Can You Be a Christian and Deny the Trinity?

Rescued One · Mar 4, 2020

Need answers said:
I looked up some scripture about knowing God. I didn't find any about a trinity though. Those who love and do good know God.

Not everyone who looks up scripture knows God. Not everyone who loves and helps the poor and oppressed knows God.

Rescued One · Mar 4, 2020

Need answers said:
Whats wrong with seeing them as separate people? Why does Jesus need to be the Father?

Q. Who believes Jesus is the Father?

A. Modalists.

Rescued One · Mar 4, 2020

My Experience

I was a Mormon for years and years. My so-called conversion had taken place in 2 weeks time during which time I was urged to be baptized. Approximately fourteen months afterwards I was told that I should become a goddess someday!

WHAT???

It was something that never made sense to me. It seemed pagan to me.
To tell the truth, I never really got over that. Why had it been kept secret???

Strangely, as if in a trance, I stayed Mormon for years and years. I had read the Book of Mormon, avoided coffee, tea, tobacco, and alcohol. I found it difficult to read the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. At long last, in my misery I began to read my Bible. I prayed that the True God would teach me truth. Joseph Smith had said the Triune God was a monster!

I told God I didn't know Who He was/is. My journey had begun. :clap:

It was an amazing journey. I still didn't know that God is a Trinity.
That knowledge came from seeking and searching the Bible. Life is so much better now!

Gregory Thompson · Mar 4, 2020

☦Marius☦ said:
The anathema originated with Paul, not the creeds

It actually originated from Pharisee theology stating that those who didn't get it, were under a heavy curse. Paul stated that let those who speak another gospel be under the heavy curse. However, pronouncing the heavy curse onto someone is something Paul did not do.

This is similar to the statement if someone is committing a sin unto death, you do not need to pray about that. It's just a leave them be, the forward action simply isn't there.

Jamdoc · Mar 5, 2020

redleghunter said:
From Grace to You Ministries:

I would answer, "No." If you don’t believe in the Trinity, then you don’t understand who God is. You may say the word “God” but you don’t understand His nature. Second, you couldn’t possibly understand who Christ is—that He is God in human flesh. The Incarnation of Christ is an essential component of the biblical gospel, as John 1:1-14 and many other biblical passages make clear. To deny the Trinity is to deny the Incarnation. And to deny the Incarnation is to wrongly understand the true gospel.

In saying that, I realize that such an answer is going to not only impact people that you may have witnessed to (like Mormons), but it also applies to some in the broader Pentecostal movement, called United Pentecostals or "Jesus-Only" Pentecostals. Such individuals hold to a kind of modalism, where God is sometimes in the mode of the Father or the mode of the Son or the mode of the Spirit, but He’s never all three at the same time. That too is a deficient and heretical view of the Trinity. It denies the distinct Personhood of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The same question sometimes arises about the virgin birth. I think it is possible for a person to become a Christian before learning about the details of the virgin birth, though that person would certainly assume that Jesus Christ must have had a unique birth since He is both God and man. But, if someone knows about the virgin birth and says, “I deny the virgin birth,” then he is simultaneously denying the deity of Christ, and also the Trinity. Such a person betrays the fact that they do not understand the gospel, and therefore cannot have truly been saved.
Can You Be a Christian and Deny the Trinity?

1 John 4:3 says no.
and I'll clarify that I mean the verse from the KJV version, I moused over what version they used and it changes the meaning of the verse..

The KJV says:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You need to believe that there is at least a God the Father, who sent Jesus, who is the Son of God, and is the incarnate of God (what they mean by God come in the flesh, that He is God, in a human body) Not just a powerful prophet, not just a man with a lot of faith and blessed by God, but God Himself on earth, in a human body, as His name was prophesied to be "Immanuel", and will be fulfilled at His second coming. The name means "God with us". Jesus was, is, and will be God with us.
That is quite literally what it means to be Christian.
Ultimately believing those 2 things, you're going to believe in the third personhood, the Holy Ghost as well.

☦Marius☦ · Mar 5, 2020

Michael Collum said:
Paul stated that let those who speak another gospel be under the heavy curse. However, pronouncing the heavy curse onto someone is something Paul did not do.

How is there any difference between stating that those who teach another gospel are under a curse, and pronouncing a heavy curse? Let's not forget Paul was instructing the church in proper procedure here, not just rambling. He was teaching how the church should react to heresy, just as he said to cast those who sin and teach false things from the assembly. It is the same concept. Furthermore Christ gave the Apostles the right to bind and loose, a right passed down to the elders through apostolic succession.

Gregory Thompson · Mar 5, 2020

☦Marius☦ said:
How is there any difference between stating that those who teach another gospel are under a curse, and pronouncing a heavy curse? Let's not forget Paul was instructing the church in proper procedure here, not just rambling. He was teaching how the church should react to heresy, just as he said to cast those who sin and teach false things from the assembly. It is the same concept. Furthermore Christ gave the Apostles the right to bind and loose, a right passed down to the elders through apostolic succession.

That's because the curse is automatic. It's different when you make it happen yourselves.

☦Marius☦ · Mar 5, 2020

So the curse is an automatic response to accepting heresy... Then why is it controvertial for a church member to state it matter o factly? If a person is a heretic they shouldn't be in communion with the church. Unity of the assembly is an important part of what Paul teaches. Anathemization is a public announcement about who to follow and who to not so that the church can know who to follow. Simple as that. Tell me what do you think the Church should have done with the likes of Arius who was causing a massive rift within Christendom leading to war? They had already let him back into the Church after the first council--yet he still decided instead to teach that Christ was not God, and people were following him. So what is you better solution to how the Church should deal with that kind of thing?

eternally thankful · Mar 5, 2020

Can you be a Christian and deny an equal trinity I assume is the question. Can you be a Christian without terming Christ God himself? I guess if the answer is no, then people may believe they can be condemned for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth. For a person could read Christ's statements that the Father is the only true God and greater than the Son, believe them and then be condemned for doing so. Doesn't sound right to me
But if there is one thing I have learnt on these kind of websites, the majority view on them is not the majority view of those who attend churches(i'm speaking of protestant churches, not been to more than a couple of RC services)

Need answers · Mar 5, 2020

☦Marius☦ said:
The term "catholic" was coined by St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was one of the children who came to Christ during his ministry and was one of John's disciples, selected to be the third Elder of the Church of Antioch. He also wrote about Communion being the actual body and blood of Christ (before his Martyrdom).

I dont agree with him on that.

Need answers · Mar 5, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Not everyone who looks up scripture knows God. Not everyone who loves and helps the poor and oppressed knows God.

Sure, i was just saying though.

Gregory Thompson · Mar 5, 2020

☦Marius☦ said:
So the curse is an automatic response to accepting heresy... Then why is it controvertial for a church member to state it matter o factly? If a person is a heretic they shouldn't be in communion with the church. Unity of the assembly is an important part of what Paul teaches. Anathemization is a public announcement about who to follow and who to not so that the church can know who to follow. Simple as that. Tell me what do you think the Church should have done with the likes of Arius who was causing a massive rift within Christendom leading to war? They had already let him back into the Church after the first council--yet he still decided instead to teach that Christ was not God, and people were following him. So what is you better solution to how the Church should deal with that kind of thing?

I'm currently working on a solution for that

The chasms between traditions and denominations in the spiritual realm originate from this.

To analyze your reasoning, it seems the church acted out of fear, and was unable to demonstrate the truth with faith. Only by casting people out was it possible to stop the heresies. However, this would mean that the church had already regressed to the same state as those who crucified Christ.

I think the solution in the end is spiritual maturity, we need more of it.

There is only so much maturity one can accomplish with themselves and God, there is an implied level of maturity when the whole faith becomes one. Paul spoke of this by saying you are carnal because you say I am of Paul, and I am of Apollos but was Paul crucified for you? Etc.

So when the faith can become one again, there will be that level of maturity that was available in the beginning of the faith that gave space for the greatest and the least in the kingdom to perform some kind of miracle, some kind of healing - even if it was not their gift, for all pray, all lay on hands etc.

In John 17 I see the solution when Jesus said, may they be one as we are so the whole world knows that you have sent me. Having the trinity type oneness within our congregations as a parable is the best defense against heresies.

Der Alte · Mar 5, 2020

☦Marius☦ said:
The term "catholic" was coined by St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was one of the children who came to Christ during his ministry and was one of John's disciples, selected to be the third Elder of the Church of Antioch. He also wrote about Communion being the actual body and blood of Christ (before his Martyrdom).

The term "Catholic" is derived from the Greek words καθ ολης/kath oles, "according to the whole." This phrase occurs six times in the NT Luke 4:14, Luke 8:39, Luke 23:5 Acts of the Apostles 9:31, Acts of the Apostles 9:42, Acts of the Apostles 10:37

Need answers · Mar 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
The term "Catholic" is derived from the Greek words καθ ολης/kath oles, "according to the whole." This phrase occurs six times in the NT Luke 4:14, Luke 8:39, Luke 23:5 Acts of the Apostles 9:31, Acts of the Apostles 9:42, Acts of the Apostles 10:37

But Catholics are not the whole church.

Der Alte · Mar 5, 2020

Need answers said:
But Catholics are not the whole church.

I agree, even if they think they are. The term did not originally refer to the church with its headquarters in Rome, but the church universal, all believers.

Kenobi · Mar 5, 2020

The word "Trinity" may not be in the Bible, but the principle is there

Who rose Jesus from the dead? Was it the Father? The Son? Or the Holy Spirit?

Jesus said it was himself.

“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

John 10:17‭-‬18 NKJV

Paul said in Romans 6:4 it was the Father

Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:4 NKJV

Paul said not very much later in the same letter:

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Romans 8:11 NKJV

☦Marius☦ · Mar 5, 2020

Need answers said:
I dont agree with him on that.

You can believe it or not, but Antioch was the head of the church at that time and Ignatius was hand picked by the apostles and other elders to take that role and lead. We are commanded by Paul to follow the Church elders and obey their teachings that they have passed down.

Der Alter said:
I agree, even if they think they are. The term did not originally refer to the church with its headquarters in Rome, but the church universal, all believers.

You are correct. But the term catholic does imply unity in faith, which those outside the apostolic church do not have. Rome doesn't matter and it didn't have the connection to the word catholic until the great schism, what does matter is obeying the apostles who commanded us to keep unified and obey the traditions they passed down.

☦Marius☦ · Mar 5, 2020

Michael Collum said:
I'm currently working on a solution for that

The chasms between traditions and denominations in the spiritual realm originate from this.

To analyze your reasoning, it seems the church acted out of fear, and was unable to demonstrate the truth with faith. Only by casting people out was it possible to stop the heresies. However, this would mean that the church had already regressed to the same state as those who crucified Christ.

I think the solution in the end is spiritual maturity, we need more of it.

There is only so much maturity one can accomplish with themselves and God, there is an implied level of maturity when the whole faith becomes one. Paul spoke of this by saying you are carnal because you say I am of Paul, and I am of Apollos but was Paul crucified for you? Etc.

So when the faith can become one again, there will be that level of maturity that was available in the beginning of the faith that gave space for the greatest and the least in the kingdom to perform some kind of miracle, some kind of healing - even if it was not their gift, for all pray, all lay on hands etc.

In John 17 I see the solution when Jesus said, may they be one as we are so the whole world knows that you have sent me. Having the trinity type oneness within our congregations as a parable is the best defense against heresies.

You are criticizing Paul and the Apostles as much as the early church. Just look at the first council of Jerusalem in acts. They all settled on an opinion, and those who did not were no longer allowed within the assembly. Theorize and look for solutions all you want. But the Apostles made it clear.

GaveMeJoy · Mar 6, 2020

public hermit said:
Do you suppose MacArthur would argue that those Christians prior to Nicaea were exempt out of ignorance?

They weren’t ignorant. Christ, the epistles, and apostles understood and taught the trinity it just didn’t have the name we use today. What you call it is irrelevant

GaveMeJoy · Mar 6, 2020

redleghunter said:
The doctrines from the councils confirmed the true Nature and Person of Jesus Christ, God the Son.

The councils were irrelevant for the purpose of salvation, they were groups of men who were fallible. Arias had large portions of the church in full blown heresy...Christ taught the trinity and so did the epistles way before some people named it.

Can You Be a Christian and Deny the Trinity?

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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Watching and Praying Always

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