How many times can one be regenerated?

FreeGrace2 said:

No kidding!

Please research the word 'earnest' and you'll see that it MEANS a guarantee. And why did most of the Greek scholars translate the word as "guarantee"? Were they just making up stuff as they went?

I know what it means.

Good night to you.

I never asked for specific words, as you are doing here. I ask for clear and plain language that SAYS what you keep claiming.

As to "no matter what", why don't you accept John 10:28? Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.

If there were some kind of "matter what", where is it? It isn't there.

The plain meaning of v.28 is that on the basis of being given the gift of eternal life, the believer shall NEVER perish. It is that simple.

Click to expand...

The word guarantee did not exist prior to 1600's.
The word that was used is earnest.
If you check the YLT, or any early translation, you will find the word earnest....
this is known today as a down payment.
A down payment is only a guarantee when eternal security, which is not biblical, is accepted as doctrine from those that cannot accept what the N.T. teaches.

A down payment is made....
and the fruit of it will be realized at the end of a period...
IF the agreement to the contract is kept and all payments are made.

We can be guaranteed our salvation, in the end, IF we remain in the safe arms of Christ. If we leave Him...we are not longer guaranteed salvation.

IOW, God will always keep HIS word...verse 13
but can we keep ours? verse 12

2 Timothy 2:12-13
12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.


As Paul said:
Philippians 3:12
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Romans 13:11
11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.


As to the "no matter what"...
You have stated that even if a person stops believing and leaves the faith...he will still be saved.

This is not what scripture teaches.

As promised...here are verses that state that we must hold on to our faith...
not fall away....many "IF's"....and CONTINUES, etc.

And some other words to pay attention to when reading the N.T.
IF
HOLD FAST
FALL AWAY
FORSAKE
DENY
CONTINUE IN THE WORD
ENDURE TO THE END
TURN FROM
ABIDE IN
NOT BE WEARY
CUT OFF
LOST
FOUND


The following verses should be sufficient for the wise to take heed:

******************************************************
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindnessRomans 11:22 to you,provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge(epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had anEPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ,again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn backfrom the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ –CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSEtheir salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a deaf, dumb andblind person . . .

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

.1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS whomay or may NOT make it into Heaven.

Bottom line: Just because a drowning person is saved by a passing boat - does NOT mean that they don't have the choice to jump off the boat.


part 1 of 2

@FreeGrace2

part 2 of 2


What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?
James 2:14


So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
James 2:17


Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.
James 2:21-24


Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road. Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.
James 2:25-26


Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me. “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come. “A tree is identified by its fruit. If a tree is good, its fruit will be good. If a tree is bad, its fruit will be bad. You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say. A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.
Matthew 12:30-37


Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.
Matthew 7:15-20


Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.
Matthew 7:24-27


I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.
John 15:1-6


When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.
Matthew 3:10


Let them be blotted out of the book of life, And not be written with the righteous.
Psalms 69:28


I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15


Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
Revelation 21:27


For the Kingdom of God is not just a lot of talk; it is living by God’s power.
1 Corinthians 4:20


I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that will produce the proper fruit.
Matthew 21:43


But Jesus told him, “Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God.
Luke 9:62


Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.
Ephesians 5:3-6


But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.
Matthew 25:31-46


Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a fishing net that was thrown into the water and caught fish of every kind. When the net was full, they dragged it up onto the shore, sat down, and sorted the good fish into crates, but threw the bad ones away. That is the way it will be at the end of the world. The angels will come and separate the wicked people from the righteous, throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:47-50


Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!
Matthew 13:37-43


Here is another story Jesus told: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer who planted good seed in his field. But that night as the workers slept, his enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat, then slipped away. When the crop began to grow and produce grain, the weeds also grew. “The farmer’s workers went to him and said, ‘Sir, the field where you planted that good seed is full of weeds! Where did they come from?’ “An enemy has done this!’ the farmer exclaimed. “‘Should we pull out the weeds?’ they asked. “No,’ he replied, ‘you’ll uproot the wheat if you do. Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn.
Matthew 13:24-30


A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:45-51


All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:7-8


Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.


Matthew 10:22b
…he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:10-13
At that time many will turn away from the faith…but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Luke 8:13
They believe for a while but in the time of testing they will fall away.

Luke 13:24
Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.

Luke 21:19
By standing firm you will gain life.

John 8:31b
If you remain in my word you are truly my disciples.

John 15:2a
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit. . .

John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown in the fire and burned.

Romans 8:29-30

Romans 11:21-22
For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Romans 13:11b

1 Corinthians 1:18

1 Corinthians 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall.

1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Galatians 4:19

Colossians 1:22-23
But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death, to present you holy in his sight, without blemish, free from accusation if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel…

1 Timothy 1:19
…holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these [instructions] and so have shipwrecked their faith.

1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits.

Hebrews 3:6b
And we are [God’s] house if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the confidence we had at first.

Hebrews 4:11
Let us therefore make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Hebrews 6:4-12
…we want each of you to show that same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure…

Hebrews 10:26-27

Hebrews 10:35-39
So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised…we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

James 5:19
My brothers if one of you should wander from the truth…

1 Peter 1:3-5
In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade – kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9

1 Peter 2:2

2 Peter 2:20-21
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning…

2 Peter 3:17-18
Therefore dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our lord and Saviour Jesus Christ…

2 John 8
Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. (This is probably about rewards and not salvation.)

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes…I will never blot out his name from the book of life…


*******************************************************

FreeGrace2 said:

It means a whole lot more than that. I got this straight from biblehub.com:

HELPS Word-studies
728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).

This is why the common translation of arrabon is "guarantees".

iow, when God places His Holy Spirit in the believer at the moment of faith in Christ, that is a mark or seal on the believer as God's possession, and this "down payment" GUARANTEES THE BALANCE. When does this occur? The day of redemption, just as v.14 SAYS.


Yes, it does. Your argument is based on your own emotions and opinions, but not the Word of God.



Again, from biblehub.com-

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5219 hypakoúō (from 5259 /hypó, "under" and 191 /akoúō, "hear") – properly, to obey what is heard (literally, "under hearing"). See 5218(hypakoē).

5219 /hypakoúō ("obey") is acting under the authority of the one speaking, i.e. really listening to the one giving the charge (order). 5219 /hypakoúō ("to hearken, obey") suggests attentively listening, i.e. fully compliant (responsive).

[5219 (hypakoúō) is an "intensification" of the simple verb "to listen" (191/akoúō, "hear").]

The point of this word is to believe what is heard. You have to ignore ALL the many verses about believing for eternal life/salvation in order to keep holding on to Heb 5:9 as some kind of salvation by works.


I've been quoting from bible hub.com which uses the actual Greek word.

In fact, it is you who has been redefining words and passages in ordef to fit into your own opinions and theology.

Click to expand...

A down payment only "guarantees" the outcome if the contract is kept.
If you read my post with all those warnings, you'll see that there are conditions to be kept in order to satisfy our contract with God.

The New Contract or New Covenant is a Covenant that has a rule:
One must be IN IT in order to receive its full benefits at the end of our life...which is eternity with God.

God does NOT guarantee anything to persons that do not make their payments and STAY IN THE COVENANT until the end of their life.
Jesus said this and so did all of the N.T. writers.

As to John 10:28
John 10:27 states TO WHOM eternal life is given.
TO THOSE THAT HEAR THE VOICE OF THEIR SHEPHERD...
JESUS.

Do those that have left the faith hear the voice of the shepherd?
NO.
Because it was THEIR CHOICE to leave the salvation of Christ.

Only those IN CHRIST will be saved.

Is John 10:28 the best you can do?

GodsGrace101 said:

The word guarantee did not exist prior to 1600's.

Click to expand...

Oh, please stop this. The Greek scholars used that word to define a Greek word that was used in the 1st Century. But nice try.

The word that was used is earnest.

Click to expand...

OK, one more time with the "earnest" word.

Englishman's Concordance
ἀρραβὼν (arrabōn) — 1 Occurrence
Ephesians 1:14 N-NMS
GRK: ὅ ἐστιν ἀρραβὼν τῆς κληρονομίας
NAS: who is given as a pledge of our inheritance,
KJV: is the earnest of our
INT: who is [the] guarantee of the inheritance

Scholars don't use current for their times definitions when translating Greek words used in the 1st Century.

If you have proof that they do, then please share your evidence.

If you check the YLT, or any early translation, you will find the word earnest....

Click to expand...

See above for scholarly evidence.

this is known today as a down payment.

Click to expand...

OK, let's go with this.

A down payment is only a guarantee when eternal security, which is not biblical, is accepted as doctrine from those that cannot accept what the N.T. teaches.

Click to expand...

Huh? Where do you get your ideas from? This doesn't make any sense.

A down payment is made....
and the fruit of it will be realized at the end of a period...
IF the agreement to the contract is kept and all payments are made.

Click to expand...

But it is clear that you haven't carefully read the "contract" in Eph 1:13,14.

The sealing ministry of the Spirit is the "mark" that identifies a possession of God (v.14). And the verse very plainly SAYS that those so marked are guaranteed an inheritance for the day of redemption for God's possession.

The promise is from God. Are you prepared to argue that God might renege on His promise? Becausea that's where the promise comes from. It's on Him, not us.

And you CANNOT find ANY verse in Scripture that says that man must meet any requirements for salvation, other than faith in Christ.

We can be guaranteed our salvation, in the end, IF we remain in the safe arms of Christ. If we leave Him...we are not longer guaranteed salvation.

Click to expand...

You have no evidence at all for this.

[QUOT]IOW, God will always keep HIS word...verse 13
but can we keep ours? verse 12[/QUOTE]
v.12 says nothing about humans having to "keep our word" for anything.

2 Timothy 2:12-13
12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Click to expand...

v.12 is a promise of reward for faithful believers, who endure. And a warning that believers who aren't faithful and don't endure (deny Him) will be denied the reward of reigning with Him.

v.13 proves eternal security because all believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, God cannot deny believers entrance into heaven because of that.

As Paul said:
Philippians 3:12
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Click to expand...

Paul was admitting at that time that he hadn't attained spiritual maturity.

Romans 13:11
11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed

Click to expand...

"salvation is nearer" is a reference to eternity, obviously.

As to the "no matter what"...
You have stated that even if a person stops believing and leaves the faith...he will still be saved.

Click to expand...

Where did Jesus include any exclusions in John 10:28?

This is not what scripture teaches.

Click to expand...

Just read John 10:28 and say that with a straight face.

As promised...here are verses that state that we must hold on to our faith...
not fall away....many "IF's"....and CONTINUES, etc.

Click to expand...

Yes, yes, yes. All believers are told to continue in the faith. But NO verse says it is maintain salvation. I keep asking and Arminians keep failing to prove their case from Scripture.

I'm not going to address all of your verses. Your entire perspective is twisted toward losing salvation even though you have NO such verses.

And since John 10:28 hasn't convinced you, I don't think anything will.

FreeGrace2 said:

Oh, please stop this. The Greek scholars used that word to define a Greek word that was used in the 1st Century. But nice try.


OK, one more time with the "earnest" word.

Englishman's Concordance
ἀρραβὼν (arrabōn) — 1 Occurrence
Ephesians 1:14 N-NMS
GRK: ὅ ἐστιν ἀρραβὼν τῆς κληρονομίας
NAS: who is given as a pledge of our inheritance,
KJV: is the earnest of our
INT: who is [the] guarantee of the inheritance

Scholars don't use current for their times definitions when translating Greek words used in the 1st Century.

If you have proof that they do, then please share your evidence.


See above for scholarly evidence.


OK, let's go with this.


Huh? Where do you get your ideas from? This doesn't make any sense.


But it is clear that you haven't carefully read the "contract" in Eph 1:13,14.

The sealing ministry of the Spirit is the "mark" that identifies a possession of God (v.14). And the verse very plainly SAYS that those so marked are guaranteed an inheritance for the day of redemption for God's possession.

The promise is from God. Are you prepared to argue that God might renege on His promise? Becausea that's where the promise comes from. It's on Him, not us.

And you CANNOT find ANY verse in Scripture that says that man must meet any requirements for salvation, other than faith in Christ.

Click to expand...

Of course.
Except that some lose their faith in Christ.
Isn't this what you're disagreeing with?

IOW, God will always keep HIS word...verse 13
but can we keep ours? verse 12
v.12 says nothing about humans having to "keep our word" for anything.


v.12 is a promise of reward for faithful believers, who endure. And a warning that believers who aren't faithful and don't endure (deny Him) will be denied the reward of reigning with Him.

v.13 proves eternal security because all believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, God cannot deny believers entrance into heaven because of that.


Paul was admitting at that time that he hadn't attained spiritual maturity.

Click to expand...

Where does it speak of spiritual maturity?
Forget Greek...we need English lessons here.
Please read the N.T. again and do not put your own words into what you are reading. As you know, this is eisegesis and is not acceptable.

"salvation is nearer" is a reference to eternity, obviously.


Where did Jesus include any exclusions in John 10:28?


Just read John 10:28 and say that with a straight face.


Yes, yes, yes. All believers are told to continue in the faith. But NO verse says it is maintain salvation. I keep asking and Arminians keep failing to prove their case from Scripture.

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For what SILLY REASON do you suppose Paul wrote all these words?
He wrote them to safeguard us and so we could understand that we are to continue believing.

I'm not going to address all of your verses. Your entire perspective is twisted toward losing salvation even though you have NO such verses.

And since John 10:28 hasn't convinced you, I don't think anything will.

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Try putting a down payment on a house as a guarantee of payments for 25 years.

Then stop making payments after a few years.
See what happens.

John 10:28...sure, because you've nothing else.

As to the rest....
Sure.
1. They were never saved to begin with.
2. What is aimed for is a PRIZE...not heaven.

Unfortunately, the above are not true,,,and not matter how many times you make these incorrect statements they will still NOT BE TRUE.

So....how about making a nice long list of verses that show we can never lose our faith...never depart from it...and how we will always be saved EVEN IF WE live a life of sin, even if we depart from Jesus, even if we fall away from the faith.

I'll be waiting.
'Night.

FreeGrace2 said:

v.12 is a promise of reward for faithful believers, who endure. And a warning that believers who aren't faithful and don't endure (deny Him) will be denied the reward of reigning with Him.

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What does reigning with Him mean?
One has to be in heaven with God in order to reign with Him.
The unfaithful are not going to heaven.
Please explain.

And since John 10:28 hasn't convinced you, I don't think anything will.

Click to expand...

Actually, I agree totally with John 10:28.
Those who HEAR (present tense) the voice of the Good Shepherd....
do have eternal life.

This verse does not help your cause and it seems to be the only one you quote.

FreeGrace2 said:

OK, one more time with the "earnest" word.

Englishman's Concordance
ἀρραβὼν (arrabōn) — 1 Occurrence
Ephesians 1:14 N-NMS
GRK: ὅ ἐστιν ἀρραβὼν τῆς κληρονομίας
NAS: who is given as a pledge of our inheritance,
KJV: is the earnest of our
INT: who is [the] guarantee of the inheritance

Scholars don't use current for their times definitions when translating Greek words used in the 1st Century.

If you have proof that they do, then please share your evidence.

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What do we inherit?

GodsGrace101 said:

Of course.
Except that some lose their faith in Christ.
Isn't this what you're disagreeing with?

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No, I have never disagreed with this fact. The Bible plainly states this possibility.

Jesus spoke of this in His parable of the soils. #2, to be exact.

Where does it speak of spiritual maturity?

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Phil 3:12 - Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Or did you think Paul was referring to salvation, that he hadn't attained salvation yet??

Forget Greek...we need English lessons here.[]/QUOTE]
Now, that's a problem. It's the original we need to know and understand.

Please read the N.T. again and do not put your own words into what you are reading. As you know, this is eisegesis and is not acceptable.

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Anyone can charge "eisegesis". Can you exegete John 10:28 without eisegesis?

For what SILLY REASON do you suppose Paul wrote all these words?[/QUTOE]
Paul NEVER had any silly reasons to write anything. I have no idea what you are even talking about.

He wrote them to safeguard us and so we could understand that we are to continue believing.

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I've never suggested that believers shouldn't "continue believing". Of course they should. Our difference is that once a person has put their trust alone in Christ alone, they shall never perish. Because Jesus said so in John 10:28. But you have disagreed with that.

Try putting a down payment on a house as a guarantee of payments for 25 years.

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OK, once again, I'm NOT God, so don't put God on the same level as fallen humanity.

When God puts down an earnest (down payment), He always follows through.

What you need to prove from Eph 1:13,14 is that there is some kind of "contract" on the believer's side that shows that the contract can be killed by any kind of certain behaviors, etc. And that would be impossible to prove. But be my guest.

Then stop making payments after a few years.
See what happens.

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Totally irrelevant since God never would do that.

John 10:28...sure, because you've nothing else.

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Sure, dismiss the verse that you cannot refute. Oh, and be sure that I have a lot more. But the fact is, Jn 10:28 is the SINGLE MOST CLEAR STATEMENT on eternal security in the Bible. The verse that cannot be refuted. Unfortunately, Arminians force an unbelievable twisted translation of that verse, in order to avoid facing the reality of eternal security.

Unfortunately, the above are not true,,,and not matter how many times you make these incorrect statements they will still NOT BE TRUE.

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Easy claim to make. What's a bit more difficult is to prove your own claim.

So....how about making a nice long list of verses that show we can never lose our faith...never depart from it...and how we will always be saved EVEN IF WE live a life of sin, even if we depart from Jesus, even if we fall away from the faith.

Click to expand...

No one can create such a list, since the Bible is very clear that one CAN lose their faith.

Your error is thinking that losing faith is equivalent to losing salvation.

Consider this: if that were true, then John 10:28 would HAVE HAD TO SAY THIS:

I give them eternal life, AND AS LONG AS OR IF they continue to believe, they shall never perish.

I assume you are able to distinguish conditional clauses and phrases. What I have just puth forth includes such a conditional clause, that would back up your claim.

Yet, Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life. That's the WHOLE POINT of the verse. NONE.

Once given eternal life, there will be no perishing. OGELTWBNP.

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FreeGrace2 said: ↑
v.12 is a promise of reward for faithful believers, who endure. And a warning that believers who aren't faithful and don't endure (deny Him) will be denied the reward of reigning with Him.

GodsGrace101 said:

What does reigning with Him mean?
One has to be in heaven with God in order to reign with Him.

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To "reign with Him" is to be a part of ruling in His kingdom. What else could that mean? And the alternative is to be denied reigning with Him. I wonder why you don't see that as a reward for faithfulness (enduring)??

As to your second comment, just entrance into heaven doesn't mean reigning with Him. Why would you think that?

Aren't you aware that believers can enter heaven but not reign with Him? That idea only occurs to people who don't understand or accept the teaching about reward for faithfulness. It seems many assume heaven itself is the reward spoken of in Scripture.

But, by mere definition, a reward is EARNED. That alone refutes such a bogus idea.

Grace removes the need to earn salvation. In fact, we CAN'T earn it. We are saved by grace. Did you know the Bible actually says that? Eph 2:8

The unfaithful are not going to heaven.
Please explain.

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Sure. Your statement is in error. The unbelievers are not going to heaven. And by that, I mean those who NEVER believed. And this is supported by Scripture.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

For clarity, the words "have not believed" doesn't mean "used to believe but quit". No. It means those who NEVER believed. That's who will be condemned.

Actually, I agree totally with John 10:28.

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I don't think so.

Those who HEAR (present tense) the voice of the Good Shepherd....
do have eternal life.

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That's not what v.27 and v.28 say at all. So you don't "totally agree" with the verse.

You have admitted that salvation be lost, yet Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. With NO conditions attached to recipients.

And we know WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life, don't we. Because Jesus taught in John 5:24 and 6:47 that those who believe possess eternal life.

So, from the MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life. And John 10:28 applies.

But you DON'T agree with that.

This verse does not help your cause and it seems to be the only one you quote.

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I quote the single most clear verse. I certainly can't help you understand what you don't, or won't.

But what is clear is there are NO conditions in either v.27 or v.28. So why do you insist on trying to force any conditions when there aren't any??

I believe your motivaton is eisegesis to avoid facing the clear and plain fact that once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

JLB777 said:

What do we inherit?

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The "guarantee of our inheritance" in Eph 1:14 is entrance into heaven and living with our Heavenly Father for eternity.

Rom 8:17a says so, on the basis of being His children.

a Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God

This is the guarantee. On the basis of being His children, we are God's heirs.

I included the second part to show another kind of inheritance, but one that has conditions attached:

b and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

To be a co-heir with Christ is conditional on "sharing in His sufferings:" in order that we may also share in His glory".

This is parallel to 2 Tim 2:12, which is about enduring and reigning with Christ, or denying Him and being denied reigning with Him.

To "share in His sufferings" is equivalent to "enduring".

To "share in His glory" is equivalent to "reigning with Him".

Obviously.

FreeGrace2 said:

The "guarantee of our inheritance" in Eph 1:14 is entrance into heaven and living with our Heavenly Father for eternity.

Click to expand...

If I put a down payment on something, then go to receive it, by paying the balance and the item turned out to be a cheap imitation of what I originally purchased, then I will get a refund, by getting my earnest money returned.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


There are two sides to a covenant.



JLB

JLB777 said:

If I put a down payment on something, then go to receive it, by paying the balance and the item turned out to be a cheap imitation of what I originally purchased, then I will get a refund, by getting my earnest money returned.

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Is this how you view God's plan of guarantee in Eph 1:14??

Please don't cheapen God by comparing Him with our experiences. That's just terrible.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

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Why do you persist in quoting this passage after claiming you are not a works salvationist? Do you really think ANY human being can fulfill this verse about "continuance in doing good" in order to receive immortality?

And the fact of what Paul followed this passage with proves that NO HUMAN can fulfill this passage.

Rom 3-
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

There are two sides to a covenant.JLB

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Which covenant are you talking about?

FreeGrace2 said:

No, I have never disagreed with this fact. The Bible plainly states this possibility.

Jesus spoke of this in His parable of the soils. #2, to be exact.


Phil 3:12 - Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Or did you think Paul was referring to salvation, that he hadn't attained salvation yet??

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Phil 3:12 NOT AS THOUGH I HAD ALREADY ATTAINED ......

Yes,,,Paul IS speaking about salvation.
Because, again proving eternal security IS CONDITIONAL...that we do NOT attain salvation until the end of our life.

We can know RIGHT NOW that we are saved....
However, will we still be trusting/hoping in God at the time of our death?

Romans 8:24-25
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Only at the end,,,will we receive our salvation.

FreeGrace2 said:

The "guarantee of our inheritance" in Eph 1:14 is entrance into heaven and living with our Heavenly Father for eternity.

Rom 8:17a says so, on the basis of being His children.

a Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God

This is the guarantee. On the basis of being His children, we are God's heirs.

I included the second part to show another kind of inheritance, but one that has conditions attached:

b and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

To be a co-heir with Christ is conditional on "sharing in His sufferings:" in order that we may also share in His glory".

This is parallel to 2 Tim 2:12, which is about enduring and reigning with Christ, or denying Him and being denied reigning with Him.

To "share in His sufferings" is equivalent to "enduring".

To "share in His glory" is equivalent to "reigning with Him".

Obviously.

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We cannot be children of God
IF WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIM
at the time of our death.

Belief = Salvation
Unbelief = Judgement

Romans 8:8
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God....
Those who do not believe in God are functioning in the flesh.
Those in the flesh do not please God...
Those that do not please God are not going to heaven.

Revelation 2:26
26To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—

God's will:
Believe in Him
Obey Him

One that FALLS AWAY cannot do this.

GodsGrace101 said:

Phil 3:12 NOT AS THOUGH I HAD ALREADY ATTAINED ......

Yes,,,Paul IS speaking about salvation.
Because, again proving eternal security IS CONDITIONAL...that we do NOT attain salvation until the end of our life.

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Then you should put your computer away, take out your Bible and a pair of scissors and cut out John 5:24, 6:47, and 1 John 5:11 and 13, because these 4 verses say in PLAIN WORDS that those who believe possess eternal life. If your belief is true, then these 4 verses cannot be true. So cut them out.

We can know RIGHT NOW that we are saved....

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Of course we can.

However, will we still be trusting/hoping in God at the time of our death?

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That is immaterial. Salvation is NOT dependent upon the believer maintaining anything.

Romans 8:24-25
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

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Apparently you seem to not understand what Paul is referring to. He is referring to ETERNITY itself. Where the saved will be with God forever.

Only at the end,,,will we receive our salvation.

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It is as "the end" that we enter eternity and be with God.

The very fact that the gift of eternal life is a PRESENT REALITY refutes your claim.

Jesus said that He gives eternal life (a gift). John 5:24 and 6:47 says WHEN that gift is given; WHEN one believes in Him. From that moment, the recipient of eternal life shall never perish.

But, since you disagree, please point out the very words that form a conditional clause in either John 10:27 or 10:28 that forms a condition for never perishing.

GodsGrace101 said:

We cannot be children of God
IF WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIM
at the time of our death.

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You were quite accurate, up until you added that last line. Then you de-railed.

Don't you believe that we become God's children on the basis of faith in Christ?

John 1:12 and Gal 3:26 say so.

Once you were born to your parents, is there ANY WAY to UN-child yourself from them? Doesn't that sound silly? Yes, of course it sounds silly. There is NO WAY.

The same holds true in the spiritual realm. Once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God. That's why the Bible uses human relationships in describing the believer's relationship to God through faith in Christ.

Just as you cannot separate your birth from your father on earth, you CANNOT separate yourself from your heavenly Father in heaven. Impossible.

But since you believe that, where is the verse that says so?

Belief = Salvation
Unbelief = Judgement

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Correct. But aren't you aware of these 2 verses?

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Do you realize what "have not believed" means? It means NEVER believed!! That's who will be condemned. In very plain words.

Romans 8:8
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God....
Those who do not believe in God are functioning in the flesh.
Those in the flesh do not please God...
Those that do not please God are not going to heaven.

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Again, you were doing great until that last line. You had to add your opinion to the mix.

Revelation 2:26
26To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—

God's will:
Believe in Him
Obey Him

One that FALLS AWAY cannot do this.

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Sure. Those believers who fall away will NOT be rewarded with authority over the nations.

Now, why would anyone assume that being given authority over the nations is a way to express entrance into heaven??

And the verse is CLEAR about earning that authority overe the nations.

So, do you believe that salvation is earned?

FreeGrace2 said:

Then you should put your computer away, take out your Bible and a pair of scissors and cut out John 5:24, 6:47, and 1 John 5:11 and 13, because these 4 verses say in PLAIN WORDS that those who believe possess eternal life. If your belief is true, then these 4 verses cannot be true. So cut them out.


Of course we can.


That is immaterial. Salvation is NOT dependent upon the believer maintaining anything.


Apparently you seem to not understand what Paul is referring to. He is referring to ETERNITY itself. Where the saved will be with God forever.


It is as "the end" that we enter eternity and be with God.

The very fact that the gift of eternal life is a PRESENT REALITY refutes your claim.

Jesus said that He gives eternal life (a gift). John 5:24 and 6:47 says WHEN that gift is given; WHEN one believes in Him. From that moment, the recipient of eternal life shall never perish.

But, since you disagree, please point out the very words that form a conditional clause in either John 10:27 or 10:28 that forms a condition for never perishing.

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The PRESENT TENSE.
It is ALWAYS the present tense.

Your verses:
John 5:24
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


John 6:47
47“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.


1 John 5:11
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:13
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


Always in the PRESENT TENSE.

If one BELIEVES.....he is IN CHRIST......and he is saved.
If one DOES NOT BELIEVE......he is NOT In Christ.....and is not saved.


Belief is necessary for salvation.
No belief.....no salvation.
Whether it be BEFORE one becomes born again...
OR when faith is abandoned. (to which I posted two pages of verses regarding this possibility).

God will not save those that do not believe......present tense.

FreeGrace2 said:

You were quite accurate, up until you added that last line. Then you de-railed.

Don't you believe that we become God's children on the basis of faith in Christ?

John 1:12 and Gal 3:26 say so.

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Of course.
We become children of God on the basis of faith in Christ, just as Galatians 3:26 states...we are children through FAITH IN JESUS.
No faith....no son....no salvation.
WHENEVER this faith is or is not present. Either BEFORE salvation or after salvation IF we fall away from our faith.
Hebrews 3:12-14
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

A person can only FALL AWAY from a position he formerly held....such as salvation.

Once you were born to your parents, is there ANY WAY to UN-child yourself from them? Doesn't that sound silly? Yes, of course it sounds silly. There is NO WAY.

The same holds true in the spiritual realm. Once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God. That's why the Bible uses human relationships in describing the believer's relationship to God through faith in Christ.

Just as you cannot separate your birth from your father on earth, you CANNOT separate yourself from your heavenly Father in heaven. Impossible.

But since you believe that, where is the verse that says so?

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Comparing humans to God is used at times to explain God.
But this is not CORRECT with adult Christians that claim to be mature in Christ.
We really should stop comparing ourselves to GOD.
Jesus used parables so we could understand God better...
but do you REALLY THINK any of us understands God fully?
No.
Let's stick to scripture and act like mature Christians please.
My earth father cannot banish me to hell.
God can.
My earth father cannot forgive my sin...
God can.
etc.
Yours is a rather silly argument.

Please show from SCRIPTURE, proof that IF I BELIEVE ONE TIME,,,,I am saved forever. Thanks.

Correct. But aren't you aware of these 2 verses?

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Do you realize what "have not believed" means? It means NEVER believed!! That's who will be condemned. In very plain words.

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Agreed. I NEVER speak about those that have NEVER believed....they are as lost as those who BELIEVED AT SOME TIME and then FELL AWAY. I've provided many verses that prove one can fall away.

Again, you were doing great until that last line. You had to add your opinion to the mix.


Sure. Those believers who fall away will NOT be rewarded with authority over the nations.

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Please post the verse that states that UNBELIEVERS at the time of THEIR DEATH will be given authority over the nations.

Now, why would anyone assume that being given authority over the nations is a way to express entrance into heaven??

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Hmmmm.....are those in hell going to have authority over the nations?

[/QUOTE]And the verse is CLEAR about earning that authority overe the nations.

So, do you believe that salvation is earned?[/QUOTE]
Ephesians 2:8
Silly question.

FreeGrace2 said:

Is this how you view God's plan of guarantee in Eph 1:14??

Please don't cheapen God by comparing Him with our experiences. That's just terrible.

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OK.
I couldn't agree more!!
But YOU do the same every time you speak about us being un-child ....

FreeGrace2 said:

Is this how you view God's plan of guarantee in Eph 1:14??

Please don't cheapen God by comparing Him with our experiences. That's just terrible.

Click to expand...

God is not the problem. He trusts each and every one who believes by giving them the down payment of the Spirit, to obey.


If on the Day of Judgement it turns out these who were given the down payment, were hypocrites, and refused to obey the Lord, then they will here these awful words on that day —


“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”Matthew 25:41-46



The problem is with the people who choose to be in Covenant with the Lord, and do not understand they are to obey Him as Lord.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Those who obey Him, who hear His voice and follow Him, will be given eternal life as a result.









JLB