Straw man argument. It's apparent THAT you consider fallacious arguments as fact.

Everything I just said is biological science. Ban abortions in the first trimester and the abortion rate will not go down. The mortality rate of potential mothers will go up.
 
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GenemZ

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Was Adam's body fully formed before any life was breathed into his nostrils? Yes, it was. Was he a living soul before? No. So, its not a matter of how formed an embryo/fetus may be in determining what is needed to know.

The real question is... When does God impute the human soul to the human body? What does the Bible say?

That would be the needed major breakthrough in settling the abortion issue in various ways to make it according to the Word of God.

If an angel attached electrodes to Adam's body and sent an electrical charge into an arm and made it move? Would that body be alive? Without a soul? No.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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A fetus is a Human. Why are denying that?

Legally it is not. In practice it is not. Morally depending on your views it is or isn’t.

Nobody is going to save a fetus in test jar over a screaming six year old girl when house is on fire.

Someone cutting electricity to fetus storing area will not be charged of mass murder.

Very few people would be willing to live in nation that shot around 900 000 thousand children a year on the streets.

Yet with that number of abortions people seem to limit their outrage on forums Like these and justify it enough of an action in a nation where almost a million “children” are murdered yearly.

Funny how second amendment people let this happen. If having nearly a million people murdered every year is not a reason for revolution then what is?
 
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