Annihilationism: Does Rev. 20:10 teach that some demons will be tormented forever?

Der Alte · Mar 5, 2020

1213 said:
There are Sheol or Hades and Gehenna. Gehenna, or the fire lake is the second death, permanent end. Sheol or Hades is not. And before second death, it seems some people are waiting in Sheol or Hades, which also will be thrown to the fire lake in the end.
…The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15
Some say hell is actually wrong translation for the fire lake. That is why it is perhaps better to say just that in the end, some are thrown to that lake and the lake burns forever. But by what I know, there is no Biblical support for the idea that one lives or feels eternally anything in the lake. Especially because eternal life is promised for righteous only.
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death [not life], but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

You didn't read my post did you? I quoted 3 passages of scripture which show the unrighteous dead speaking, moving etc. Gehenna and hades are two names for the same place. Ge hinnom which means valley of Hinnom is written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as gehenna and sheol is written as hades.
Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the NT, if He had meant eternal death in Matt 25:46 that is what He would have said.

Der Alte · Mar 5, 2020

Josheb said:
And 21% of the time it can mean the cessation of existence. The truth is much of what you list can be understood as the cessation of existence so I don't knw where the idea of "79%" comes from. If death is dead in the end then all those mentions of dead, death, and die count toward cessation of existence and you no longer have "79%"...

This part of your argument is nonsensical. It is appointed unto man once to die after that the judgement. Everyone, 100%, dies but not everyone experiences "apollumi." So nothing you said changes the 79%. Not being included in the 21% does not mean that person will certainly be annihilated. Even if you reviewed every verse in the 21% you would not be able to state which ones would be annihilated, that is God's decision.

nolidad · Mar 5, 2020

mmksparbud said:
God gives eternal life as a gift to the saved not to the lost. Nowhere is there any verse that says God gives eternal life to the lost which is what you need in order to keep living in hell. Also. only the saved get to have access to the tree of life and the water of life---not even Adam and Eve could live eternally without the tree of life.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

I don't think we will spend eternity feeding the lost our leftovers from the tree of life to keep them going.

Well you can spend time in flights of fancy wondering HOW it all works when God did not say the hows. But the bible is clear that the lost will spend forever in torment and have no rest day or night forever!

Josheb · Mar 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
This part of your argument is nonsensical. It is appointed unto man once to die after that the judgement. Everyone, 100%, dies but not everyone experiences "apollumi." So nothing you said changes the 79%. Not being included in the 21% does not mean that person will certainly be annihilated. Even if you reviewed every verse in the 21% you would not be able to state which ones would be annihilated, that is God's decision.

Already addressed those concerns.

Der Alte · Mar 5, 2020

Josheb said:
Already addressed those concerns.

How could you have already addressed an argument I only made an hour or so ago.While you are in attack mode feel free to review my post where I quoted BDAG and show me how specifically I was in error.

Josheb · Mar 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
How could you have already addressed an argument I only made an hour or so ago.While you are in attack mode feel free to review my post where I quoted BDAG and show me how specifically I was in error.

How could you not realize the matter was already addressed preemptively and post as if it hadn't been? If you do not have something op-relevant to add to the discussion then you and I are done. Should not have to post that twice.

No attack mode required.

mmksparbud · Mar 5, 2020

nolidad said:
Well you can spend time in flights of fancy wondering HOW it all works when God did not say the hows. But the bible is clear that the lost will spend forever in torment and have no rest day or night forever!

This is not flights of fancy, this is the word of God:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Mar_10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh_6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh_12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Joh_17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh_17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Rom_5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Ti_6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1Ti_6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jn_5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Jud_1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Not one verse says eternal life is given to the wicked.

Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh_4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev_22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev_22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Please state the verses that say the wicked get to eat of the tree of life and drink of the water of life in the lake of fire.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Der Alte · Mar 5, 2020

mmksparbud said:
... Not one verse says eternal life is given to the wicked.
...
Please state the verses that say the wicked get to eat of the tree of life and drink of the water of life in the lake of fire.

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9)Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.
Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20)They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Jesus speaking about a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

summerville · Mar 5, 2020

redleghunter said:
Evidence for this?

The mark of the Beast was Caesar's head on a coin. Remember? Render unto Caesar...

Butch5 · Mar 5, 2020

Warrior89 said:
Hi everyone. I'm new to the forum. I have been researching annihilationism, and I had a question about that. For some background, this article more or less summarizes why I lean in that direction:

https://edwardfudge.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/JETS_final_end_wicked.pdf

(FYI: Though not unique to annihilationism, I'm personally assuming something of a premillenial viewpoint, with a literal future Antichrist.)

My question is about one of the big problem verses for annihilationism. Revelation 20:10 says:

10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is on the heels of Revelation 19:20:

And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence[e] had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

At first this seems straightforward. However, other passages indicates that Jesus/God actually kills the Antichrist. This would cause an apparent contradiction with the verses above regarding the "beast" being tormented forever and ever.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. (2 Thess. 2:8)

Which cross-references to Isaiah 11:4:

but with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked.

This is also indicated by the sword that comes out of Jesus' mouth in Revelation 19.

Other verses also seem to indicate that God kills the Antichrist. Daniel 7:11 says:

“I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

This is similar to Revelation, albeit with a very noticeable contradiction/difference. In Revelation, the beast is thrown alive into the lake of fire. But here, the beast is killed and burned with fire.

Isaiah 14 also talks about the taunt that will be lifted up against the "king of Babylon." (For reasons I won't go into here, he sounds remarkably like the Antichrist. Since the Antichrist is ruler of a world government at some point, he is definitely leader of Iraq and wherever "mystery babylon" is, at least for some time.) Here is an excerpt from Isaiah 14:

All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
each in his own tomb;[d]
19 but you are cast out, away from your grave,
like a loathed branch,
clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword,
who go down to the stones of the pit,
like a dead body trampled underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
because you have destroyed your land,
you have slain your people.

So if the Antichrist is killed, but also tormented forever, then how do we reconcile this apparent contradiction? I propose a possible solution that is not novel, but possible. Revelation 17:8-11 says:

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. 9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.

Some commentators believe that the "beast" is a demon that embodies the Antichrist, empowering him to heal his mortal wound. See also Revelation 13:3:

One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.

This is also why the beast is an 8th king, who "belongs to the seven." As a result, the beast is a demon, because he comes up out of the "bottomless pit." But the man whose body he has is not a demon.

Furthermore, it seems that the "evil trinity" has demons associated with each of them.

And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. (Rev. 16:3)

So which is it? Is the beast "killed?" Or is he tortured forever? Or is his demonic counterpart tormented forever, whereas the man is not?Similarly, are demons anreallyinihilated? Or are they tormented forever?

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to comment!

I agree with you about the the false prophet and beast being inhabited by demons. However, this passage only speaks of three. So it wouldn't impact annihilation. However, the key to solving the problem is that the Greek word, aionios, translated forever, doesn't mean forever. It means an age. so, they will be tormented for an age. How long that age is depends of the context. We also know that it's not forever because the Lake of Fire will one day again be made Holy to the Lord.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:38-40 KJV)

mmksparbud · Mar 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9)Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.
Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20)They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Jesus speaking about a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Lazarus and the rich man is a parable and we've discussed that before. It isn't saying what you believe it does. There is still not one verse that states that God gives eternal life to the wicked. It is a gift to the saved. Eternal life always is stated as a reward to the saved, never as a reward to the wicked. They will be ashes just as Sodom and Gomorrah, which it clearly says is an example of what happens to the wicked. Again---God told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would die, not burn in hell forever. It is clearly stated the wages of sin is death---not eternal life. And the wicked in Rev are being tormented in front of the all angels and the Lamb---Jesus and all the angels are not going sit around for eternity watching people being tormented. If God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, you think He is going to sit around and watch them being tormented throughout eternity?---You might, I do not. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life The wicked are not given access to the Tree of Life. We've been through all this several times over, and I've given the verses also. I know what you stand firm on and you know what I stand firm on---I basically don't read your posts anymore, I know what you're going to say, ,you can ignore mine---no need to rehash the same arguments.

Der Alte · Mar 5, 2020

Butch5 said:
I agree with you about the the false prophet and beast being inhabited by demons. However, this passage only speaks of three. So it wouldn't impact annihilation. However, the key to solving the problem is that the Greek word, aionios, translated forever, doesn't mean forever. It means an age. so, they will be tormented for an age. How long that age is depends of the context. We also know that it's not forever because the Lake of Fire will one day again be made Holy to the Lord.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:38-40 KJV)

That the word "aionios" sometimes refers to things which are not eternal does not change the meaning of the word. That is known as hyperbole such as when Jesus told His followers "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26. If taken literally that would violate the commandment "Honor your mother and father."
.....In twenty four [24] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by pairing or contrasting it with other adjectives or adjectival phrases. In 9 of these verses Jesus defines "aionios" as "eternal." In 10 of these verses Pajl defines "aionios" as "eternal."
I have been posting this study here for a few years it has never been refuted.
List of verses cited:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, John 3:36 , John 4:14, John 6:27
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
…..In 9 of these verses Jesus has defined “aionios” as eternal. In 10 verses Paul has defined “aionios” as eternal.

[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]

In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8] 1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, which is is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[Character limit. Continued next post.]

Der Alte · Mar 5, 2020

[Previous post continued]

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[18]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[19]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[20]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.

In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[24]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[25]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent

"The double negative signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally."

Butch5 · Mar 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
[Previous post continued]

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[18]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[19]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[20]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[24]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[25]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent

"The double negative signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally."

How many times are you going to post this. I've already shown your reasoning is wrong. I'll show another one. You said,

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

These people are alive. They won't live forever, therefore the statement they have no rest won't last forever, they will die.

Der Alte · Mar 5, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Lazarus and the rich man is a parable and we've discussed that before. It isn't saying what you believe it does. There is still not one verse that states that God gives eternal life to the wicked. It is a gift to the saved. Eternal life always is stated as a reward to the saved, never as a reward to the wicked. They will be ashes just as Sodom and Gomorrah, which it clearly says is an example of what happens to the wicked. Again---God told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would die, not burn in hell forever. It is clearly stated the wages of sin is death---not eternal life. And the wicked in Rev are being tormented in front of the all angels and the Lamb---Jesus and all the angels are not going sit around for eternity watching people being tormented. If God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, you think He is going to sit around and watch them being tormented throughout eternity?---You might, I do not. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life The wicked are not given access to the Tree of Life. We've been through all this several times over, and I've given the verses also. I know what you stand firm on and you know what I stand firm on---I basically don't read your posts anymore, I know what you're going to say, ,you can ignore mine---no need to rehash the same arguments.

As long as UR-ites post the same arguments over and over and over I will continue to refute them. Evidently some folks think that repeating the same arguments over and over will somehow make the arguments more convincing.
Very conveniently some folks choose to consider Lazarus and the rich man as a parable, by doing so it seems to support their assumptions/presuppositions.
All ECF who quoted/referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.
As you have noted you know what I stand firm on and may I point out my position has never been disproved.
My primary audience is not you but the people on the fringes thinking about leaving or joining a heterodox group where they may never hear the opposing views.

Der Alte · Mar 5, 2020

Butch5 said:
How many times are you going to post this. I've already shown your reasoning is wrong. I'll show another one. You said,

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
These people are alive. They won't live forever, therefore the statement they have no rest won't last forever, they will die.

No you have not proved anything. Prove that they will die and not live forever. The devil, the beast and the false prophet, who is a human being, are thrown into the lake of fire and tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20;10
Now address the other 23 verses. You might get lucky and actually refute some. But I would not count on it.

mmksparbud · Mar 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
As long as UR-ites post the same arguments over and over and over I will continue to refute them. Evidently some folks think that repeating the same arguments over and over will somehow make the arguments more convincing.
Very conveniently some folks choose to consider Lazarus and the rich man as a parable, by doing so it seems to support their assumptions/presuppositions.
All ECF who quoted/referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.
As you have noted you know what I stand firm on and may I point out my position has never been disproved.
My primary audience is not you but the people on the fringes thinking about leaving or joining a heterodox group where they may never hear the opposing views.

By Ur-ites do you mean Universalists? I am not one. You should know that by now. I am annahilist.

It is not a convenience to say Lazarus was a parable---

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

The Pharisees were there and Jesus only spoke in parables when they were around. He explained His parable to the disciple's only when they were alone if they had not understood it.

Mar_4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

It was a parable and it doesn't matter how many people take it as literal. It was directed at the Pharisees, they were stubborn, and Jesus had raised a real Lazarus from the dead and they would still not believe.
I wasn't saying for you not to keep repeating, I also have to keep repeating. Just that WE do not have to go ever the same arguments. Different ones, OK.

hedrick · Mar 5, 2020

The discussion has morphed into people, not demons. However I don't see that the issue is that different. 1 Cor 15 24-26 seems to say that powers, authorities, and death will be destroyed. Rev 20:10 seems consistent with that if you think, as I do, that in the end the pit vanishes, having done its work.

While I think 1 Cor 15 teaches that all people will end up
"all in all" that doesn't seem to apply to "powers." I'm not so convinced that demons are fully personal. There is certainly a kind of force to evil that transcends individuals. But I think treating it as a full person is giving it too much credit. But whatever it is, I believe it's destroyed.

Der Alte · Mar 5, 2020

mmksparbud said:
By Ur-ites do you mean Universalists? I am not one. You should know that by now. I am annahilist.
It is not a convenience to say Lazarus was a parable---
Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
The Pharisees were there and Jesus only spoke in parables when they were around. He explained His parable to the disciple's only when they were alone if they had not understood it.

If Jesus was directing His words to the Pharisees why does it say ""the Pharisees ...also heard." If Jesus was talking to them of course they heard. Vs. 16:1 and 17:1 both say Jesus was talking to His disciples the Pharisees happened to overhear.
Lazarus and the rich man is not introduced as a parable and Jesus does not explain it later to His disciples. Lazarus does not have the structure of a parable. Parable is from the Greek parabolos, to lay beside. To explain something unknown by comparison with something known. "The kingdom of heaven is like unto..." There is no such comparison in Lazarus and the rich man. The only thing known is that two men lived and died

Mar_4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

When Jesus was talking to His disciples, as He was in Luke 16:1 -17:1, He spoke in plain language

It was a parable and it doesn't matter how many people take it as literal. It was directed at the Pharisees, they were stubborn, and Jesus had raised a real Lazarus from the dead and they would still not believe.
I wasn't saying for you not to keep repeating, I also have to keep repeating. Just that WE do not have to go ever the same arguments. Different ones, OK.

Nonsense. It does not matter what you say about Lazarus and the rich man. The ECF are the only historical evidence we have of the faith and practice of the early post disciple church. It will take more than hand waving to dismiss the ECF.

hedrick · Mar 5, 2020

Doesn’t Father Abraham presiding over heaven make it pretty clear he’s using a cultural image to make a point? When people refer to arrivinvg bsefore Peter at the pearly gates, they are usually not thinking of a scenario that is actually going to happen just that way.

Annihilationism: Does Rev. 20:10 teach that some demons will be tormented forever?

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