Can You Be a Christian and Deny the Trinity?

Saint Steven

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Testimony of the cross is the main armament in our spiritual warfare against Satan and his demonic horde. Rev12 makes that abundantly clear.
What a terrific post! Thank you.
Can you expand on this bit? (quoted above) What do you mean when you write, "Testimony of the cross"? I think I know, but I want your full perspective. Thanks.
 
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Francis Drake

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People need to understand that all the faithful believers of the Old Testament were born again, or more correctly, born from above. Noah was born from above, Abraham was born from above, etc.

The claim that nobody could be "born from above" till Jesus's death, or his resurrection, or maybe Pentecost, is unbiblical foolishness.

The initial teaching on being born from above was given during the Old Testament, to Nicodemus, an Old Testament Pharisee, around 3 years before Jesus died. It is foolish to imagine that Jesus would be instructing Nicodemus about something that wasn't possible for another 3 years.

John3v3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”
4Nicodemus says to Him, “How is a man able to be born, being old? Is he able to enter into the womb of his mother a second time, and to be born?”


5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless anyone be born of water and of the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. 6That having been born of the flesh is flesh, and that having been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not wonder that I said to you, ‘It is necessary for you all to be born from above.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know from where it comes and where it goes. Thus is everyone having been born of the Spirit.”

The above passage is spoken in the present tense, making it valid there and then, not just some distant future.

Clearly, knowing that Jesus the man, was also the Messiah who would die for them, was not a requirement to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Catholic history.
Not very specific. What part of my statement specifically have you found to be factually innacurate and worthy of sarcasm?
 
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Francis Drake

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What a terrific post! Thank you.
Can you expand on this bit? (quoted above) What do you mean when you write, "Testimony of the cross"? I think I know, but I want your full perspective. Thanks.

The word 'salvation' is used throughout the OT, and never once do we find it to mean "Heaven when you're dead".
Instead, the word salvation invariably refers to what I call "deliverance from Philistine, famine and plague."
So why do we imagine the parameters of that word suddenly change when Jesus uses it. After all, it was still the Old testament period when Jesus started his ministry, and his hearers were OT people used to Old Testament symbols, definitions, and imagery.

With that in mind, lets look at your question.
Rev12v10Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
This passage depicts a courtroom scenario.
Satan is the accuser, and we are the accused standing trial.
God is the judge.

Take note, we believers are being accused day and night before God. The myth that Satan can't appear anywhere that God is present is just that, a myth. This passage, plus the book of Job prove that fact.

Satan and his demons are always seeking legal justification to attack us, therefore he has a long list of our failures and shortcomings.
1Peter5v8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

How do we plead?
For me, I always play safe here and plead, "guilty as charged your honour!"
And by the way, in this court, there is no pleading the fifth amendment, the right to remain. You remain silent and the judge has no choice but to hand you over for punishment.

So, I'm guilty, but what next? The answer to how we deal with our accuser is in the above scripture.
v11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony,

Yes I am guilty of all sorts of sin and failure, but Jesus by his blood has already paid the price for everything I've done wrong.
However that massively piece of evidence is of no use unless it's presented forth and entered into the court record. That is what "the word of your testimony" refers to.

The word of your testimony has nothing to do with how many people you have led to the Lord, or healed, or how much you've given to the poor. It is your testimony to Jesus's shed blood alone that gets you off the hook.
And if you imagine you can somehow justify your way out of the accusations, you are really saying you can get by without Jesus's sacrifice.

There's a whole lot more to this in both OT and NT, but this will do for now.
 
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Charlie24

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I am going to be very contentious here, so please listen carefully to the words.

Scripture states quite categorically, that until a man is already born again, he will never understand the message of Christ and the cross!
This biblical truth is completely bulldozed out of the way by most churches, most evangelist groups and most Christians. They don't want to believe it, because it removes the 'raison d'etre' of almost all they believe and do.

Read the following verse very slowly, word by word, and then contemplate what it tells us!
1Cor1v14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
In the Greek, "natural" is psychicos, meaning the mental processes or soul based thinking.
Thus it is utterly impossible for the human mind alone, the psyche, to receive the things of God. To understand the things of God, we first need our spirit to be made alive to God by His Spirit.

That is why until a man gets "born again" the cross will always remain a nonsense to him.

Paul expounds even further.-
1Cor1v18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
"Those who are perishing" is a reference to men who are at present spiritually dead. Thus before a man can understand the cross, he must already have the Spirit of God inside him to make sense of it.
ie. New birth comes first, then the cross.
So how does a man get born again if not by knowing Christ on the cross?
Again Paul gives the answer.-
Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
To suppress the truth, they must already know that truth!

19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
God has revealed himself to all mankind, sufficient for them to surrender.

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
From creation onwards, the invisible eternal God has been known and understood in every heart. There will be no excuses before the final Judgement seat of Christ.

The moment a man responds to God in his heart, he receives new birth by the Spirit of God. No doctrine, no theology, just you and the Holy Spirit, the revealer of God.
The choice of response is always man's, but like Phaoroah, the longer we reject what we know to be true, the harder our heart becomes.

How dare you say I wasn't saved. I knew the Lord, I heard him speak to me . I heard him say that nobody was "good" in their own right, but He had made a way for us. He also said that he lived in my heart not a building. All of which I learned was true when I read the bible many years later.

In the Greek original, Jesus did not say "I am he", but simply "I am", one of the names of God.
If anyone doesn't believe in the "I am" creator God, they will certainly die in their sins.

Even though the Jews at that time didn't understand who Jesus was, most already believed in the "I am" .

Everything that God did to save mankind is predicated on Jesus's death on the cross. But our new birth is not down to knowledge of that sacrifice. However, if we want to walk in spiritual freedom in this life, understanding the message of the cross is essential for those who are in the process of salvation, which Paul makes clear includes himself.

Testimony of the cross is the main armament in our spiritual warfare against Satan and his demonic horde. Rev12 makes that abundantly clear.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
 
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Saint Steven

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John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
On what basis did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he must be born again?
Jesus had not yet gone to the cross. His blood had not been shed.
How then could Nicodemus be born of the Spirit?
 
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Charlie24

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On what basis did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he must be born again?
Jesus had not yet gone to the cross. His blood had not been shed.
How then could Nicodemus be born of the Spirit?

The same way all OT saints were saved, belief in the coming Messiah through sacrifice of an animal.

The sacrifices go back to Cain and Abel.
 
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Saint Steven

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The same way all OT saints were saved, belief in the coming Messiah through sacrifice of an animal.

The sacrifices go back to Cain and Abel.
Seems like an unfounded claim.
 
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Charlie24

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Seems like an unfounded claim.

Just give it some time to sink in.

Take Naaman for example, he was a Syrian. How was he saved?

He heard of the prophet Elisha and went to be healed of leprosy. He finally dipped 7 times in the Jordan and was healed. He said, now I know there is but one God in all the earth, the God of Israel. But that didn't save him!

If you read in 2Kings 5:17, Naaman said that he would never offer burnt offerings nor sacrifices to other Gods, but only to the Lord. That is when he was saved. He acknowledged the coming Christ.
 
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Saint Steven

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Just give it some time to sink in.

Take Naaman for example, he was a Syrian. How was he saved?

He heard of the prophet Elisha and went to be healed of leprosy. He finally dipped 7 times in the Jordan and was healed. He said, now I know there is but one God in all the earth, the God of Israel. But that didn't save him!

If you read in 2Kings 5:17, Naaman said that he would never offer burnt offerings nor sacrifices to other Gods, but only to the Lord. That is when he was saved. He acknowledged the coming Christ.
The sacrificial system didn't seem to help Israel. Weren't they looking forward to a Messiah?

Luke 4:25-28
I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”
28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this.
 
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Charlie24

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The sacrificial system didn't seem to help Israel. Weren't they looking forward to a Messiah?

Luke 4:25-28
I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”
28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this.

It didn't help most because of unbelief. Unbelief in what?

Unbelief in God in general. When Israel would be rescued by God they would serve Him and offer the sacrifices where their salvation was found.

Then they would always go into a season of harlotry (spiritual whoredom) when they would offer sacrifices to other gods.

Over and over again Israel played the harlot. But there was always a remnant of believers.
 
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Francis Drake

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John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Absolutely true. Jesus is, was, and always will be, the saviour of the whole earth. All who came to the Father, did so by Jesus even though they didn't know it. It was through his sacrifice that all the OT believers had access to God.

Jesus is the God of creation. Jesus is "God the Rock" worshiped all through the OT. Jesus is the one who walked with Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Joshua.

Matt12v32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.…
 
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Francis Drake

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The same way all OT saints were saved, belief in the coming Messiah through sacrifice of an animal.

The sacrifices go back to Cain and Abel.
That's what today's Christians always say, but it's utterly illogical nonsense. Just stuff that fool teachers spout.

You'd have to be a real theological detective to find the passages in the Law and Prophets relating to a coming Messiah, especially before the scriptures were written down.
Even those who knew about the messiah, none understood that he was coming to die for them, as we see with the disciples of Jesus who utterly rejected the notion.

But what's the use of believing in a distant future Messiah when your land is being invaded by Syria, or there's been a famine? You need a God who can save and deliver right now, not 4000 years in the future!

No, the OT saints believed in the God of creation, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. They believed in the God who delivered them from Egypt, they believed in the one who healed their diseases.

Salvation in the OT was not "Heaven when you're dead". When they humbled themselves before him, their God delivered them from "Philistine Famine and Plague", which was the true meaning of salvation, till Christian leaders twisted it.
 
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Charlie24

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Absolutely true. Jesus is, was, and always will be, the saviour of the whole earth. All who came to the Father, did so by Jesus even though they didn't know it. It was through his sacrifice that all the OT believers had access to God.

Jesus is the God of creation. Jesus is "God the Rock" worshiped all through the OT. Jesus is the one who walked with Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Joshua.

Matt12v32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.…
That's what today's Christians always say, but it's utterly illogical nonsense. Just stuff that fool teachers spout.

You'd have to be a real theological detective to find the passages in the Law and Prophets relating to a coming Messiah, especially before the scriptures were written down.
Even those who knew about the messiah, none understood that he was coming to die for them, as we see with the disciples of Jesus who utterly rejected the notion.

But what's the use of believing in a distant future Messiah when your land is being invaded by Syria, or there's been a famine? You need a God who can save and deliver right now, not 4000 years in the future!

No, the OT saints believed in the God of creation, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. They believed in the God who delivered them from Egypt, they believed in the one who healed their diseases.

Salvation in the OT was not "Heaven when you're dead". When they humbled themselves before him, their God delivered them from "Philistine Famine and Plague", which was the true meaning of salvation, till Christian leaders twisted it.

And this is coming from someone who was saved and didn't know anything about Jesus or the Gospel.

You didn't come to salvation through Jesus, so you came another way.

How is that, when Jesus said He was the only way?
 
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Saint Steven

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It didn't help most because of unbelief. Unbelief in what?

Unbelief in God in general. When Israel would be rescued by God they would serve Him and offer the sacrifices where their salvation was found.

Then they would always go into a season of harlotry (spiritual whoredom) when they would offer sacrifices to other gods.

Over and over again Israel played the harlot. But there was always a remnant of believers.
What do you make of this?

Hebrews 10:11
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
 
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Charlie24

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What do you make of this?

Hebrews 10:11
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

The contrast is that the blood from the sacrifice of animals only covers sin, but the Blood of Christ takes away sin.

The sacrifices of animals blood only covered sin until the sacrifice of Christ that took away sin altogether, and for all time.
 
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Saint Steven

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The sacrifices of animals blood only covered sin until the sacrifice of Christ that took away sin altogether, and for all time.
No need for a forever burning hell then. Sweet.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
 
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Francis Drake

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The sacrificial system didn't seem to help Israel.
That's not entirely true Steve, the sacrificial system was incredibly powerful in both national and personal lives. I just wish Christians today understood the power in those sacrifices. They might better understand what Jesus did.

As per my other post on overcoming by the blood of the lamb (ie. Jesus's blood), in the OT, animal blood was just as powerful because it represented Jesus's blood.

This is one of many stories in the OT.-
A deadly plague running through the camp was halted in its tracks by using the blood sacrifice. (The fire or coals below, taken from the altar had been sprinkled with blood as per usual)
Num16v46So Moses said to Aaron, “Take a censer and put fire in it from the altar, put incense on it, and take it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them; for wrath has gone out from the Lord. The plague has begun.” 47Then Aaron took it as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the assembly; and already the plague had begun among the people. So he put in the incense and made atonement for the people. 48And he stood between the dead and the living; so the plague was stopped. 49Now those who died in the plague were fourteen thousand seven hundred, besides those who died in the Korah incident. 50So Aaron returned to Moses at the door of the tabernacle of meeting, for the plague had stopped.

This scripture is badly misunderstood, leading to entirely wrong conclusions.
Heb19v4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Of course it wasn't animal blood that took their sin away, but what that blood represented, Jesus, did take it away.
The same can be said about the bread and wine of communion, they don't take away sins either, but what they represent does take sin away.

But of course the best example of the power in those blood sacrifices is the Passover itself. Not only did the blood testimony deliver the Israelites from certain death, but it saved the lives of sensible Egyptians who came to Goshen to hide.
They became the mixed multitude who departed Egypt with Israel.
Weren't they looking forward to a Messiah?
But Steve, isn't "looking forward to the Messiah" the same as irritating modern Christians who are just "looking forward to their Messiah", the Second Coming of Jesus?

When people are in need, and someone piously says, 'don't worry Jesus is coming soon', its an abdication from reality. Jesus has been coming soon since Paul's letters were being written.

But do not doubt me for a moment, I know He is coming, but I want to know his salvation in my circumstances today, not decades after I'm dead.
 
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Francis Drake

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The contrast is that the blood from the sacrifice of animals only covers sin, but the Blood of Christ takes away sin.

The sacrifices of animals blood only covered sin until the sacrifice of Christ that took away sin altogether, and for all time.
The sins of OT believers were forgiven just as completely as ours are, in fact, according to Ps103, David's sins are removed as far as the heavens are high above the earth, and as far as the east is from the west.
ie, David and his sins are travelling infinitely away in opposite directions.

Ps103.
A Psalm of David.
1Bless the Lord, O my soul;
And all that is within me, bless His holy name!
2Bless the Lord, O my soul,
And forget not all His benefits:
3Who forgives all your iniquities,
Who heals all your diseases,
4Who redeems your life from destruction,
Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies,
5Who satisfies your mouth with good things,
So that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.


6The Lord executes righteousness
And justice for all who are oppressed.
7He made known His ways to Moses,
His acts to the children of Israel.
8The Lord is merciful and gracious,
Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
9He will not always strive with us,
Nor will He keep His anger forever.
10He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
Nor punished us according to our iniquities.


11For as the heavens are high above the earth,
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
12As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

13As a father pities his children,
So the Lord pities those who fear Him.
14For He knows our frame;
He remembers that we are dust.


15As for man, his days are like grass;
As a flower of the field, so he flourishes.
16For the wind passes over it, and it is gone,
And its place remembers it no more.
17But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting
On those who fear Him,
And His righteousness to children’s children,
18To such as keep His covenant,
And to those who remember His commandments to do them.


19The Lord has established His throne in heaven,
And His kingdom rules over all.


20Bless the Lord, you His angels,
Who excel in strength, who do His word,
Heeding the voice of His word.
21Bless the Lord, all you His hosts,
You ministers of His, who do His pleasure.
22Bless the Lord, all His works,
In all places of His dominion.


Bless the Lord, O my soul!

If only Christians had as good an understanding of God's goodness, mercy and complete forgiveness as David did.
 
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Francis Drake

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And this is coming from someone who was saved and didn't know anything about Jesus or the Gospel.

You didn't come to salvation through Jesus, so you came another way.

How is that, when Jesus said He was the only way?
Obviously I came through Jesus, as does every believer since Adam, despite the majority not having a clue.
The God I first met alone in my bedroom as a child was Jesus, although I had no clue of his name.

But obviously you are not reading my posts, otherwise you wouldn't ask such questions. Go read post No200, but slowly and carefully this time. You'd see it answers these questions.
 
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