Cursed...Cursed if You Do, Cursed if You Don't.......Cursed

pasifika

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Hi Pasifika,

Here are the verses you cited:

(CLV) Php 3:7
But things which were gain to me, these I have deemed a forfeit because of Christ.

(CLV) Php 3:8
But, to be sure, I am also deeming all to be a forfeit because of the |superiority of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, because of Whom I forfeited all, and am deeming it to be refuse, that I should be gaining Christ,

(CLV) Php 3:9
and may be |found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:

The verses you cited mention nothing about Paul not keeping the Torah.

Here are some verses that seem to indicate that Paul was keeping the Torah:

Acts 24:14 (NKJV) - "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

Acts 25:8 - while he answered for himself, "Neither against the Law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."

Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the Law will be justified;

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 7:12 - Therefore the Law [is] holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Romans 7:22 - For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man.

Romans 2:15
who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,

Acts 21:26
Then Paul, taking the men along on the next day, being purified together with them, had been in the sanctuary, publishing the full completion of the days of purification, till the approach present for each one of them was offered.

2 Tionothy 3:16
All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness,

Bear in mind that when Paul wrote this last verse; the Torah was the only scripture of the day.
Hello, this what Paul think of himself before he came to know Christ..Philippians 3:4-6...If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more, circumcise on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews in regards to the law, a Pharisee, as for zeal, persecuting the church, as for righteousness based on the Law, Faultless..

Paul thinks he is faultless in regards to the Law...but then the next 3 verses, (Philippians 3: 7-10), Paul said those things were gains to him has now consider a loss for the sake of knowing Christ his Lord...

Paul realized that the true Righteousness which that comes from God only comes through faith in Jesus Christ Not the Law...

The law and Prophets (entire Old Testament ) are just witnesses of God’s Righteousness...Romans 3:21-23

That Righteousness of God is Jesus Christ...

1John 2:1...My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father. Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
 
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pasifika

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(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.



(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.



(CLV) Ac 6:13
Besides, they put false witnesses on the stand, who say, "This man does not cease speaking, making declarations against this holy place and the law,

(CLV) Ac 6:14
for we have heard him saying that this Jesus the Nazarene will be demolishing this place and will be changing the customs which Moses gives over to us."



(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.
Galatians 3:17.." What I mean is this. The law introduced 430years later...

430 years later from...the initial covenant established by God with Abraham...
Please read Galatians 3 for more info...
 
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That Righteousness of God is Jesus Christ...
1John 2:1...My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father. Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

The righteousness of YHWH is YHWH's. The righteousness of Yahshua, is Yahshua's. The righteousness of Abraham is Abraham's

(CLV) Dt 6:25
So it shall come to be righteousness for us when we observe to do all this instruction before Yahweh our Elohim, just as He had enjoined on us.

(CLV) Ro 10:5
For Moses is writing of the righteousness which is of law, that a man who does the same shall be living in it.

(CLV) Ho 14:9
Who is wise shall also understand these things. These being understood, he shall also acknowledge them. For upright are the ways of Yahweh, And the righteous, they shall walk in them. Yet the transgressors, they shall be stumbled in them.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.
 
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pasifika

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Romans 8:4
so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit
Who is the Spirit?
2Corinthians 3:17..." Now the Lord is the Spirit.....
 
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pasifika

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The righteousness of YHWH is YHWH's. The righteousness of Yahshua, is Yahshua's. The righteousness of Abraham is Abraham's

(CLV) Dt 6:25
So it shall come to be righteousness for us when we observe to do all this instruction before Yahweh our Elohim, just as He had enjoined on us.

(CLV) Ro 10:5
For Moses is writing of the righteousness which is of law, that a man who does the same shall be living in it.

(CLV) Ho 14:9
Who is wise shall also understand these things. These being understood, he shall also acknowledge them. For upright are the ways of Yahweh, And the righteous, they shall walk in them. Yet the transgressors, they shall be stumbled in them.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.
The Righteousness we need is not our own righteousness but God's Righteousness, that righteousness is in Jesus Christ...2Corinthians 5:21..."God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him "we" might become the Righteousness of God ...
 
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Galatians 3:17.." What I mean is this. The law introduced 430years later...

Tell me. Exactly which law is Paul speaking of?

Excerpt: Paul on the Law Romans Chapter 6

Adam was given instruction ( H6680 Commandment).

(CLV) Gn 3:11
Then He asked: Who told you that you are naked unless you have eaten from the only tree that I instructed you by no means to eat from it?

He failed to keep the instruction. Therefore he sinned. (disobeyed the commandment). Therefore the consequences 'sin death' or the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2).

13 for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law;"

Clearly Adam's sin was counted. From this we can derive that the Law of Sin and Death came when Adam sinned.

14 nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be."

What is sin?

According to John it's transgression of the law.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Some believe that Adam had only one commandment to obey. Clearly this is not the case. Genesis 1:26-30 makes it clear that there had been more, since when man was created.

Many believe that YHWH's commandments weren't given until Moses; but clearly this is not the case.

In Genesis 4:7 we have our first explicit recording of a sacrifice for sin.

Cain Killed Able; and he was punished for murder. Why would YHWH punish Cain; if Cain didn't know that murder was a sin?

Even if for some reason, one believes that he didn't; after that incident, murder was known to be a sin.

YHWH repeats this command, along with other commandments; before he makes a covenant with Noah.

(CLV) Gn 9:6
Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human his blood shall be shed; for in the image of Elohim He has made humanity.

How did Noah know the difference between clean, and unclean, animals?

(CLV) Gn 7:2
Of every clean beast you shall take with you seven by seven, the sire and his dam, and of the beast that is not clean, of them pairs, the sire and his dam.

This refutes a claim that the law against murder began with Moses. What differed is that Moses received these laws in writing.

Adultery was unlawful before Moses. Abimelek knew it. Genesis 20:1–7

(CLV) Gn 39:9
He is no greater in this house than I am; and he has not kept back anything from me except you, because you are his wife. How should I do this great evil and sin against Elohim?

Stealing was against the law before Moses.

(CLV) Gn 30:33
My righteousness will answer ifor me, on the morrow day, when you come on my hire before you: Everyone that is not speckled or flecked among the goats and brown among the sheep, that one shall count with me as stolen.

Abraham kept YHWH's laws before Moses received them in writing.

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

Some would say that because the details of the law were not broken down in Genesis; that there was no torah before Moses. Clearly this is not the case.

The purpose of the Book of Genesis is obviously not to break down the details of the law. That is done in other books.
 
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The Righteousness we need is not our own righteousness but God's Righteousness, that righteousness is in Jesus Christ...2Corinthians 5:21..."God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him "we" might become the Righteousness of God ...

Do you understand the difference between, being something, and something being in you?
 
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pasifika

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Tell me. Exactly which law is Paul speaking of?

Excerpt: Paul on the Law Romans Chapter 6

Adam was given instruction ( H6680 Commandment).

(CLV) Gn 3:11
Then He asked: Who told you that you are naked unless you have eaten from the only tree that I instructed you by no means to eat from it?

He failed to keep the instruction. Therefore he sinned. (disobeyed the commandment). Therefore the consequences 'sin death' or the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2).

13 for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law;"

Clearly Adam's sin was counted. From this we can derive that the Law of Sin and Death came when Adam sinned.

14 nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be."

What is sin?

According to John it's transgression of the law.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Some believe that Adam had only one commandment to obey. Clearly this is not the case. Genesis 1:26-30 makes it clear that there had been more, since when man was created.

Many believe that YHWH's commandments weren't given until Moses; but clearly this is not the case.

In Genesis 4:7 we have our first explicit recording of a sacrifice for sin.

Cain Killed Able; and he was punished for murder. Why would YHWH punish Cain; if Cain didn't know that murder was a sin?

Even if for some reason, one believes that he didn't; after that incident, murder was known to be a sin.

YHWH repeats this command, along with other commandments; before he makes a covenant with Noah.

(CLV) Gn 9:6
Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human his blood shall be shed; for in the image of Elohim He has made humanity.

How did Noah know the difference between clean, and unclean, animals?

(CLV) Gn 7:2
Of every clean beast you shall take with you seven by seven, the sire and his dam, and of the beast that is not clean, of them pairs, the sire and his dam.

This refutes a claim that the law against murder began with Moses. What differed is that Moses received these laws in writing.

Adultery was unlawful before Moses. Abimelek knew it. Genesis 20:1–7

(CLV) Gn 39:9
He is no greater in this house than I am; and he has not kept back anything from me except you, because you are his wife. How should I do this great evil and sin against Elohim?

Stealing was against the law before Moses.

(CLV) Gn 30:33
My righteousness will answer ifor me, on the morrow day, when you come on my hire before you: Everyone that is not speckled or flecked among the goats and brown among the sheep, that one shall count with me as stolen.

Abraham kept YHWH's laws before Moses received them in writing.

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

Some would say that because the details of the law were not broken down in Genesis; that there was no torah before Moses. Clearly this is not the case.

The purpose of the Book of Genesis is obviously not to break down the details of the law. That is done in other books.
The law in Galatians 3 is the law that was added because of our transgression ...galatians 3:19...
Also in Romans 7:7...I would not have known what Sin was, had it not been for the law....
 
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pasifika

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Do you understand the difference between, being something, and something being in you?
Do you understand the difference between, being something, and something being in you?
Being something is the result of that something being in you...
If you are in Christ then you will act like him because He lives in you....

Colossians 1:27...."To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory....

1John 4:17.....in this world we are like Jesus....
 
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DamianWarS

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What do you make of this verse?


New King James Version
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

We need Christ to be sinless. Without Christ we are nothing.
 
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Paulus59

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(CLV) Ga 3:10
For whoever are of works of law are under a curse, for it is written that, Accursed is everyone who is not remaining in all things written in the scroll of the law to do them


Where is this written?


(CLV) Dt 27:26
Cursed be the one who is not carrying out all the words of this law to do them. Then all the people will say: Amen!


Interesting. Let's read on....the very next verse:


(CLV) Dt 28:1
It will come to be if you should hearken, yea hearken to the voice of Yahweh your Elohim, to observe and to do all His instructions which I am enjoining on you today, that Yahweh your Elohim will give you supremacy over all the nations of the earth.

(CLV) Dt 28:2
And all these blessings will come on you and overtake you in case you should hearken to the voice of Yahweh your Elohim.


Now either 'works of the law' is something different than observing YHWH's commands; or Paul is telling us not to listen to the voice of YHWH.

NO man can uphold the law and you're only cursed if you don't have Jesus as he upholds the law in HIS righteousness. Now we live by the law of Christ which is to love your neighbor as you love yourself and to love the Lord thy God with you all your heart, mind & soul - everything is bound up in God's perfect love which is HIS glorious righteousness in a nutshell. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." (Galatians 3:13)...........Amen!
 
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eternally thankful

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Hello, this what Paul think of himself before he came to know Christ..Philippians 3:4-6...If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more, circumcise on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews in regards to the law, a Pharisee, as for zeal, persecuting the church, as for righteousness based on the Law, Faultless..

Paul thinks he is faultless in regards to the Law...but then the next 3 verses, (Philippians 3: 7-10), Paul said those things were gains to him has now consider a loss for the sake of knowing Christ his Lord...

Paul realized that the true Righteousness which that comes from God only comes through faith in Jesus Christ Not the Law...

The law and Prophets (entire Old Testament ) are just witnesses of God’s Righteousness...Romans 3:21-23

That Righteousness of God is Jesus Christ...

1John 2:1...My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father. Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
In regards to phillipians 3:6, I like the way the NIV 1984 version put it:
As for zeal persecuting the church, as for legalistic righteousness, faultless

Saul the Pharisee, as other Pharisees could faultlessly obey what many term the legalistic law. But Saul the Pharisee could not faultlessly obey the moral law(rom ch7) Indeed, if there was no moral law, Jesus need not have died at calvary
 
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eternally thankful

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The Righteousness we need is not our own righteousness but God's Righteousness, that righteousness is in Jesus Christ...2Corinthians 5:21..."God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him "we" might become the Righteousness of God ...
People cannot understand how, if you remove a righteousness of obeying the law, this does not result in a licence to sin. The theological mind of man cannot fathom how this could be true. So, they will tell you, you have a righteousness of faith in Christ, but then add, this hinges on obeying some form of law or another. In other words, you remain righteous in God's sight, if you obey the law. Righteousness of faith in Christ, apart from obeying the law is the true offence of the cross:
Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision(ie law) why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offence of the cross has been abolished Gal5:11

Paul states: The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
What is it about the law that could be the true power of sin? What is written in the law, that is holy, just and good, or, the attached penalty for transgression?
Paul believed, if you are not under righteousness of obeying the law, sin would not be your master(rom6:14)v He did not say the law was abolished, he said:
Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone who believeth Rom10:4
So what is written in the moral law has not evidently been abolished according to Paul, but something about the law for the believer has changed, if it causes sin not to be their master under grace:
For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law(righteousness of obeying the law) but under grace(righteousness of faith in Christ) Rom6:14
 
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Randy777

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How do we understand this?

Romans 2:13
for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law
Context on which commandments

Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

Jesus-
You know the commandments: 'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.'"
And clearly taught to abstain from sexual immorality.


While our hearts are purified by faith we are not free to sin.

Those commandments have nothing to do with religious celebrations, sabbath day observance, circumcision of the flesh, dietary restrictions or sacrifices written in the law.

The Apostles rebuked wickedness and promoted righteousness with the chief works of righteousness being LOVE. As Paul wrote the importance is in faith expressing itself through love not works of the law such as circumcision.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Yahshua's message was controversial. Nothing has changed.
True, but consider who found His message controversial, the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes because He exposed them. He said:"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! “You’re like dead men’s tombs, whitewashed sepulchers that are painted without blemish on the surface but inside are filled with dead men’s bones. You clean the outside of the platter, but the other side, the inner side, is filthy. You do everything possible to hide that impurity, that grime, and that filthiness from public view. You pretend to be righteous, and you major in that pretense of being righteous.”

I am afraid your righteousness in the law must exceed the attempt by these people in order to be made perfect by the law.
 
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zoidar

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True, but consider who found His message controversial, the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes because He exposed them. He said:"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! “You’re like dead men’s tombs, whitewashed sepulchers that are painted without blemish on the surface but inside are filled with dead men’s bones. You clean the outside of the platter, but the other side, the inner side, is filthy. You do everything possible to hide that impurity, that grime, and that filthiness from public view. You pretend to be righteous, and you major in that pretense of being righteous.”

I am afraid your righteousness in the law must exceed the attempt by these people in order to be made perfect by the law.

Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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(CLV) Ga 3:10
For whoever are of works of law are under a curse, for it is written that, Accursed is everyone who is not remaining in all things written in the scroll of the law to do them


Where is this written?


(CLV) Dt 27:26
Cursed be the one who is not carrying out all the words of this law to do them. Then all the people will say: Amen!


Interesting. Let's read on....the very next verse:


(CLV) Dt 28:1
It will come to be if you should hearken, yea hearken to the voice of Yahweh your Elohim, to observe and to do all His instructions which I am enjoining on you today, that Yahweh your Elohim will give you supremacy over all the nations of the earth.

(CLV) Dt 28:2
And all these blessings will come on you and overtake you in case you should hearken to the voice of Yahweh your Elohim.


Now either 'works of the law' is something different than observing YHWH's commands; or Paul is telling us not to listen to the voice of YHWH.

Moses addresses the nation of Israel in the whole book of Deuteronomy. As part of the national law, they must obey the outward, external form of the law for God's blessings, or they will receive the enumerated curses for their disobedience.

In Galatians, Paul directly attacks the Christians' lapses back into depending on their works (for example, the rite of circumcision) in order to get God's approval. He then goes on to call them back to faith by grace alone to depend on Christ's death and resurrection to get God's approval. Jesus carried the curse of the law to the cross to take it on himself and to give believers his right standing (righteousness) before God the Father.

That's how the two passages are different.
 
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Who is your master?

Who is yours?

(CLV) Jn 13:13
You/ are shouting to Me `Teacher!' and `Lord!' and you are saying ideally, for I am.

(CLV) Jn 13:14
If, then, I, the Lord (Master) and the Teacher, wash your feet, you also ought to be washing one another's feet.

(CLV) Jn 13:15
For an example have I given you, that, according as I do to you, you also may be doing.
 
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