Killing unborn babies -- is it a moral question or just politics?

BobRyan · Mar 5, 2020

The claim is made that women in America have a "constitutional right" to kill unborn babies. I thought this was a moral question - since we are talking about killing another human being when discussing aborting the unborn baby's life.

Normally law is against murder. So what is this "constitutional right" to murder? Turns out ... they claim it is in the short little "due process" clause of the constitution ...protecting "life, liberty and property".

"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

And the Bible says "thou shalt not kill"

You would "think" that "not depriving the baby of life" would mean "a law against killing unborn babies".

But maybe the ruling was that "protecting liberty" meant protecting the liberty to "kill other humans".

However the Bible does not "change" just because someone makes a strained argument of the form "the constitution protects life so that means you should be able to kill an unborn baby".

Are churches and church members so mixed up on this point that they think the constitution trumps the Bible command against murder? And what sort of rendering is that for the right to life in that "due process" clause, that can spin it on its head to say "the right to life is the right to kill other humans"??

==================================

In 2016, 27.9% of all abortions were performed by early medical abortion (a nonsurgical abortion at ≤8 weeks’ gestation),

So then 72.1% are done at > 8 weeks.

human gestation 8 weeks old - Bing images

Not "just a bunch of chromosomes" at that point.

Jonaitis · Mar 5, 2020

BobRyan said:
The claim is made that women in America have a "constitutional right" to kill unborn babies. I thought this was a moral question - since we are talking about killing another human being.

Normally the law is against murder. So what is the "constitutional right" to murder? Turns out ... they claim it is in the short little "due process" clause protecting life, liberty and property.

"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

You would "think" that "not depriving the baby of life" would mean "a law against killing unborn babies".

But maybe the ruling was that "protecting liberty" meant protecting the liberty to "kill other humans".

However the Bible does not "change" just because someone makes a strained argument of the form "the constitution protects life so that means you should be able to kill an unborn baby".

Are churches and church members so mixed up on this point that they think the constitution trumps the Bible command against murder? And what sort of rendering is that for the right to life in that "due process" clause, that can spin it on its head to say "the right to life is the right to kill other humans"??

Dude, while abortion has existed throughout history in some way or form, it was not an issue in the days of our forefathers. Had it been, it would have been included specifically.

BobRyan · Mar 5, 2020

Jonaitis said:
Dude, while abortion has existed throughout history in some way or form, it was not an issue in the days of our forefathers. Had it been, it would have been included specifically.

Killing has been around since Genesis 4

Baby killing was going on according to Lev 18:21 , 20:1-4 - and was condemned

HARK! · Mar 5, 2020

Jonaitis said:
Dude, while abortion has existed throughout history in some way or form, it was not an issue in the days of our forefathers. Had it been, it would have been included specifically.

Perhaps it was not an issue because people in that day were more rooted in obedience to

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.

Jonaitis · Mar 5, 2020

HARK! said:
Perhaps it was not an issue because people in that day were more rooted in obedience to YHWH.

You're not typing his name in the original language! Blasphemy!

*Smh. Using pagan characters!*

SkyWriting · Mar 5, 2020

BobRyan said:
And the Bible says "thou shalt not kill"

Which part?

HARK! · Mar 5, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Which part?

Bob used a poor translation.

I hope this helps you out:

(CLV) Ex 20:13
You shall not murder.

Dale · Mar 6, 2020

BobRyan said:
The claim is made that women in America have a "constitutional right" to kill unborn babies. I thought this was a moral question - since we are talking about killing another human being when discussing aborting the unborn baby's life.

Normally law is against murder. So what is this "constitutional right" to murder? Turns out ... they claim it is in the short little "due process" clause of the constitution ...protecting "life, liberty and property".

"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

And the Bible says "thou shalt not kill"

You would "think" that "not depriving the baby of life" would mean "a law against killing unborn babies".

But maybe the ruling was that "protecting liberty" meant protecting the liberty to "kill other humans".

However the Bible does not "change" just because someone makes a strained argument of the form "the constitution protects life so that means you should be able to kill an unborn baby".

Are churches and church members so mixed up on this point that they think the constitution trumps the Bible command against murder? And what sort of rendering is that for the right to life in that "due process" clause, that can spin it on its head to say "the right to life is the right to kill other humans"??

Bob, you do identify yourself as a Seventh Day Adventist.

Keep in mind that Ellen White, the founder of the SDA Church, wrote a 450 page book about sexual morality. The title is Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultery and Divorce. Let's keep in mind that she said

*nothing*

about abortion.

Instead, she goes on and on about how horrible it is for a Seventh Day Adventist to be married to someone who isn't a member of the SDA church.

Dale · Mar 6, 2020

BobRyan said:
The claim is made that women in America have a "constitutional right" to kill unborn babies. I thought this was a moral question - since we are talking about killing another human being when discussing aborting the unborn baby's life.

Normally law is against murder. So what is this "constitutional right" to murder? Turns out ... they claim it is in the short little "due process" clause of the constitution ...protecting "life, liberty and property".

"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

And the Bible says "thou shalt not kill"

You would "think" that "not depriving the baby of life" would mean "a law against killing unborn babies".

But maybe the ruling was that "protecting liberty" meant protecting the liberty to "kill other humans".

However the Bible does not "change" just because someone makes a strained argument of the form "the constitution protects life so that means you should be able to kill an unborn baby".

Are churches and church members so mixed up on this point that they think the constitution trumps the Bible command against murder? And what sort of rendering is that for the right to life in that "due process" clause, that can spin it on its head to say "the right to life is the right to kill other humans"??

I noticed recently that the SDA Church has changed their position on abortion. In October they adopted a position that actually sounds like something a pro-lifer would say, for most of its length.

I'll just point out the weasel words in the very new SDA position.

The new SDA position paper is titled, Statement on the Biblical View of Unborn Life and Its Implications for Abortion.

In the first paragraph: "Consequently, individuals are at times faced with difficult dilemmas and decisions regarding a pregnancy."

Later: "While not condoning abortion, the Church and its members are called to follow the example of Jesus ... "

Under Implications, in what appears to be the climatic paragraph, we are called on to
"provide emotional and spiritual support to those who have aborted a child for various reasons or were forced to have an abortion and may be hurting physically, emotionally, and/or spiritually."

The final sentence opens: "The issue of abortion presents enormous challenges ..."

There is some truth to that.

Link to recent SDA statement:
Statement on the Biblical View of Unborn Life and Its Implications for Abortion – Seventh-day Adventist Church Official Web Site

SkyWriting · Mar 6, 2020

HARK! said:
Bob used a poor translation.
I hope this helps you out:
(CLV) Ex 20:13
You shall not murder.

There are other parts in the Bible to enjoy:

Numbers 21
2Then Israel made this vow to the Lord: “If you will deliver these people into our hands, we will totally destroy their cities.” 3 The Lord listened to Israel’s plea and gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns; so the place was named Hormah.

Deuteronomy 20
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

Joshua 6:17

NBB · Mar 6, 2020

You are 'sending a soul to God' when killing babies, that is serious, and is the murder of a person.
The baby John the baptist was it? the mother felt he 'kicked out of happiness'? when in the womb.

He was filled with the Holy spirit even before born, so you may see how serious is killing babies.

BNR32FAN · Mar 6, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Which part?

Leviticus 20:13

^ Leviticus 18:22

^ Leviticus 18:22 (LXX)

^ Leviticus 20:13 (LXX)

^ Leviticus 20:13

^ Leviticus 18:22

^ Exodus 22:19

^ Leviticus 20:15–16

^ Leviticus 21:9

^ Genesis 9:6

^ Exodus 21:12–14

^ Leviticus 24:17–23

^ Numbers 35:9–34

^ Exodus 21:28–32

^ Exodus 21:15

^ Exodus 21:17

^ Leviticus 20:9

^ Deuteronomy 21:18–21

^ Ehrman, Bart (2009). "Eight.

Actually the commandment is thou shalt not commit murder, which refers to an unlawful killing.

SkyWriting · Mar 6, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Actually the commandment is thou shalt not commit murder, which refers to an unlawful killing.

Which killings are the lawful ones? These are ok?

1 Samuel 15 New International Version (NIV)

15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.

3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Daniel 3
29 Therefore I decree that the people of any nation or language who say anything against the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego (non-Christians) be cut into pieces and their houses be turned into piles of rubble, for no other god can save in this way."

BNR32FAN · Mar 6, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Which killings are the lawful ones? These are ok?

1 Samuel 15 New International Version (NIV)

15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.

3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Daniel 3
29 Therefore I decree that the people of any nation or language who say anything against the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego (non-Christians) be cut into pieces and their houses be turned into piles of rubble, for no other god can save in this way."

The quote from Samuel is a commandment of God so yes it is ok. The quote from Daniel is quoting Nebuchadnezzar, not God so no that is not ok.

SkyWriting · Mar 6, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
The quote from Samuel is a commandment of God so yes it is ok. The quote from Daniel is quoting Nebuchadnezzar, not God so no that is not ok.

Nebuchadnezzar was in charge of the law.
1 Peter 2:13-17
2 Peter 2:10
Titus 3
1 Timothy 2
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1
Romans 13
Proverbs 21
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11
Jude 1:8
Colossians 1:15-17
Ecclesiastes 10:20
Acts 8:32
Acts 23:5
Matthew 10:38

Gods written laws are obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

grasping the after wind · Mar 6, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Actually the commandment is thou shalt not commit murder, which refers to an unlawful killing.

If we changed the law in New York State so that any killing of a human being was considered perfectly legal as long as one got a license from the State that cost several thousand dollars , then God would not see anyone killed in New York State by a licensed person as having been murdered?

SkyWriting · Mar 6, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
If we changed the law in New York State so that any killing of a human being was considered perfectly legal as long as one got a license from the State that cost several thousand dollars , then God would not see anyone killed in New York State by a licensed person as having been murdered?

Correct. Murder is defined by local law. For example, doctors use morphine to kill people in Hospice programs every day of the week.
See also:#24

grasping the after wind · Mar 6, 2020

Kevinw05 said:
Well, I hope it's similar to what I told you. Unless they absolutely need me I would rather just run my information through you to them rather than having to actually go there, But if they need me, please let me know and give them my full name Kevin Wayne White, as well. Thank you.

I'll pass the information along to Andy. As long as you are not a right winger that believes in the second amendment or is pro life he will not tell you are not welcome in New York State.

JacksBratt · Mar 6, 2020

BobRyan said:
The claim is made that women in America have a "constitutional right" to kill unborn babies. I thought this was a moral question - since we are talking about killing another human being when discussing aborting the unborn baby's life.

Normally law is against murder. So what is this "constitutional right" to murder? Turns out ... they claim it is in the short little "due process" clause of the constitution ...protecting "life, liberty and property".

"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

And the Bible says "thou shalt not kill"

You would "think" that "not depriving the baby of life" would mean "a law against killing unborn babies".

But maybe the ruling was that "protecting liberty" meant protecting the liberty to "kill other humans".

However the Bible does not "change" just because someone makes a strained argument of the form "the constitution protects life so that means you should be able to kill an unborn baby".

Are churches and church members so mixed up on this point that they think the constitution trumps the Bible command against murder? And what sort of rendering is that for the right to life in that "due process" clause, that can spin it on its head to say "the right to life is the right to kill other humans"??

I seriously don't think that the laws of abortion are ever going to change. It is a trigger, in politics, that will lose you the election. Just happened in Canada. Our Progressive Concervative candidate for the federal election stated that he does not condone abortion due to his own beliefs.. BUT he is not going to bring it up in his term in politics because the law is already in place and that's what the people want.. He lost...

Even though, like Hillary, he got the popular vote.. He lost because people saw him as anti abortion and Christian. Even though he stated that he would not bring it up again and there are far more pressing things to work though.. All the people saw was that...

So, it's a political knife in your back if your against it...

Morally... even with the law that you can abort legally... it is still up to the woman to make that choice.

Women in Ontario have had the right to go topless for years now... How many do you see.... Don't think I've seen any.

Women have the legal right to kill their baby... but... they only sin if they do it.

BobRyan · Mar 6, 2020

JacksBratt said:
I seriously don't think that the laws of abortion are ever going to change. It is a trigger, in politics, that will lose you the election. Just happened in Canada. Our Progressive Concervative candidate for the federal election stated that he does not condone abortion due to his own beliefs.. BUT he is not going to bring it up in his term in politics because the law is already in place and that's what the people want.. He lost...

Yep - the idea that the right to baby killing might be infringed upon is a pretty high priority among some leftist groups ... apparently a lot of them in Canada as well.

JacksBratt said:
Even though, like Hillary, he got the popular vote.. He lost because people saw him as anti abortion and Christian. Even though he stated that he would not bring it up again and there are far more pressing things to work though.. All the people saw was that...

You know.. there is a lesson there. The most extreme concessions by the right in favor of the left - does not help the right at all. Might as well stand for Bible morality and let the chips fall where they may.

Killing unborn babies -- is it a moral question or just politics?

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