Most of us all agree Gal. 3:23 is not saying there was no faith in the OT, so then what about works?

To all:

Well, the problem that many fail to understand is that I am not promoting that we follow the 613 Law of Moses. I am saying we need to follow the commands of Jesus and His followers in the New Testament. Folks are labeling all forms of obedience and or laws of any kind as being in reference to the "Law" that Paul talked about, when this is not the case. Why would Paul write down commands for us believers just so that we can ignore them? Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:37 that what he has written should be regarded as the commandments of the Lord. Paul said that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Paul said that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22).

Problem is that most Christians today have a shallow surface reading of Scripture (that simply ignores the context). Whenever they see the words "law" or "works" they instantly jump to the wrong conclusion that it is referring to all forms of "law" and all forms of "works" when this is not the case. They read these words ripped out of their surrounding chapters. In Galatians and Romans: Paul was clearly referring to the Old Law, and he never once referred to how we can ignore the new commands given to us by Jesus, and or how we can ignore his very own commands given to us by his own pen (via by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit).

That is what this whole thread is about. When your average Christian reads Galatians 3:23, in most cases, they do not read Galatians 3:23 out of its context and assume that there was "no faith" in the Old Testament or Old Covenant. Why? Because it does not require them to change their life all that much in believing that verse. But when it comes to when they see the words "law" and "works," this has to be read the wrong way as if somebody were to read Galatians 3:23 the wrong way. The motivation or reason? Simple. It would require a change in their life (Which is something that is uncomfortable for them to do).

Also, some in the Eternal Security or Belief Alone Camp will ignore whole swafs of Scripture in the NEW TESTAMENT on the account of this. They will not properly address any of the NT Commands I put forth to them using the context of those verses I quoted. Many will take 2 Corinthians 3:6 out of its context and wrongfully assume that Paul was referring to how we must ignore the literal letter of Scripture (in all its forms) when that is not what he was talking about in context. He was referring to the Old Testament and its laws. He was pointing out things were simply different between the Old and the New. He was not prescribing for any Christian to just love in the way they feel is right at the expense of NT Scripture. People today have all kinds of funny ideas about what love is. Love might be accepting of sin in some way. Love to another person may be just going around hugging trees and petting horses. Love can mean many things to different people. But the Bible tells us how to love. Many Christians today want to ignore God's words in the New Covenant for their lives, and write them all off based on a misinterpretation of one verse (2 Corinthians 3:6). Sorry, we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word, and we have to accept all of God's Word. We cannot just cherry pick the Bible those verses we want to see or follow. That would make it the holey bible and not the HOLY BIBLE.

To all:

Some people today advocate disobedience to the Lord vs. obedience to the Lord. Common basic sense and in reading the NT Scriptures suggests that God wants us to obey Him, and He does not want us to disobey Him. The whole theme of the Bible is about man's sin and God desiring man to be in a right relationship with God by obeying Him. Nowhere did God ever approve of our disobedience in the Bible. Yet, I am sure, that will not stop those here from advocating disobedience to God as the true way of God.

To all:

Romans 7:14-24, and 1 John 1:8, are two common pieces of Scripture that are commonly used by the Belief Alone proponent to advocate disobedience on some level. In Romans 7:14-24: Paul is speaking as Pharisee when he was under the Pharisee religion that was all about trying to be saved by the Law (with little to no grace). Paul was making a case of how we need to be saved by God's grace and not by the way of the Jew or circumcision vs. being saved first by God's grace (See: Romans 3:1). 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against the gnostic belief that said that when they sinned, sin did not exist for them. It was basically a denial of sin's existence. Whereby John told us that the proper way to deal with sin is not to ignore it, but to confess of it to Jesus so as to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

To all:

Some will try to downplay the idea that all forms of Law as being bad based on 1 Corinthians 15:56. This does relate to Romans 7:14-24 with Paul's accounting of trying to keep the Old Law while as a Pharisee in the Pharisee religion that was all about the Law alone as a means for salvation (Instead of first being saved by God's grace and making that the foundation of our faith in harmony with Sanctification in following Jesus). We have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word. While Corinthians does not in context refer to the Law of Moses specifically as Paul's point in reference to the Law here in 1 Corinthians 15:56, Paul does clearly refer to the "law" as in reference to the "Law of Moses" in Galatians and Romans. Besides, in 1 Corinthians 5, Paul tells the Corinthians to kick out that believer who is fornicating and not to have any fellowship with a brother who is a fornicator, drunkard, etc. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Paul says, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." So Paul is not teaching that we can live any way we want under God's grace and be saved.

To all:

Not all sin is the same.
We do not have to faultless obey all of God's commands in the NT in order to be saved today. Although we should strive to obey all of His commands (in this life), there are sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-17). Paul was not condemned for not obeying the Spirit in heeding the warning to stay away from Jerusalem. Paul was not condemned because he loved his people and he wanted to see them saved. So yes, there is no law against love. This is true. But we are also not our own Lord's and masters, either. We are bought and paid for with a price and we are not our own. We follow Jesus and His followers in what they say and we do not follow what we think is in our own minds on what is loving and good. The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. I would rather follow Jesus and not myself in what I feel is right.

To all:

The next time you read Paul, whenever you encounter the word "law" try reading it from the perspective that the word "law" is in reference to the 613 Laws of Moses as a package deal or contract (or covenant), and it is not referring to the Laws of Christ. I say this because Hebrews 7:12 says that the Law has changed. If following Jesus and what His followers taught to just love in any way you feel is right (like tree hugging or making heart hand symbols at people), and it did not involve following the Lord's specific commands, then Jesus and His followers would have not given us any commands in the New Testament. The fact that these New Covenant commands exist in the NT is a "testament" that we should follow them. To say so otherwise is simply to rip out whole pages of our Bible or to black them out using a black magic marker.

The next time you read Paul, whenever you encounter the word "works" try reading it from the perspective of either "works alone without God's grace," and or the "works of the 613 Laws of Moses." Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. If somebody made circumcision the basis for their salvation, they would be making the Old Law the foundation of their salvation and not Jesus Christ. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

The heresy of Circumcision Salvationism described:

1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
   
   
2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
   
   
3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Paul's words against Circumcision Salvationism:

1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
   
   
2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
   
   
3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
   
   
4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
   
   
5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
   
   
6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
   
   
7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
   
   
8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
   
   
9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

This is why Paul spoke negatively against the words "law" and "works." Paul was primarily concerned with people getting saved initially by God's grace before helping them to move on in the Sanctification Process, and or obeying Jesus and His followers. They needed the milk of the Word first, and not the meat of the Word.

So whenever you read Paul, many times the case that he was making was the 1st foundational aspect of our salvation (Which is God's grace through faith in Christ). Paul did not want to confuse the issue with Sanctification (Although Paul did later refer to Sanctification at different points or at a later time, though). Paul's concern was to get people saved by God's grace (Which was an aspect of salvation that is based primarily on God's grace and not works). When Paul was talking about grace, he was not teaching that was the only aspect or process of salvation. His words elsewhere makes that abundantly clear (1 Timothy 6:3-4, 2 2 Timothy 3:1-9, Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, 1 Corinthians 16:22, Titus 1:16, Titus 2:11-12).

Conclusion:

Yes, it is true, we are not under the Law (Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace via by the Law of Moses - Romans 6:14), and we are under God's grace. However, salvation is in God's grace (through faith Christ and the gospel), and then it is followed by Sanctification (that involves us following Jesus and His followers). If not, we can simply be our own lords and masters, and not followers of Jesus Christ.

To all:

Those who are under the Law and cannot overcome sin as mentioned in Romans 7:14-24 is in reference to those who are trying to be saved by the Old Testament Law of Moses (the 613) alone (without God's grace through faith in Jesus CHrist). Romans 3:1 mentions circumcision as being a problem. Men were thinking back then that they had to be circumcised first in order to be initially saved (instead of trusting in Jesus as their Savior first) (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). While many will advocate disobedience to God, there are ways to overcome sin (Despite their claim to the contrary).

Ways to overcome sin by God's Word and with the help of Jesus:

#1. Remove yourself from sinful environments.
Remove yourself from sinful environments (if possible) and or get rid of things that cause you to sin. In Genesis: Joseph had literally ran away from the temptation of sexual sin (Genesis 39:11-12). One of the commands in the New Testament is: "Flee fornication." (1 Corinthians 6:18) (Note: Paul says that what he had written should be regarded as the commandments of the Lord - 1 Corinthians 14:37) (KJV). Sometimes this running away is merely a means of escape. God provides a way of escape for us to run to so that we can bear the temptation and get through it. For 1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

#2. Pray to God so as not to be tempted.
Pray to God so as not to be tempted. It is part of the Lord’s prayer for you to pray so as not to be tempted into sin (Matthew 6:12). God will guide and protect you if you are serious in praying for this. "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:41). In fact, fasting will help you with this, as well. Being enslaved to sin is a demonic influence. While being enslaves to sin does not mean a Christian is possessed by a demon, we learn that certain demon possessions could not be driven out only by prayer and fasting (Matthew 17:21). So if demon possession at the most intense level can only be healed (by the casting out of the demon) by both prayer and fasting, then it is a sure bet that fasting and praying to overcome sin will also help a believer overcome sin (Which is a demonic influence).

#3. Obey God’s righteous ways.
Obey God’s righteous ways. The more you love God and love others and obey His Word and stay in His Word and pray, the more you will not even have a chance to sin or do the wrong thing. But the more you walk in God's Word by the Spirit you will not fulfill the lusts of flesh. "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16). "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14). "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:22).

#4. When you are tempted, quote Scripture.
When you are tempted, quote Scripture. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, He quoted Scripture to defeat the devil (Matthew 4:4) (Matthew 4:7) (Matthew 4:10). So when some specific sin is bothering you, find all the verses you can that are victory verses over that particular sin. A good general verse (Especially if you are tempted to look at women in lust if you find yourself in public around a lot of people) is, “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.” (Psalms 23:1). You can say these verses to yourself silently under your breath (with nobody hearing).

#5. Ask for prayer from other God fearing Christians.
Ask for prayer from other God fearing Christians or Godly Christians to help you to overcome certain sins. The Scriptures say, bear ye one another's burdens and thus fulfill the Law of Christ. So seek true fellowship and ask for their help. In 1 John 5, we see Christians praying for a believer who is struggling to overcome a sin (that they are confessing). "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16). A faithful Christian shall ask God to give their fellow Christian life (victory) in overcoming their sin that they are confessing (i.e. sin that is confessed is not a sin that leads unto death).

#6. Hide God’s Word in your heart.
Hide God’s Word in your heart. Memorize Scripture. David said he hid God’s Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord. "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." (Psalms 119:11).

#7. Confess of your sins.
Confess of your sins. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8.. Suffer in the Flesh:
1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin.

We should suffer in the flesh by:

1. Resisting during times of temptation.
2. Fasting.
3. Being persecuted for Christ’s sake.

Side Note:

New Heart:

Ask for a pure heart. King David, in Psalms 51:10, and Sermon on the Mount, Pure in heart will see God (Matthew 5:8). New Heart. Ask God to bring to attention any sin in our lives and to confess it.

Put on the whole armor of God.

Ephesians 6:11 - Put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand in the evil day.