I wonder about the literalism of the first five books of the OT

summerville · Mar 8, 2020

Bob Bridges said:
Seems to me you've got this backward. If you're trying to say that 600 years old in base 60 is about 70 in base ten, no; 600 in base 60 is 2160 in base 10. But I'm told that the method of writing numbers in ancient Hebrew wasn't done that way, so the translators (whom I think I can believe to know Hebrew better than I do) probably have it right.

I don't get it and it gives me a headache to try.

The number of factors distinguishes the base 60 system from its base 10 counterpart, which likely developed from people counting on both hands. The former system uses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, 30, and 60 for base 60, while the latter uses 1, 2, 5, and 10 for base 10.
Babylonian Mathematics and the Base 60 System - ThoughtCo
www.thoughtco.com/why-we-still-use-babylonian-mathematics-116679

redleghunter · Mar 8, 2020

summerville said:
The ancient counting system in Sumer was based on 60 so Noah was in reality about age 70.. but, don't ask me to explain it.. I don't understand it at all. As you move forward in time that system was dropped or replaced by a system based on 10.

Source?

summerville · Mar 8, 2020

redleghunter said:
Source?

Already posted.

BobRyan · Mar 8, 2020

Bob Bridges said:
"Rabbi Brian Zachary Mayer wrote '...To take [the Bible] literally would mean that I believe that every word, as it is written, was spoken by God. I cannot do that.' " I can; I do believe that every word in the Bible is God-breathed. But I don't agree that it has to mean every word is literally true. Some of the words are (so to speak) symbolically true. .

true that it has symbolism like the dragon in Rev 12 and the Lion in Daniel 7. No doubt.

But that does not mean its historic accounts in Genesis are not accurate or that its account of the virgin birth, resurrection of Christ, bodily ascension of Christ are not literal.

BobRyan · Mar 8, 2020

Alain Valdivia said:
I agree. Sacred Scripture is the word of the Holy Spirit and thus by nature is itself infallible. However, it was not intended to be a science book, but a book made for our salvation.

true - so then without first being a biology text book - it is still reliable in stating the historic fact of the incarnation of Christ, bodily resurrection of Christ, bodily ascension of Christ into heaven, seven-day creation week in legal code Ex 20:11 and historic account in Genesis 1-3

BobRyan · Mar 8, 2020

Akita Suggagaki said:
Moses did not write the Bible, what gave you that idea? Why would you even think he wrote any of it? .

I read the words of Jesus Christ and He claims Moses wrote it.
And the Word of God says Moses wrote it.

"Moses said" Mark 7:6-13

Luke 24:27, 44 (Link)
↑ Luke 24:44 (Link)
↑ Exodus 24:4 (Link)
↑ Joshua 8:32 (Link)

Deut 31
24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

1. Read the Bible
2. Believe the Bible

BobRyan · Mar 8, 2020

summerville said:
The Babylonians already had codified law before 1754 BC. See Code of Hammurabi.

People didn't live hundreds of years.. EVER.

The Bible says they did -- in Genesis 5-9... "you say" they did not.

Fine you have your opinion and the Word of God has it's own statement on the matter. We are all adults here we can choose who to believe.

BobRyan · Mar 8, 2020

jamesbond007 said:
I take what Moses wrote literally as he wasn't writing as a prophet. He started writing the Bible with the Ten Commandments and it explains why God killed everyone (descendants of Adam and Eve) and everything on Earth. If you look at Moses times, he was under persecution as the Babylonian empire arose and led to some key events in Biblical terms such as worshiping false gods. They were an advanced civilization already with great resources from their rivers and they had much gold and silver to trade with and to use as precious metals. I think many could accept the Ten Commandments like we do today, but would not be able to obey and follow it. It shows that we all are not sinless; I think that's what people in Moses' time got, too.

Moses reports on things that happened around 2500 years before his time. Would people be able to believe what he wrote? I would think they could go back a few hundred years with some accuracy, but anything over a thousand becomes difficult. I think they could believe what happened in regards to a global flood from that period of time before. There was a mythological story regarding a large flood as the Epic of Gilgamesh and Moses wrote something similar of Noah's flood in Genesis, but I think he explained much more in detail. I would think there were people who did not believe Moses about it during that time as we have people who dismiss it as myth and use the Epic of Gilgamesh as argument. Here are the differences between the two from a Christian pov -- The Flood of Noah and the Flood of Gilgamesh.

I had trouble with the people's longevity when first reading it. However, things were different in those times. People could live for hundreds of years -- http://amendez.com/NAES/Noahs_Ark_Articles_files/NAS The Scientific Evidence for Biblical Longevity.pdf. Moses states God shortened their lives to around 120 years after the flood.

What about Adam and Eve? What key learnings are from their sin? One is the sin they committed was thinking they were "like God." This is what Satan as the serpent was able to tempt them with. The other was that we all changed from what Adam and Eve were physically to flesh and blood creatures, even to this day. That we are all born of Adam's sin. One more big learning would be that God formed Adam out of dirt and gave him life through his breath. We find science backs it up today as the supernatural of life spirit exists next to the natural.

Good point.

redleghunter · Mar 8, 2020

JohnAshton said:
So you can't answer the question.

Please stop tap dancing.

It’s answered. Where the Bible is not a parable or poetry it is to be taken literally.

So let’s start with a literal event and go from there.

The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ...literal?

redleghunter · Mar 8, 2020

summerville said:
The Hebrews borrowed from the Babylonians .. Have you read ANY of the Code of Hammurabi? Its pretty good.

That’s a ridiculous point to make. Of course cultures learned and incorporated other languages. You won’t find even the ancient church theologians argue against that.

For some reason you think Moses robbed the Babylonians for the Law.

redleghunter · Mar 8, 2020

JohnAshton said:
Bob Bridges, you are trying to impose Hebrew numbering on that of Sumerian. You can't.

Age seventy is about right.

How do you know? Do you think the Hebrews with their established calendar could not count a year and true age?

redleghunter · Mar 8, 2020

BobRyan said:
true that it has symbolism like the dragon in Rev 12 and the Lion in Daniel 7. No doubt.

But that does not mean its historic accounts in Genesis are not accurate or that its account of the virgin birth, resurrection of Christ, bodily ascension of Christ are not literal.

Indeed. Yet I even ask some about the resurrection and they don’t want to answer the question.

Oseas · Mar 8, 2020

Thomas White said:
I would not go so far as to call them killers. They've just been taught to believe something. That is hard to break. However, they can definitely be stumbling blocks to the spread of the Gospel.

I understand you dear brother Thomas White, however if we analyze deeply the Word of God we see since ancient time and until today the evolution of the strategies of our Enemy, the Enemy of God's people, in to kill physicaly and spiritually the servants of the LORD. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:v.12 .

The PULPITS of the Churches are high places. The angels of the Churches preach their doctrines, right or wrong, on the pulpit of Churches, in the high places, it may occur there be doctrines of demons in their sermons to kill the souls. They are killers of souls, like the false prophets of the OT. JESUS explains so better this, as follow:
For better and consistent conclusion I quote Matthew 7:v.10-28. JESUS warned us saying:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Aleluiaaa!

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

May our LORD God bless us, and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen

redleghunter · Mar 8, 2020

BobRyan said:
I read the words of Jesus Christ and He claims Moses wrote it.
And the Word of God says Moses wrote it.

"Moses said" Mark 7:6-13

Luke 24:27, 44 (Link)

↑ Luke 24:44 (Link)

↑ Exodus 24:4 (Link)

↑ Joshua 8:32 (Link)

Deut 31
24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

1. Read the Bible
2. Believe the Bible

‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’” (Luke 16:31)

Oseas · Mar 8, 2020

pescador said:
So the Bible isn't true?

You are saying that.

No true are those which were not born again, were not born from God, but only born from the Devil, sons of Devil, like Cain.

The light shines in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not. God is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all. God said: Let there be light, and there was light.

If you say that you have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, you lie, you are a liar, and you do not the Truth. God is the Truth. The Word is God. So, if you walk in the light, as He is in the light, you have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

James 4:v.4-6 & 16- Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

16 - But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

Oseas · Mar 8, 2020

JohnAshton said:
Non sequitur.

Well said.

Oseas · Mar 8, 2020

pescador said:
No it isn't. You wrote, "I agree because the LITERAL interpreters of Scriptures are killers, killers of souls. That can only happen by distorting what the Bible says, making untrue.

Keep in mind that you are accusing other Christians of being killers. Why don't you talk to God about your accusation?

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1Tim.4:v.1-2

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2Tim.4:1-4

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. Revelation 9:v.20-21

summerville · Mar 9, 2020

BobRyan said:
The Bible says they did -- in Genesis 5-9... "you say" they did not.

Fine you have your opinion and the Word of God has it's own statement on the matter. We are all adults here we can choose who to believe.

Leviticus and Deuteronomy were written during and after the Babylonia exile 800 years after the death of Moses.

jamesbond007 · Mar 9, 2020

Akita Suggagaki said:
Moses did not write the Bible, what gave you that idea? Why would you even think he wrote any of it? He is even spoken of in the 3rd person. No one does that.

What is the Pentateuch?

God wrote it, and his autobiography was transcribed by Moses. Are you going to go against him, Moses, and the Jews, too?

summerville · Mar 9, 2020

jamesbond007 said:
What is the Pentateuch?

God wrote it, and his autobiography was transcribed by Moses. Are you going to go against him, Moses, and the Jews, too?

LOLOL.. He even wrote about his own death.. How cool is that?

I wonder about the literalism of the first five books of the OT

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