The Seed of Abraham

summerville said:

Really? The Palestinians are descended from Jewish farmers who didn't leave. They stay for nearly 2000 years to tend and repair the Roman terraces and the aqueducts.. They stayed and tended the 500 year old olive trees.

The Bible says NOT to move the boundary stones of the ancestors.

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The Palestinians are descendants from Egyp, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc.

The few Israelis that were left separated themselves from these people.

Charlie24 said:

But I want you to know that my anger is not directed toward you. I despise reformed theology, it's wrong and perverts the Word of God. But again that anger is not in any way directed toward your person.

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I see. The anger is about the perversion all us Calvinists believe, not at us.

Charlie24 said:

Josh, it's a difficult thing to have a conversation with you.

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Dozens of people with whom I trade posts from around the world say otherwise. I suggest scripture be obeyed, beginning with Mt. 7:5, asking yourself what it is in my posts that is difficult because if you stick to the topic and evidence claims made then we won't have any problems.

Charlie24 said:

I have met many Baptists that are of the Calvinist persuasion.....
No hope for me, I'm dead set against it.

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Charlie24 said:

The conversation should be on the subject matter not the individuals...

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I completely agree; the conversation should be on the subject matter and not the individuals. Baptists, Calvinists, and yourself should have been kept out of ithe discussion. Calvinism, not Calvinists. The moment you brought yourself into the discussion you made you fare game. Try not to do that if you don't want posters discussing your changes of subject matter.

Charlie24 said:

...especially telling another what they should and shouldn't do.

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Which is what you're now doing. If my post is re-read it will be noted I didn't tell anyone what to do or not do. I simply stated a given practice wouldn't be good for you.


And then I brought the discussion back to the op.

But there's no return to the subject matter. Evidence.

Charlie24 said:

I'm out and you're on ignore from here on out!

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Works for me. I don't find trading posts with those who post contradictory content very effective. Should have practiced what was posted and stuck to the subject matter. If that had happened we wouldn't have any problem.


Calvinism does not hold the church superior to the promises made to Israel (post #125) Reformed theology understands the Church is grafted into the already-existing tree of Israel and their promises are not disparate. Calvinism is not correctly understood. Appeals to consensus (atgumentum ad populum, #139) are fallacious. Millions around the world agree with the statement; their agreement doesn't make it correct. It's grounding in scripture make it correct. Hearing does not bring people to the truth. If post 134 is a reference to Romans 10 that passage tells us the Jews were given a spirit of stupor so they would not hear. Hearing does not cause salvation. Jesus himself often spiritualized Tanakh. Post 117 is wrong. The literal and the spiritual are not "two different worlds. The literal and the figurative are two different things. Post #114 is wrong. So is off-topically insinuating others don't have an unsound mind and false doctrine. When Jesus said no stone would be left atop another he was not literal, spiritual, or symbolic. He was hyperbolic. Post 102 is wrong.
The problem is self-espoused standards are not being practiced:

Charlie24 said:

We know that Jesus spoke in parables and spiritualized His communication, it's obvious. That's why scripture should be taken literally unless it becomes obvious it is not literal. It's not hard to do, but this spiritualization of scripture when there is no obvious reason is ridiculous.

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The reason is because the belief in literal reading prevents some people from reading as figurative that which seems literal but isn't. A stone left standing atop another isn't literal or symbolic and the idea it MUST be one or the other is the problem. It's called a false dichotomy.

The temple was literally destroyed. Only literalists expected no stone left standing atop another. Everyone else looked at the flattened temple and recognized it had literally been destroyed. Sound minds thinking rationally and examining scripture correctly understand this. It is those who bind themselves to a false dichotomy that don't get it.




In short, there's very little in your posts that bears any veracity scripturally, logically, or respectfully. I just happen to be a poster comfortable pointing out these things. Most of the posts are off-topic. This op is about "Abraham's seed," not Calvinists, hermeneutics, logic, or anything else and from the moment of self-report, "No hope for me, I'm dead set against it," it is valid to ask why you're here. I was not the first to point out the digressions but that poster's prior exhortation was ignored.

It is particularly odd because I am in complete agreement with your desire to know the purpose or intent of the op. I asked, just as you did. I asked the same question Dave L did, "Why are you here?" Why would a person who despises what he (incorrectly) imagines is perverse not state his reasons for being in this conversation? The only one playing games here is you, Charlie24. From post #2 on very, very little of what you posted has anything to do with Abraham's seed so you have no business telling anyone to stick to the subject matter.

Do please ignore my posts but do not imagine that will stop me from pointing out dross when I read it.

Charlie24 said:

All the theologians that I have read behind say that the sacrifices during the Millennium are in honor of Christ. A ceremony to remember the great sacrifice He made for mankind.

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Ezekiel's Sacrifices are not a remembrance or a memorial. Scripture demands they be efficacious. I understand that for you to reconcile Ezek 40-48 with your view, you MUST view them as memorial, but scripture is clear that they are not.

Ezekiel 40:39
In the porch of the gate were two tables on each side, on which to slaughter the burnt offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering.

Ezekiel 42:13
the priests who are near to the LORD shall eat the most holy things. There they shall lay the most holy things, the grain offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering;

Ezekiel 43:20
'You shall take some of its blood and put it on its four horns and on the four corners of the ledge and on the border round about; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it.

Ezekiel 43:21
'You shall also take the bull for the sin offering

Ezekiel 43:22
'On the second day you shall offer a male goat without blemish for a sin offering

Ezekiel 43:27
'When they have completed the days, it shall be that on the eighth day and onward, the priests shall offer your burnt offerings on the altar, and your peace offerings; AND I WILL ACCEPT YOU

Ezekiel 44:9
'Thus says the Lord GOD, "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary.

Ezekiel 44:10
"But the Levites who went far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the punishment for their iniquity. Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the house and ministering in the house; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people

Ezekiel 44:23
"Moreover, they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and the profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

Ezekiel 43:7
Son of man, this [stone temple] is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever.

Show me, Where does scripture teach that these will be "memorial" and "instructive" and not Proprietary?

Also How is Requiring Males to be Physically Circumcised "Memorial and instructive" about Jesus?

Are you saying Jesus will require males to be physically circumcised to "remind them" He forever removed the requirement to be physically Circumcised??

All these offerings are the propitiatory offerings of the Mosaic Law that Jesus came to fulfill forever. The teaching of a reinstitution of this blood sacrificial system is a rebuke against the blood of Jesus Christ, and a cause for anathema according to the apostles. A return to this system is a falling away from salvation, according to the apostles. A falling from the grace of Jesus Christ.

parousia70 said:

Ezekiel's Sacrifices are not a remembrance or a memorial. Scripture demands they be efficacious. I understand that for you to reconcile Ezek 40-48 with your view, you MUST view them as memorial, but scripture is clear that they are not.

Ezekiel 40:39
In the porch of the gate were two tables on each side, on which to slaughter the burnt offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering.

Ezekiel 42:13
the priests who are near to the LORD shall eat the most holy things. There they shall lay the most holy things, the grain offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering;

Ezekiel 43:20
'You shall take some of its blood and put it on its four horns and on the four corners of the ledge and on the border round about; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it.

Ezekiel 43:21
'You shall also take the bull for the sin offering

Ezekiel 43:22
'On the second day you shall offer a male goat without blemish for a sin offering

Ezekiel 43:27
'When they have completed the days, it shall be that on the eighth day and onward, the priests shall offer your burnt offerings on the altar, and your peace offerings; AND I WILL ACCEPT YOU

Ezekiel 44:9
'Thus says the Lord GOD, "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary.

Ezekiel 44:10
"But the Levites who went far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the punishment for their iniquity. Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the house and ministering in the house; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people

Ezekiel 44:23
"Moreover, they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and the profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

Ezekiel 43:7
Son of man, this [stone temple] is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever.

Show me, Where does scripture teach that these will be "memorial" and "instructive" and not Proprietary?

Also How is Requiring Males to be Physically Circumcised "Memorial and instructive" about Jesus?

Are you saying Jesus will require males to be physically circumcised to "remind them" He forever removed the requirement to be physically Circumcised??

All these offerings are the propitiatory offerings of the Mosaic Law that Jesus came to fulfill forever. The teaching of a reinstitution of this blood sacrificial system is a rebuke against the blood of Jesus Christ, and a cause for anathema according to the apostles. A return to this system is a falling away from salvation, according to the apostles. A falling from the grace of Jesus Christ.

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There is no need for scripture to prove it's a memorial of sorts.

Is not the Blood of Christ the only way to forgiveness of sins?

Does not the scripture say that the blood of animals cannot forgive sins?

Sounds like a memorial to Christ to me!

And everyone will take part whether they want to or not!

summerville said:

Galileans, Idumeans and Zealots trampled Jerusalem. They were called "savage beasts".. The killed Jews that wouldn't join them in fighting the Romans.. and they destroyed the food stores of the Jews.

“And this place, which is adored by the habitable world, and honored by such as only know it by report, as far as the ends of the earth, is trampled upon by these wild beasts born among ourselves” . So, according to this testimony, it was the Zealots who trampled Jerusalem, and they had a reputation for behaving like wild beasts.

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Yes, the Zealots were the ones that trampled Jerusalem and were like wild beasts, but the division wasn't between the House of Judah and the House of Israel. Acts 2 brings light to that.

mkgal1 said:

Yes, the Zealots were the ones that trampled Jerusalem and were like wild beasts, but the division wasn't between the House of Judah and the House of Israel. Acts 2 brings light to that.

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Show me.. When did they suddenly change?

Charlie24 said:

There is no need for scripture to prove it's a memorial of sorts.

Is not the Blood of Christ the only way to forgiveness of sins?

Does not the scripture say that the blood of animals cannot forgive sins?

Sounds like a memorial to Christ to me!

And everyone will take part whether they want to or not!

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So, again, just so I'm clear, you are saying that Jesus will REQUIRE all males to be Physically Circumcised to "remind them" that His sacrifice forever removed the Requirement to be Physically Circumcised.

Do I have that right?

Charlie24 said:

There is no need for scripture to prove it's a memorial of sorts.

Is not the Blood of Christ the only way to forgiveness of sins?

Does not the scripture say that the blood of animals cannot forgive sins?

Sounds like a memorial to Christ to me!

And everyone will take part whether they want to or not!

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Ok So You are spiritualizing the text to suit this view of them being a memorial then?

Your claim is the text does NOT mean what it says?

parousia70 said:

So, again, just so I'm clear, you are saying that Jesus will REQUIRE all males to be Physically Circumcised to "remind them" that His sacrifice forever removed the Requirement to be Physically Circumcised.

Do I have that right?

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Did I say that? Do you find that in scripture?

Thx.

parousia70 said:

Ok So You are spiritualizing the text to suit this view of them being a memorial then?

Your claim is the text does NOT mean what it says?

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There's nothing spiritual about this! It will literally take place.

But not for the forgiveness of sin, but to bring all the world under the acknowledgement of the great sacrifice Christ made for man.

You will be forced to accept or reject Christ through the feast of Tabernacles.

What does the scripture say will happen if any nation does not honor this feast?

They will receive no rain!

Charlie24 said:

There's nothing spiritual about this! It will literally take place.

But not for the forgiveness of sin, but to bring all the world under the acknowledgement of the great sacrifice Christ made for man.

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Your comment in Bold is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to the plain scripture.

How do you reconcile this?

The Explanation of "memorial Sacrifices" is not new to me, and really does not answer the fundamental problem for you, in that the sacrifices mentioned in Ezekiel 40-44 are the ones prescribed by Moses in the Mosaic Law. These are not "memorial sacrifices" by any stretch of the imagination. They are animal blood sacrifices for sin. Premillennialists (Cerinthians) are heading back to, *gasp*, animal blood sacrifices and circumcision of flesh (Ez 44:7,9). What a knock against the finished work of Christ. What a misunderstanding. You are fooling yourself about the temple sacrifices.. They are NOT Memorial, they are propitiatory and forever

Charlie24 said:

Did I say that? Do you find that in scripture?

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Yes you said it.

Why do you think Jesus will require males to be Circumcised when scripture testifies that His once for all sacrifice forever removed that requirement?

parousia70 said:

Yes you said it.

Why do you think Jesus will require males to be Circumcised when scripture testifies that His once for all sacrifice forever removed that requirement?

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Show me the post! I remember saying no such thing.

Charlie24 said:

Show me the post! I remember saying no such thing.

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You said these passage in Ezekiel are memorial in nature., which would include Ezekiel 44:9, would it not?

Charlie24 said:

There's nothing spiritual about this! It will literally take place.

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Replacing the everlasting Gospel and eternal Church of Israel with a future temple Judaism, complete with blood animal sacrifices and forced circumcision is the TRUE replacement theology of BACKWARD REDEMPTION.

A concept that, according to the apostles, is a rebuke against the Blood of Christ, a falling away from salvation.

Again, Ezekiel 40-44 are the very proprietary sacrifices of the Mosaic Law for the atonement of sin and acceptance by the Lord, and can not be "spiritualized away" into some sort of "memorial sacrifices" that "commemorate" Christ's once for all sacrifice on the Cross.

One can not claim literalism while spiritualizing away the meaning of the sacrifices and circumcision in Ezekiel 40-44

parousia70 said:

You said these passage in Ezekiel are memorial in nature., which would include Ezekiel 44:9, would it not?

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My Lord!

Who are the uncircumcised?

This verse is saying that only the circumcised (JEWS) will enter into "My sanctuary."

The uncircumcised here is referring to Gentiles.

Gentiles will have no part in service of the temple during the Millennium.

parousia70 said:

Your comment in Bold is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to the plain scripture.

How do you reconcile this?

The Explanation of "memorial Sacrifices" is not new to me, and really does not answer the fundamental problem for you, in that the sacrifices mentioned in Ezekiel 40-44 are the ones prescribed by Moses in the Mosaic Law. These are not "memorial sacrifices" by any stretch of the imagination. They are animal blood sacrifices for sin. Premillennialists (Cerinthians) are heading back to, *gasp*, animal blood sacrifices and circumcision of flesh (Ez 44:7,9). What a knock against the finished work of Christ. What a misunderstanding. You are fooling yourself about the temple sacrifices.. They are NOT Memorial, they are propitiatory and forever

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It is worth noting the temple of Ezekiel is 1) a vision (it is not literal), 2) has no roof, and 3) would extent a mile off the mountain on which Jerusalem sits if that's where it is built.

So we can expect animal sacrifices in a roofless temple that is cantilevered one mile off the temple mount, and we can expect God to orchestrate that in the lives of those denying His Son's sacrifice.

Literally.

Charlie24 said:

My Lord!

Who are the uncircumcised?

This verse is saying that only the circumcised (JEWS) will enter into "My sanctuary."

The uncircumcised here is referring to Gentiles.

Gentiles will have no part in service of the temple during the Millennium.

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Again, scripture teaches the opposite of your supposition.
Please see Hebrews 10 in its entirety.

Christ does not come to reverse this:
Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

How long do you believe "Forever" is?

....17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Your contention that there will once again in our future be sin offerings mandated is opposite of the teaching above TO THE JEWS, that says "never again, no more, forever"

How do you reconcile this?

parousia70 said:

Again, scripture teaches the opposite of your supposition.
Please see Hebrews 10 in its entirety.

Christ does not come to reverse this:
Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

How long do you believe "Forever" is?

....17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Your contention that there will once again in our future be sin offerings mandated is opposite of the teaching above TO THE JEWS, that says "never again, no more, forever"

How do you reconcile this?

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The only way to deny Ezekiel 40-48 is to spiritualize it, right.

All these minute details of the temple are a spiritual application and serve only a spiritual purpose.

That's reformed theology and is a lie!!!