Do the unborn have rights?

Mitty

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On the contrary, the Bible asserts that if men are fighting each other and one happens to strike a woman in the process such that she loses her unborn child, the penalty to that man is a life for a life. (Exodus 21:22-25)

And there are about seven or eight other verses that indicate that the foetus is a child, and known to God as such.
That's only about the property rights of men and still doesn't change the fact that the bible commands the termination of pregnancies of adulteresses (Numbers 5:20-28), and commands genocide including butchering children and the unborn (Deut 7:16) and even commands the believers to eat their children for survival if under siege (Deut 28:53) by happily bashing them on rocks (Psalm 137:9).

And afterall biblical morality is obviously just man-made and is subjective and not objective, which is why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to kill his son as a blood sacrifice or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel since the ten commandments etc are just man-made and didn't apply to them, and why Cain(an) wasn't punished for killing his brother and was protected from retribution by his god when he relocated to Nod and lived happily ever after with one of the Nod girls (Gen 4)
 
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Aldebaran

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And afterall biblical morality is obviously just man-made and is subjective and not objective, which is why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to kill his son as a blood sacrifice

Abraham's son was Isaac, who lived out his life. He wasn't killed by Abraham.
 
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RDKirk

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There is a fine if the fetus is unharmed. Not if the fetus/child dies as a result.

If the fetus is unharmed, then that would only be an early birth--good news!--no fine would be needed. There would only be a fine to recuperate a loss...which would be the child.
 
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Mitty

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Abraham's son was Isaac, who lived out his life. He wasn't killed by Abraham.
It still doesn't change the fact that it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to kill him, since the ten commandments etc are just man-made and didn't apply to him, which is why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar either. Nor was it morally wrong for Lot to sexually assault his daughters after he mocked his sons-in-law for wanting to know what two strangers were up to in Lot's house and why Lot was tried to pimp their future wives.
 
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Mitty

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That's the way our laws tend to look at the matter today, but not according to the Bible verses referring to the status of unborn children.
The bible, however, does not give any status to foetuses or embryos since the bible commands the termination of pregnancies of adulteresses (Numbers 5:20-28).

And Exodus 21:22 says that if the woman miscarries after being assaulted then the penalty is only a fine for property loss, but if she is killed or injured then the eye-for-an-eye law applies for her injuries. And besides, embryos and foetuses don't have teeth anyway, and are unlikely to lose an eye or a hand or a foot or be burnt when the mother is assaulted either.
 
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Albion

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If the fetus is unharmed, then that would only be an early birth--good news!--no fine would be needed.
Well, I'm thinking that roughing up the mother such that it induces early delivery is deserving of some penalty!

There would only be a fine to recuperate a loss...which would be the child.
 
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Albion

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And Exodus 21:22 says that if the woman miscarries after being assaulted then the penalty is only a fine for property loss, but if she is killed or injured then the eye-for-an-eye law applies for her injuries.

Including a life for a life penalty,which would make no sense if the child were not considered an alive human just as the mother is/was
 
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Mitty

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Including a life for a life penalty,which would make no sense if the child were not considered an alive human just as the mother is/was
Wrong. The only penalty is a fine if the mother only miscarries, given that an embryo/foetus does not have any status until it is born and takes it's first breath, which is why the "life for a life" penalty only applies to the mother if she dies from the assault or a "tooth for a tooth" or an "arm for an arm" or a "bruise for a bruise".
 
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Albion

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I know you are doing everything possible not to admit to the Bible's testimony in this regard. So further discussion is useless. But if you would read Exodus 21:23 as you were referred to at the beginning, it's right there.

23 But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
 
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Mitty

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I know you are doing everything possible not to admit to the Bible's testimony in this regard. So further discussion is useless. But if you would read Exodus 21:23 as you were referred to at the beginning, it's right there.

23 But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Still doesn't change the obvious meaning of that verse, which is that only a fine is given if the mother just miscarries since an embryo or foetus does not have any status, which is why the bible commands the abortions of adulteresses (Numbers 5:20-28).

Obviously the "life for life" and "tooth for tooth" law only applies to the mother since embryos and foetuses do not have teeth.
 
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Aldebaran

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It still doesn't change the fact that it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to kill him, since the ten commandments etc are just man-made and didn't apply to him, which is why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar either. Nor was it morally wrong for Lot to sexually assault his daughters after he mocked his sons-in-law for wanting to know what two strangers were up to in Lot's house and why Lot was tried to pimp their future wives.

You might want to read the bible passages where all these things were mentioned. First, the Ten Commandments were not man-made. That's specifically written in Exodus 20:1-17

1And God spoke all these words:

2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3“You shall have no other gods before a me.

4“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13“You shall not murder.

14“You shall not commit adultery.

15“You shall not steal.

16“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
 
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Mitty

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You might want to read the bible passages where all these things were mentioned. First, the Ten Commandments were not man-made. That's specifically written in Exodus 20:1-17

1And God spoke all these words:

2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3“You shall have no other gods before a me.

4“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13“You shall not murder.

14“You shall not commit adultery.

15“You shall not steal.

16“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
That's just words in a book. Do you have any actual evidence that gods exist or were they just created in the image and likenesses of the biblical writers?
The ten commandments are obviously just man-made since they did not apply to Abraham et al or their ancestors, nor to our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was a girl. Which is why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to kill his son as a blood sacrifice, or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel, or for Noah's father to kill a boy (Gen 4:23) or for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar.
 
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Aldebaran

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That's just words in a book. Do you have any actual evidence that gods exist or were they just created in the image and likenesses of the biblical writers?
The ten commandments are obviously just man-made since they did not apply to Abraham et al or their ancestors, nor to our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was a girl. Which is why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to kill his son as a blood sacrifice, or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel, or for Noah's father to kill a boy (Gen 4:23) or for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar.

Yes, and your post is just words on a screen. Should I dismiss the source of words as written as being nothing more than just words without meaning?
 
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Albion

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That's just words in a book. Do you have any actual evidence that gods exist or were they just created in the image and likenesses of the biblical writers?

Let's review. You started by telling us that the Bible supports the idea that the unborn child does not have a right to life. Your contention, after being refuted by the Bible, was changed to telling us that the Bible which had been your evidence and your proof previously is "just words in a book."
 
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Mitty

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Yes, and your post is just words on a screen. Should I dismiss the source of words as written as being nothing more than just words without meaning?
That's your choice if you believe that the bible is "nothing more than just words without meaning", but it still doesn't change the fact that the ten commandments etc are obviously just man-made, and that biblical morality is subjective and not objective.
 
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Mitty

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Let's review. You started by telling us that the Bible supports the idea that the unborn child does not have a right to life. Your contention, after being refuted by the Bible, was changed to telling us that the Bible which had been your evidence and your proof previously is "just words in a book."
But the bible doesn't say that a foetus or embryo has a right to life, given that Numbers 5:20-28 commands the abortions of adulteresses because of the property rights of men to ensure legitimate lines of descent and inheritance. And Exodus 21:22 only imposes a fine if a woman miss-carries after being assaulted since the tooth for a tooth and a life for a life law only applies to the mother.
 
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Albion

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But the bible doesn't say that a foetus or embryo has a right to life
It says that it is a life, the same as the mother. And there are many verses that say that God knew the person while in the womb.

The unborn child of Elizabeth leapt for joy when Mary arrived to tell of her own pregnancy, and more. In the face of all of this, to argue that the fetus is not a human and therefore entitled to human rights is not credible--at least as the Bible is concerned.
 
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Mitty

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It says that it is a life, the same as the mother. And there are many verses that say that God knew the person while in the womb.

The unborn child of Elizabeth leapt for joy when Mary arrived to tell of her own pregnancy, and more. In the face of all of this, to argue that the fetus is not a human and therefore entitled to human rights is not credible--at least as the Bible is concerned.
Just words in a book. And none of that changes the fact that Exodus 21:22 says that only a fine is imposed for property loss if the woman miscarries after being assaulted.

Nor does it change the commandment in Numbers 5:20-28 to abort the pregnancies of adulteresses.
 
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