LEARN IT! THAT'S AN ORDER!

Chris V++

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There's some great folklore... very old..

After the Fall God punished Adam and Eve by expelling them and separating them for 130 years. So Adam shacked up with Lilith and she gave birth to lots of demons. When the 130 years were up God forgave Adam and Eve. (no original sin) They reunited built an altar and sacrificed to God.

This one is new to me. I have heard that some believe some angels reproduced with human females creating a hybrid offspring - the Nephilim, the ' giants of the Earth.' I was listening to podcast about it which referred to those angels as 'the watchers.' I've heard it extrapolated that Goliath was one too, but he was post- flood of course.
 
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keras

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Al Touthentop

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Hi Al. I've refrained from answering, but some of your answers may confuse some, so, what was our Beloved answering in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21? He was answering His disciples, who asked Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?" The world is still here Al, and I don't see the Lord, yet.

But he didn't say he was coming in person, and he said that everything, not just some of what he said, would take place in their lifetimes. Their questions were directly related to his revelation that the temple would not have one stone left standing. They're not questions about a different event.

He said that they would "see the sign of the Son of Man coming on the clouds." He was letting them know that these events were in Judgement. The heavenly powers being shaken is traditional prophetic language, it isn't literal.

Tell me what use would be running to the hills above Jerusalem if he was talking about the day of Judgement.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Al Touthentop

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No, that is not what my Lord Jesus said. You have to keep what He said in context with what He was talking about. You cannot take the "This generation" phrase out of the verse and isolate it from the CONTEXT of that chapter. He was talking about all those things being fulfilled signaling the day of His 2nd coming. That was the subject.

That just isn't in the text.


Matt 24:33-37
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

KJV

You can't take 'this generation' out of this context because it's right there. If he was talking about his second coming or the day of judgement, then he was telling them that it would happen in their lifetimes. Thus we have missed the second coming!

But he wasn't talking about his second coming, he was talking about the wrath he would deliver on Jerusalem.

On the day of judgement, are you going to buy a plane ticket to Jerusalem so you can hide in the caves as he instructed?
 
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Davy

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That just isn't in the text.

Matt 24:33-37
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

KJV

But he wasn't talking about his second coming, he was talking about the wrath he would deliver on Jerusalem.

On the day of judgement, are you going to buy a plane ticket to Jerusalem so you can hide in the caves as he instructed?

Yes Jesus was talking about His 2nd coming, because the signs He gave in answer to them parallel the Seals of Revelation 6 about the end.

At the end of Matthew 23 He was talking to the unbelieving Jews of leaving Jerusalem desolate. In Matthew 24 He was with His disciples upon the Mount of Olives speaking to them, and they then asked what the sign of His coming would be, not only the idea of destruction upon the temple mount.

And in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 verses, Jesus was specifically... talking about His 2nd coming and gathering of His Church. You are obviously listening to something else instead of reading those Scriptures in their simplicity.

As for your last statement, I won't bother addressing that little taunt.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Yes Jesus was talking about His 2nd coming, because the signs He gave in answer to them parallel the Seals of Revelation 6 about the end.

They weren't asking about his second coming. In fact, at the time they didn't think he was going to be crucified. They still thought that he was going to become a great military leader because the prophecies all had that feel to them. They knew he would be bringing judgement on Israel but they thought he would be doing it as a physical King.
At the end of Matthew 23 He was talking to the unbelieving Jews of leaving Jerusalem desolate. In Matthew 24 He was with His disciples upon the Mount of Olives speaking to them, and they then asked what the sign of His coming would be, not only the idea of destruction upon the temple mount.

Which was the result of Titus's siege. They asked about the sign of his coming because they thought he was literally going to lead his own army as King of Israel.

And in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 verses, Jesus was specifically... talking about His 2nd coming and gathering of His Church. You are obviously listening to something else instead of reading those Scriptures in their simplicity.

He tells them that when they see the signs he's given them, they are to leave Jerusalem immediately, to flee to the hills. That makes no sense in the context of his second coming. At all. Paul tells us that those who have died will be resurrected on that day and those that are alive will be taken to meet Jesus in the air. That isn't what Jesus was relating here.

Jesus did say that the angels would gather his people from the four ends of the earth to redeem them from this great destruction. That wasn't the literal entire earth but from the land so they would not suffer the siege. And historically, that's what happened. Church tradition has it that the Jerusalem church left the city and gathered in Pela. Not one was lost.

He said that everything he told them, even the sign of his coming on the clouds, would happen in their lifetimes. There are not two separate events being discussed there.

You could relate almost any two prophecies in the bible by the language used because prophetic language is always in grandiose and hyperbolic terms. But they are not always related. The fact that Matthew 24 and parts of Revelation are similar in language does not necessarily mean that they are talking about the same thing.

In Acts for instance, the phrase "breaking of bread" means two different things in the context. In one place it means a regular meal and in another, just a few sentences away, it means partaking of the Lord's supper.


As for your last statement, I won't bother addressing that little taunt.

Why not? The logical conclusion one must make if they think that Jesus is speaking of some far away generation in the future, is that they must at his second coming flee to the hills above Jerusalem.
 
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Davy

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They weren't asking about his second coming. In fact, at the time they didn't think he was going to be crucified. They still thought that he was going to become a great military leader because the prophecies all had that feel to them. They knew he would be bringing judgement on Israel but they thought he would be doing it as a physical King.

You are wrong, and mis-representing what is written in God's Word; no sense in me trying to sugarcoat what you're doing:

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

KJV

The rest of your post is just a tirade against what is actually written there in Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, which parallel the signs He gave in the Seals of Revelation 6 about the end of this world.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Hi Al. I've refrained from answering, but some of your answers may confuse some, so, what was our Beloved answering in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21? He was answering His disciples, who asked Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?" The world is still here Al, and I don't see the Lord, yet.

One thing I didn't comment on here was this "end of the world" phrase. In the NKJV it's translated "end of the age" because the word 'αινοn' - where we get our word aeon, means age. Sometimes its translated world. In this context, they were asking about the end of the age, their understanding of what was being described in prophecy. "The last days" we can read about in Joel and other prophetic books. They weren't all talking about the end of the world, but the end of the covenant and the delivering of the new covenant promised in many prophecies but specifically Jeremiah.
 
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Al Touthentop

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You are wrong, and mis-representing what is written in God's Word; no sense in me trying to sugarcoat what you're doing:

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

KJV

The rest of your post is just a tirade against what is actually written there in Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, which parallel the signs He gave in the Seals of Revelation 6 about the end of this world.

There is no tirade going on. The fact that you read that question and immediately jump to the conclusion that they are asking about the destruction of the earth should be obvious even to yourself.

What purpose would it serve to flee to the hills above Jerusalem on the day of Judgement? Do you think anyone will escape that day by doing so?
 
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Davy

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There is no tirade going on. The fact that you read that question and immediately jump to the conclusion that they are asking about the destruction of the earth should be obvious even to yourself.

What purpose would it serve to flee to the hills above Jerusalem on the day of Judgement? Do you think anyone will escape that day by doing so?

No jumping to conclusions, you have rejected the very phrase in red below...

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

KJV

Can you say, "what shall be the sign of Thy coming" like they asked Him?
 
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Al Touthentop

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No jumping to conclusions, you have rejected the very phrase in red below...

You are misunderstanding me. I am not throwing that phrase out, I just do not think it means the second coming or day of judgement when the resurrection happens. And the reason I don't think it means that and can't mean that, is because Jesus said that everything he had related to them would occur in their lifetime.

Because he tells them that when they see the armies surrounding Jerusalem (the abomination of desolation as spoken of in Daniel) they are to leave the city and flee to the hills, I view this as specific to them and in the near future, not thousands of years later and not to us who are reading this much later.

He said to them, 'when you see these things,' making it plain that they personally were going to see the things he was warning about. He did not explain it as something that was far in the future. You are making an assumption that it is in the far future, in spite of all the language which indicates it will happen in their near future.



Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

KJV
 
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Davy

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You are misunderstanding me. I am not throwing that phrase out, I just do not think it means the second coming or day of judgement when the resurrection happens. And the reason I don't think it means that and can't mean that, is because Jesus said that everything he had related to them would occur in their lifetime.

Doesn't appear that I'm misunderstanding you at all. You simply say that phrase isn't about the second coming of Christ Jesus when that is exactly... what that phrase is about.

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV


How do you expect me to continue a conversation with you if you can't accept that Scripture as written in its simplicity?
 
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Al Touthentop

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Doesn't appear that I'm misunderstanding you at all. You simply say that phrase isn't about the second coming of Christ Jesus when that is exactly... what that phrase is about.

If it is, then there are two problems. One, some of those standing there during the conversation must be alive today, and the second coming already happened.
 
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Davy

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If it is, then there are two problems. One, some of those standing there during the conversation must be alive today, and the second coming already happened.

And that idea is only getting away from the subject of that Matthew 24:3 phrase "what shall be the sign of Thy coming?"

If you cannot admit that phrase as written, which is about Christ's disciples there, in private, asking Jesus' about the sign of His future coming, then how can you progress further in Christ's Olivet discourse, because you haven't understood the main point of His giving them the signs right after their question?
 
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Al Touthentop

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And that idea is only getting away from the subject of that Matthew 24:3 phrase "what shall be the sign of Thy coming?"


Not at all. The question has to also be considered in the context of the answer. You think they're asking about the end of the world. But the answer to their question is not about the end of the world and you want to remove the answer from the context, asserting that the question was about the Last Day.

What you fail to see is that Jesus did not give them an answer that wasn't specific to their question. He says that everything, all, that he said in answer to them would happen while they still lived.


If you cannot admit that phrase as written, which is about Christ's disciples there, in private, asking Jesus' about the sign of His future coming, then how can you progress further in Christ's Olivet discourse, because you haven't understood the main point of His giving them the signs right after their question?

I have already told you several times that I admit the phrase as written. The dispute is over what that question is referring to, and judging by Jesus' answer, it cannot possibly be referring to the Day of Judgement when everyone is resurrected. He doesn't even mention resurrection and he tells them that everything is going to take place within their generation, not some unknown future generation.
 
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iamlamad

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Not at all. The question has to also be considered in the context of the answer. You think they're asking about the end of the world. But the answer to their question is not about the end of the world and you want to remove the answer from the context, asserting that the question was about the Last Day.

What you fail to see is that Jesus did not give them an answer that wasn't specific to their question. He says that everything, all, that he said in answer to them would happen while they still lived.




I have already told you several times that I admit the phrase as written. The dispute is over what that question is referring to, and judging by Jesus' answer, it cannot possibly be referring to the Day of Judgement when everyone is resurrected. He doesn't even mention resurrection and he tells them that everything is going to take place within their generation, not some unknown future generation.

Matthew 24: Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Mark 13:4 Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

Luke 21: So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

Jesus had just spoken that every stone of the temple would be torn down. It is very simple: they asked Him WHEN - but He never answered that question.

They asked him about the end of the age, and the signs for the end of the age, and these questions He answered. Comparing scripture with scripture, the end of THEIR (Jewish men as the question as to the end of THEIR) age.

It is simple: the 70th week of Daniel will be the final 7 years of the Jewish age. This has nothing to do with the end of the church age. The church age ends with the pretrib rapture and at that point God's focus returns to Israel for their final 7 years.

I think you need to read it a little closer.
 
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Al Touthentop

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They asked him about the end of the age, and the signs for the end of the age, and these questions He answered. Comparing scripture with scripture, the end of THEIR (Jewish men as the question as to the end of THEIR) age.

It is simple: the 70th week of Daniel will be the final 7 years of the Jewish age. This has nothing to do with the end of the church age. The church age ends with the pretrib rapture and at that point God's focus returns to Israel for their final 7 years.

I think you need to read it a little closer.

They asked their questions in response to his revelation that the temple would be destroyed. They knew the difference between the Last Day and the end of the age, two different things. If you want to see how well they knew this difference, read Martha's conversation with Jesus after Lazarus died in John.

The 70th week of Daniel has already passed because God does not change his prophecy. He said that there were 70 weeks determined for ALL the things he said would occur and everything he said that would happen in that 70 weeks happened. He didn't postpone the 70th week for some later time. The Messiah came in the 70th week and was crucified in the middle of the 70th week.

The church IS Israel, a reconciled body of Jews and Gentiles.

Ephesians 2
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

We as Christians are Jews.

Romans 2
28 A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

Jewishness is no longer measured by circumcision or genealogy but by obedience to the gospel.
 
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HARK!

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The sin in the Garden of Eden was not about eating a forbidden apple, it was about sex. Satan was trying to compromise the Seed line of Jesus Christ, through Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David . . . When Adam and Eve were seduced by the devil, their sin, their disobedience to God,had to be covered, so we have the beginning of the parable.

There is nothing in that passage to state anything of the sort.

Before they ate of the tree; they were with the father. All they knew was good. After they ate of the tree; they knew good and evil.



Despite repeated attempts by Satan to destroy the righteous fig tree Seed line of Christ he ultimately failed after the final temptation of Christ in Matthew 4 when he told our Beloved: All these things will I give Thee, if Thou wilt fall down and worship me. Notice that Satan had the power until our Lord went on the cross and took it from him. Here is the end of the parable of the fig tree.

Hi Brother,

This happened long before the cross. If satan had any power over Yahshua; he wouldn't be asking Yahshua to submit to him. He would be demanding it.

I stopped reading here. I didn't want to continue to the conclusion of an argument that was built on faulty premises.

Shalom
 
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iamlamad

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They knew the difference between the Last Day and the end of the age, two different things. If you want to see how well they knew this difference, read Martha's conversation with Jesus after Lazarus died in John.

This is a HUGE assumption and it is assuming in error. About all they knew was that one day there would be a resurrection, and one day their Messiah would create a physical kingdom on earth. Remember the disciples asking Jesus if He was about to restore their kingdom - and He answered that it was not for them to know.

Martha said, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” What was "the last day" in her mind? We really don't know. All we know is that she associated it with the resurrection. In the book of John, several times Jesus said He would raise them up (the Jews) on the "last day."

I don't know what Martha thought about it, but I think "the last day" will be the last 24 hour period of the 70th week of Daniel - the same day the 7th vial will be poured out that ends the week.
 
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