Morality without God

Thomas White said:

If you believe in free will, then God doesn't control any of your decision.

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I believe that God has given us both. I can't do that, but He can get away with it.

SkyWriting said:

He made all the decisions before forming the Cosmos.

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Only affecting the cosmos at that point. Setting the planetary bodies in place in no way indicates He chooses who eats what for breakfast.

You are correct, He is not making any corrections to His plan.
But he allows people to see experience His decisions.

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Pretty nasty tyrant you have there. Certainly not the God Moses et al knew.

Reports from all who know Him say He watches what we do and records it as we will be called to answer Him for our choices. Sounds just as compared to your deity.

Dorothy Mae said:

Only affecting the cosmos at that point. Setting the planetary bodies in place in no way indicates He chooses who eats what for breakfast.

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Sorry. I could have explained that He planned and now directs the spin and location of each electron in the Cosmos according to His plan.

I didn't mean to imply that was obvious.

SkyWriting said:

Sorry. I could have explained that He planned and now directs the spin and location of each electron in the Cosmos according to His plan.

I didn't mean to imply that was obvious.

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Thanks. It seems to me He set up laws so He needn’t bother to be involved.

Dorothy Mae said:

Reports from all who know Him say He watches what we do and records it as we will be called to answer Him for our choices. Sounds just as compared to your deity.

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I do know Him and how He operates.

Here you go:
Knowing God Through Answered Prayer - Steps 1,2,&3

SkyWriting said:

I do know Him.

Here you go:

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The writers of the Bible don’t agree with your description it seems

Dorothy Mae said:

Thanks. It seems to me He set up laws so He needn’t bother to be involved.

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He is the Creator. Creation is His baby. Nothing happens not in His will.

Dorothy Mae said:

Your description of Him doesn’t match anything those who we KNOW knew him said.

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I'm not sure what you mean.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

1 John 3:20
For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Hebrews 4:13
And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Isaiah 40:28
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.

1 Chronicles 28:9
“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen

Matthew 10:30
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Psalm 147:4
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names.

Romans 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Isaiah 40:13-14
Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

Psalm 147:4-5
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

SkyWriting said:

I'm not sure what you mean.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

1 John 3:20
For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Hebrews 4:13
And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Isaiah 40:28
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.

1 Chronicles 28:9
“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen

Matthew 10:30
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Psalm 147:4
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names.

Romans 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Isaiah 40:13-14
Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

Psalm 147:4-5
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

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Which verse says he controls our every action? I don’t see it there. The verse to Jeremiah was just to him. It’s not universal.

SkyWriting said:

He is the Creator. Creation is His baby. Nothing happens not in His will.

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Then why did Jesus command us to pray his will be done??

I gather you couldn’t find the verse that says we always do his will so you reverted to man teaching.

Cis.jd said:

First ex: A non-believer can ask you: since morality isn't enough (which I agree), why can't the cosmological argument or what ever else be used for Mahavira or whoever?

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I’m not sure why you keep asking this. I’ve addressed it numerous times.

Any follower of any false religion where the false religion teaches moral uprightness can use the moral argument as evidence for their faith.

The reason they can do that is because the moral argument is a philosophical argument that isn’t dependent upon the specific claims of any particular religion. The same stands true for both the cosmological and ontological arguments.

To expose a false religion that teaches moral uprightness, you wouldn’t use the moral argument. You can always find elements of truth within every false religion.

For instance, you wouldn’t use the cosmological argument to disprove Islam. In fact, William Lane Craig, the foremost Christian apologist who utilized the cosmological argument against atheists in debates uses a specific version - The Kalam Cosmological argument which was first produced by a Muslim.

Cis.jd said:

You should have read the entire post, including what I gave about Megan Phelps instead of responding to sentence to insert the context you want. Also, this catch phrase you invented can still lead to the same problem.

First ex: A non-believer can ask you: since morality isn't enough (which I agree), why can't the cosmological argument or what ever else be used for Mahavira or whoever?

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Mahavira is not having the power to draw all men unto it. No one shall perish that God is able to draw to himself. We are here only to act as direction signs on the road they will travel. They'll get there one way or another if God knows they are positive to His drawing them. God will evaluate us. Evaluate according to how our sign was correct and clear, or misleading.

SPF said:

I’m not sure why you keep asking this. I’ve addressed it numerous times.

Any follower of any false religion where the false religion teaches moral uprightness can use the moral argument as evidence for their faith.

The reason they can do that is because the moral argument is a philosophical argument that isn’t dependent upon the specific claims of any particular religion. The same stands true for both the cosmological and ontological arguments.

To expose a false religion that teaches moral uprightness, you wouldn’t use the moral argument. You can always find elements of truth within every false religion.

For instance, you wouldn’t use the cosmological argument to disprove Islam. In fact, William Lane Craig, the foremost Christian apologist who utilized the cosmological argument against atheists in debates uses a specific version - The Kalam Cosmological argument which was first produced by a Muslim.

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The reason why I'm asking you this is because we are on the topic of Morality. My stance is that the Morality argument is not a good one anymore in using as evidence for the Christian God, all because of Christians themselves making it a horrible argument to use.

As your post at #130 shows, there are levels in effectively debating/explaining God to a non-believer. As you said, morality establishes the creator and then we can argue for christianity right after, in where you bring the cosmological argument.

The fact is, this in reverse. It's the cosmological argument that establishes the creator, the moral code explains God as a personal one, the Historical one is what brings it to Christianity. People can be introduced to God in any of the 3.

However, with out a moral code, this already gives no reason for a non-believer to believe in christianity or look at it with out any misotheistic views.

Cis.jd said:

My stance is that the Morality argument is not a good one anymore in using as evidence for the Christian God, all because of Christians themselves making it a horrible argument to use.

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You’re wrong because the validity of the argument as it is applied to a specific religion is how the God of said religion is portrayed, not His followers.

For example, if religion x taught that God was evil and that it was good to rape, lie, and murder for selfish gain, then the moral argument could be used to discredit the religion because the God of religion x is incompatible with the God established by the moral argument.

The God established by the moral argument will always align with what Scripture teaches about God. And it’s because of that reason that the moral argument can be used as evidence for Christianity.

Cis.jd said:

I've challenged you to reasonably tell me why the "morality is evidence" can't be used by a Jainist as evidence of Mahavira? Other than copping out from answering it,

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And I’ve said multiple times now that it can be used as evidence for Jainism! Likewise, it can be used as evidence for ANY false religion that teaches that it’s Creator is a moral Creator.

Cis.jd said:

At the beginning, yours/genez' stance, in contrary to mine, was that it is good. I then show you links and other examples (which you don't even bother to look at) of Christians having immoral views and also being incapable of reasonably concluding right from wrong.

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Not good.. in that sense. Its valid. Its good in that sense.

I was also saying its not good to use as discussed, and a waste of time.

SPF said:

You’re wrong because the validity of the argument as it is applied to a specific religion is how the God of said religion is portrayed, not His followers.

For example, if religion x taught that God was evil and that it was good to rape, lie, and murder for selfish gain, then the moral argument could be used to discredit the religion because the God of religion x is incompatible with the God established by the moral argument.

The God established by the moral argument will always align with what Scripture teaches about God. And it’s because of that reason that the moral argument can be used as evidence for Christianity.

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Exactly! Because of the examples Christians have made, a non-believer now sees the moral argument as discrediting to the religion of Christianity -- this is why I am saying it's a bad argument to use on a non-believer.

What your last paragraph doesn't note is that everyone has their claims of what scripture teaches and what aligns with God. Please look into the links, much more Megan Phelps, and you would notice the views are all claimed to be aligned with what scripture teaches about God.

Back in 1692, the actions done during Salem Witch trials was aligning to scripture. The Salem Witch Trials: A legal bibliography

Then you have divorce threads here where you have posters claiming that it is better for the wife to get beaten to death because it mirrors the martydom of the apostles, because it's what scripture says.
Why are there so many divorces among Christians?

We are just going in circles here.

I believe that our morality exists because of the existence of God. and I completely agree with you, that this along with the cosmological code and historical code creates the actual evidence for him. However these bad examples are all the case of the dangers of living by Scripture alone and Faith Alone.. taking all it's commandments and not looking into what the Church taught, or just the common sense to understand that not every circumstance and situation is in the Bible.

Cis.jd said:

Exactly! Because of the examples Christians have made, a non-believer now sees the moral argument

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I don’t see that happening for people educated enough to understand the scope of what the moral argument addresses.

And if I was engaged in a discussion with someone who was making the same fundamental errors as you have been (and still are), I would try to explain how the focus is on God, not His followers.

And as far as people disagreeing theologically, I don’t know of any major Christian group that disagrees over the primary attributes of God, such as Eternality, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Immutability, Omni-benevolence, Just, and other core attributes of God which align with the Creator that the moral argument establishes.

SPF said:

I don’t see that happening for people educated enough to understand the scope of what the moral argument addresses.

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You can't expect everyone to know christianity. Even if it someone who hates christianity, it's better that he lies about it (like Celsus) instead of using actual resources.

And if I was engaged in a discussion with someone who was making the same fundamental errors as you have been (and still are), I would try to explain how the focus is on God, not His followers.

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You are the only one making these errors. How can you just claim the focus is on God when everyone has their own views on what God commands. To some other christian, you are not focusing on God. You are teaching your own views.
Use some common sense. How else can a non-believer know a specific God better than the religion surrounding him?

And as far as people disagreeing theologically, I don’t know of any major Christian group that disagrees over the primary attributes of God, such as Eternality, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Immutability, Omni-benevolence, Just, and other core attributes of God which align with the Creator that the moral argument establishes.

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They don't disagree about attributes, they just disagree about he commands. The moral argument does not establish the attributes such as Omniscience.. and you've already admitting that this argument isn't just for christians.

Cis.jd said:

You are the only one making these errors. How can you just claim the focus is on God when everyone has their own views on what God commands. To some other christian, you are not focusing on God. You are teaching your own views.

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There have always at all times throughout Christianity been people who professed to be Christians who have misinterpreted Scripture, this isn’t new. I wonder when you think the moral argument went from being a good argument to a bad one?

Was it when slavery was seen as acceptable? Was it during the crusades? Was it during the reformation? Was it during a Church council? Was it during a war?

I have used the moral argument to great success, and I see no reason why it can’t continue to be used to great success when presented properly.

Perhaps you simply have such a negative view of Christianity now that you think it’s a morally bankrupt faith, which again says more about you than anything.

But frankly, unless you yourself are a poor witness of Christianity, living a lifestyle that is generally indistinguishable from a non-Christian (which is often the case today), then you should at least feel comfortable presenting the moral argument because you can use yourself as an example, and you can rightly point towards a moral God in Scripture.

I can explain to people why Christians are inconsistent, that’s not a problem. Your complaints about the moral argument are at the end of the day, actually all red herrings.