Face book friend posted this. So, how's he wrong?

FineLinen · Mar 5, 2020

martymonster said:
I don't really see you addressing the problem. Nowhere does scripture ever speak of us sending ourselves to eternally tormented. You answer doesn't address the concern of the meme, that ultimately, God is holding his creation to higher standards than himself, if he doesn't actually do what he tells others to do.

Dear Marty: The Father of all fathers Name is dearest Daddy (iow) Abba. Abba has one purpose only for His creation, to bring it home to Himself by at-one-ment. Not some of it, not more than some, the whole sick and sorry all of it! The good, the bad & the ugly is coming Home to the Author & Finisher for radical transformation.

The A. & F. loses nothing!

FineLinen · Mar 5, 2020

Kris Jordan said:
Hi Martymonster,

We can't separate-out God's love from His justice, holiness, and righteousness or He wouldn't be God. God's attributes and character all operate concurrently and in perfect harmony together at all times. Many people attempt to separate His attributes and embrace only those which suit their own desires or beliefs to the exclusion of the rest, but "that god" is a manufactured one, not the Living God who has revealed Himself to us in His word.

When people are confronted with the reality of sin and hell, they will often cite God’s loving nature as their defense against such things, as if His love should compel Him to overlook or accept their sin. Or, in the case of your friend's post, they attempt to malign God's character by claiming He can't love those whom He must carry out His righteous justice upon.

The problem with these skewed perceptions of God is that - because He is loving and holy, just, and righteous - He cannot close His eyes to sin; otherwise, He would not be holy, just and righteous. Using a human example, we would never consider a courtroom judge "just" if his rendered sentence upon a convicted rapist or murderer was freedom and exoneration instead of a prison sentence. That judge would be corrupt, not just. Likewise, God's attribute of being loving doesn't cancel out or supersede any other attribute of His; instead they must function together and in perfect harmony at all times.

To specifically address this FB post, God can absolutely love those who end up in hell even when they are experiencing His just punishment for their sin. To say otherwise would be like saying a parent doesn't love their child for disciplining them for bad behavior.

Love doesn't ignore wrongdoing. If it did, it's not genuine love. And it was because of God's love for us (as sinners) that He sent Jesus to die for us so we wouldn't have to suffer His just judgment in hell for our sins. But if we reject His payment for our sins, we will unfortunately suffer for them ourselves because God's justice will be rendered since sin must be punished.

Dear Kris: All sin is wrongdoing and will be rectified by absolute cleansing of His Fire. But make zero mistake, the Love of God prevails! In fact it is the foundation for everything He does. All of His perfect justice flow out of His essence.

God IS Love, Love never fails, EVER!

"I have a word for you. I know your whole life story. I know every skeleton in your closet. I know every moment of sin, shame, dishonesty and degraded love that has darkened your past. Right now I know your shallow faith, your feeble prayer life, your inconsistent discipleship. And my word is this: I dare you to trust that I love you just as you are, and not as you should be. Because you’re never going to be as you should be." -Brennan Manning-

hedrick · Mar 5, 2020

Peter J Barban said:
1. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (OT)

etc.

These passages have the usual issues:

The OT passages are pretty clearly not talking about eternal torment, but about death.
The NT passages are alluding to the OT passages
At least one of the NT passages is obvious hyperbole (cutting off body parts).

If you are going to read these passages literally, I believe you get annihilation. However they have to be read together with Jesus' statements that God will forgive everyone, or at least everyone who hasn't committed the sin against the Holy Spirit, and Paul's vision of everyone being saved. Personally I think the Biblical authors may have disagreed. Matthew is very clearly more interested in punishment than Luke. You can see those not just in his statements about judgement but the spin he gives to the narrow gate and a couple of other passages. But even Matthew preserves Jesus' statement that we should love our enemies because God is kind to his.

How do you combine these? The best I can do is to say that despite the eternal fires, they are referring to something that eventually ends, such as 1 Cor 3:12 ff. But it may be that there is no resolution possible and we have to pick one. I know which one I'll pick.

1213 · Mar 5, 2020

martymonster said:
But how do you reconcile that idea, with verses like this one?

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The torment is the fire. The fire burns and rises forever. It is not same as they live and suffer forever.

Kris Jordan · Mar 5, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear Kris: All sin is wrongdoing and will be rectified by absolute cleansing of His Fire. But make zero mistake, the Love of God prevails! In fact it is the foundation for everything He does. All of His perfect justice flow out of His essence.

God IS Love, Love never fails, EVER!

"I have a word for you. I know your whole life story. I know every skeleton in your closet. I know every moment of sin, shame, dishonesty and degraded love that has darkened your past. Right now I know your shallow faith, your feeble prayer life, your inconsistent discipleship. And my word is this: I dare you to trust that I love you just as you are, and not as you should be. Because you’re never going to be as you should be." -Brennan Manning-

Hi FineLinen,

I'm not sure I'm understanding your point in relation to you quoting my post...

martymonster · Mar 5, 2020

1213 said:
The torment is the fire. The fire burns and rises forever. It is not same as they live and suffer forever.

They will live forever, but they will not suffer forever.

FineLinen · Mar 6, 2020

Kris Jordan said:
Hi FineLinen,

I'm not sure I'm understanding your point in relation to you quoting my post...

Dear Kris: I will attempt to be more understandable or at least clearer in understanding the Lord & His working.

Foundation #1 =

Our God IS love. This is His essence (what He is). His essence is also Light/Spirit/Rectification from which His pure justice flows. ALL of our Father Abba's justice is bathed in Light and leads to at-one-ment/rectification.

Justice=

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

"Unto You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."

FineLinen · Mar 6, 2020

All sin is wrongdoing and will be rectified by absolute cleansing of His Fire. But make zero mistake, the Love of God prevails! In fact it is the foundation for everything He does. All of His perfect justice flow out of His essence.

God IS Love, Love never fails, EVER!

RDKirk · Mar 6, 2020

hedrick said:
We don't know whether the meme was posted by a Christian or non-Christian. But I think it would be fair for a non-Christian to think that Christianity includes the concept of eternal torment. Most Christians do believe this, and many think that the alternatives contradict the core Gospel.

I don't much like Christianity to be judged by beliefs I think are both un-biblical and wrong, but a non-Christian probably should judge Christianity by what most Christians believe and do. It's reasonable to believe that if Christianity is what it claims to be, it should advocate and demonstrate better qualities and show a better type of life than the general culture. If Rodney Stark's analysis is right, that was what caused Christianity to grow within the Roman Empire.

I think starting in the 20th Cent, that is no longer true. I can't help wondering if that's part of why a younger generation isn't interested. If they don't see things to admire in Christians around them, and in fact Christianity seems in some cases to make people worse, why bother investigating any further?

Christ called on His Body to love surprisingly. We see in Acts and the epistles that they indeed, did love people that others found surprising in the diversity of the Body.

The fact that Christians--like unbelievers--tend to love only those who love them is the one negative thing about modern Western Christianity for which I have no rhetorical defense. But Christianity is not like that everywhere, particularly in those places that Christianity has never been the default religion.

RDKirk · Mar 6, 2020

hedrick said:
There are lots of attempts to make eternal torment seem reasonable. This is one of them. But the passages show God sending them to it. The OT images of fire are fire from heaven, not fires that came from knocking over a lamp and got out of control.

If annihilation is true, it's annihilation done by God.

Personally I think anything other than universalism has severe moral problems, though it's not the obvious reading of much of the NT.

The severe moral problem of Universalism is that it presents no reason for the present.

Why has God put the world through all these centuries of torment if in the end He's merely going to change everyone's head and make everyone right? What's the point of the evil of today?

hedrick · Mar 6, 2020

RDKirk said:
The severe moral problem of Universalism is that it presents no reason for the present.

Why has God put the world through all these centuries of torment if in the end He's merely going to change everyone's head and make everyone right? What's the point of the evil of today?

It's an interesting question. How is creating a system where (if you believe traditional calculations) 90% of the human race is going to suffer forever better? Most attempts to explain suffering assume God is trying to develop people with certain qualities. I'm not aware of any attempts to understand it that don't end up in some variant of that.

But what about the rest? Discard them, punish them forever, or convert them. All have problems.

The other option is that God isn't responsible for evil. There seems to be lots of support in Scripture for that, though a few passages that suggest he is and some serious theological implications.

I don't see a wonderful alternative anywhere here. But the one that seems the worst is infinite punishment for most humans. I'm also concerned with the moral implications for Christians in believing and teaching this. It would seem to require people to deaden their empathy. And might tend to result in people who, I don't know, don't care if a lot of people don't get health care?

public hermit · Mar 6, 2020

RDKirk said:
The severe moral problem of Universalism is that it presents no reason for the present.

Why has God put the world through all these centuries of torment if in the end He's merely going to change everyone's head and make everyone right? What's the point of the evil of today?

Kindly, I disagree that this "moral problem" for Universalism is as significant as it might seem. Eternal torment doesn't explain evil, either. Your point basically says God "put the world through all these centuries of torment," in order that some would be condemned. In other words, your point is essentially: the condemnation of some explains evil today. That may be a reason, but you can't blame some folks for finding it unconvincing.

Likewise, the Universalist could give a reason for evil today. The reason there is evil is because we are created spiritually immature, not-yet-ready, for eternal life. Being created out of nothing, and not being created perfect, we must grow to maturity, spiritual maturity that leads to life. We must grow from death to life, overcoming evil and non-being is part of that process. This world (the present) is growing pains for eternal life. Christ was the first birth from death to life, and carries humanity with him into life. God will redeem all, but all must go through Christ, becoming like him, i.e. fit for eternal life.

That reason may not convince you. But, it is a reason, nonetheless. And it is sufficient to function as a defeater for the argument that Universalism offers no reason for the present. Now, the argument becomes "Whose reason sounds better, yours or the Universalist's?" It does no good to appeal to scripture. Both sides can present passages. And, counting who has the most passages just doesn't quite resolve the issue.

FineLinen · Mar 6, 2020

hedrick said:
It's an interesting question. How is creating a system where (if you believe traditional calculations) 90% of the human race is going to suffer forever better? Most attempts to explain suffering assume God is trying to develop people with certain qualities. I'm not aware of any attempts to understand it that don't end up in some variant of that.

But what about the rest? Discard them, punish them forever, or convert them. All have problems.

The other option is that God isn't responsible for evil. There seems to be lots of support in Scripture for that, though a few passages that suggest he is and some serious theological implications.

I don't see a wonderful alternative anywhere here. But the one that seems the worst is infinite punishment for most humans. I'm also concerned with the moral implications for Christians in believing and teaching this. It would seem to require people to deaden their empathy. And might tend to result in people who, I don't know, don't care if a lot of people don't get health care?

Dear Hedrick: Any system that has the Author & Finisher of the all losing the vast, vast majority of His creation to sin & evil, is falling so far short, all words in my vocabulary fall far short of conveying the utter impossibility of such a ghastly dogma!

Adam1 = all "made sinners."

Last Adam= all "made righteous."

hedrick · Mar 6, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear Hedrick: Any system that has the Author & Finisher of the all losing the vast, vast majority of His creation to sin & evil, is falling so far short, all words in my vocabulary fall far short of conveying the utter impossibility of such a ghastly dogma!

I think Paul would agree with you. But I have to admit that there is some sense to the question: what's the point of putting us all through this if everyone is going to end up saved?

I think this question has possible answers. But it's not a slam-dunk.

But I think the real problem for Christians is that for many people the Gospel is that Christ died to save us from eternal torture. If that option is off the table, we need a very different concept of what the Gospel is about and why Christ died. That's not something many Christians are prepared to consider. It's almost a different religion, with different moral and political implications. I think of the world very differently if everyone around me matters eternally than if 90% of them will end up as trash or worse. I also think of God differently.

I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect people to transition by doing exegesis. It requires something like a conversion, which in the end only the Holy Spirit can do.

RDKirk · Mar 6, 2020

public hermit said:
Kindly, I disagree that this "moral problem" for Universalism is as significant as it might seem. Eternal torment doesn't explain evil, either. Your point basically says God "put the world through all these centuries of torment," in order that some would be condemned. In other words, your point is essentially: the condemnation of some explains evil today. That may be a reason, but you can't blame some folks for finding it unconvincing.

No, I did not make that point.

Der Alte · Mar 6, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinene said:
All sin is wrongdoing and will be rectified by absolute cleansing of His Fire. But make zero mistake, the Love of God prevails! In fact it is the foundation for everything He does. All of His perfect justice flow out of His essence.
God IS Love, Love never fails, EVER!

Unfortunately there are zero scriptures which definitely state this. UR is arrived at by a series of inferences. E.g. we are commanded to love our enemies. Inference: therefore God must love His enemies too. But some folks forget that God did not love His enemies in Genesis 7:21, Genesis 19:24-25, Exodus 11:5, Exodus 14:28 et alii.

FireBrimstone · Mar 6, 2020

martymonster said:
I don't really see you addressing the problem. Nowhere does scripture ever speak of us sending ourselves to eternally tormented. You answer doesn't address the concern of the meme, that ultimately, God is holding his creation to higher standards than himself, if he doesn't actually do what he tells others to do.

It's really hard to put yourself in God's shoes. We have to deal with our enemies for a short time here on Earth. God has to decide what to do with them for eternity. If you had 10 sons and one hated the other nine, would you hope they could work out their differences through love or would you be okay with them hating each other until the day they died ? In the end God has to decide what to do with people that reject him and his children.

martymonster · Mar 6, 2020

FireBrimstone said:
It's really hard to put yourself in God's shoes. We have to deal with our enemies for a short time here on Earth. God has to decide what to do with them for eternity. If you had 10 sons and one hated the other nine, would you hope they could work out their differences through love or would you be okay with them hating each other until the day they died ? In the end God has to decide what to do with people that reject him and his children.

So the God that created everything that has ever existed, couldn't find another way to deal with his enemies?

RDKirk · Mar 7, 2020

Ultimately, like so many other questions, this one is not one important enough to require an answer at the present time.

Der Alte · Mar 7, 2020

hedrick said:
It's an interesting question. How is creating a system where (if you believe traditional calculations) 90% of the human race is going to suffer forever better? ...

This comment seems to imply that traditional Christianity was deliberately created to ensure that 90% of the human race was going to suffer forever. Is that your belief?

Face book friend posted this. So, how's he wrong?

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