Marian Apparitions?

Markie Boy

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Does Orthodoxy veiw any Catholic Marian apparitions as legit?

It seems Orthodox Marian apparitions don't speak and give long messages - is this accurate?

Not sure if I should ask this here - and if not feel free to delete or move.

Also - replies from Orthodox Christians only please.
 

JohnTh

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Does Orthodoxy veiw any Catholic Marian apparitions as legit?

Some of them. This happens because of the piety of the people involved and not because of their faith (no offense intended).

It seems Orthodox Marian apparitions don't speak and give long messages - is this accurate?

Oh, yes - definitely. If she speaks, she speaks very little.
 
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Lukaris

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I would say in light of the godless, anti Christianity of the 1st Portuguese Republic, there must be something to the phenomenon of Fatima. As far as the interpretations, I would think the Orthodox response would be to not comment.

First Portuguese Republic - Wikipedia
 
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Euodius

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While it's not our place to comment. Some, like Fatima, have suspicious links to intelligence operations. With Fatima, why is nothing said of the exporting of communism (by Britain and other powers) into Russia? Why is that said to be the 'Russian' error? And why does she speak of the "conversion of Russia" to Roman Catholicism? These features are suspect and Fatima was probably created as propaganda.
 
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rakovsky

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While it's not our place to comment. Some, like Fatima, have suspicious links to intelligence operations.
Can you please provide some details on this? I wasn't able to find any info on this theory online.

EOs tend to be skeptical about modern vision claims and test them theologically. Since Fatima preached the conversion of Russian to Catholicism, Orthodoxy would not not consider it to be a real apparition of the Theotokos.
 
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Markie Boy

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I have heard it said that Fatima preached conversion back to Orthodoxy actually in one talk I listened to here: an orthodox perspective of roman - Bing video

The whole sun dancing in the sky thing is pretty hard to dismiss - as it seems it was seen by many, even atheists - for miles around.

And if anyone knows where I can find more music like in the opening I'd be interested!
 
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TheLostCoin

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How about the big one - Fatima??
I would listen to Fr. Matt on this one and not spend your time judging.


In the past though, I've found the "three secrets" of Sister Lucia aspect of Fatima, and Sister Lucia herself, to be suspect. I say nothing about the 1917 apparition itself nor of the other children.

About 30 years after the Fatima apparitions (the miracles happened in 1917, the secrets were published in 1943), Sister Lucia published these secrets.

"The Third Secret" which so many Trad Cats have huddled around about and have speculated countless theories on has been explained inconsistently by Sister Lucia; if you listen to her own words around the time of publication, and those who have claimed to hear it from her / those who have read the secret, it's very clear that the Third Secret was Apocalyptic in nature that spoke about incoming disasters at either a spiritual / church level or physical chastisement from God for the godlessness of the 20th century. Sister Lucia said herself that the Third Secret was contained in Revelation 12.

However, in the 90s / 2000s before she died, she gives a diametrically opposed interpretation that simply predicted Pope John Paul II's assassination attempt and the Soviet persecution of Catholics. It's inconsistent such that there are websites and sources that argue the Vatican killed her and replaced her with a double.

Two Sister Lucys of Fatima? Sister Lucia of Fatima

It should be said that she was very old at that point and might have been simply mentally encumbered.

Sister Lucia also said in her own memoirs that during the Canonical Inquiry, she felt the Holy Spirit compelled her to remain silent in regards to the Secrets, because, and I quote, she "obeys the aspirations of the Holy Spirit first before the aspirations of the Holy Spirit's representatives."


Despite these inconsistencies, I want to make it clear that I'm not saying anything about Sister Lucia herself, her spiritual life, or even the validity of Fatima, and especially, especially towards Catholics who have great devotion to the Theotokos through Fatima.

In fact, it might very well be legitimate and open to some kind of Orthodox interpretation, but these are inconsistencies I've pointed out in the past that can't help me but raise an eyebrow.


I do think there is something kind of mystical with Fatima that suggests some of it may be legitimate, even within Sister Lucia's own "Three Secrets" thing. Some of the imagery of the Vatican's own published Third Secret does parallel some of the imagery in Saint John of Kronstadt's own apocalyptic vision, assuming that either is legitimate.

That's not to mention the uncanny fact that Revelation 12's "swiping of the stars," typologically, may very well be referring to a mass apostasy of Bishops, as you often find in Patristic writings the Bishropic associated with "guiding lights;" Saint Gregory the Dialogist himself calls Bishops stars of the sky which guide those at sea, and Saint John Chrysostom is alleged to have said that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of priests, and the lamposts of that road are the skulls of Bishops.


So in the end, I don't know. But I highly recommend to you, OP, that you obey Christ's own words. Matthew 6:25-34
 
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rakovsky

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I have heard it said that Fatima preached conversion back to Orthodoxy actually in one talk I listened to here: an orthodox perspective of roman - Bing video

The whole sun dancing in the sky thing is pretty hard to dismiss - as it seems it was seen by many, even atheists - for miles around.

According to Sister Lúcia, the Virgin Mary requested the consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart on several occasions...
...
In August 1941 Sister Lúcia wrote her third memoir in which she described the apparition of 13 July 1917. She said that the Virgin told them:

"God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The [First World] war is going to end; if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that He is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace. If not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

Consecration of Russia - Wikipedia
Orthodoxy seems open on whether Mary sinned. Some Church fathers thought that she did because of the time when Christ rebuked her at the wedding and the time when the crowd or his family thought that he was crazy for preaching and Jesus responded in the Gospels by asking rhetorically, Who is my mother, brother and sister?

The immaculate conception is an RC teaching whereby supposedly Mary had to be born sinless or else Christ would have been born in Adam's sin, so supposedly Mary was miraculously born sinless herself.

The vision is referring to the Pope with so much importance that the EOs would disagree with or be pretty skeptical about. What is the "Church" in the vision? It is probably the RC Church, not the EO Church, based on how the Portuguese audience would have thought of the "Church". So for a Portuguese Catholic audience at a time when relations were pretty strongly cut between EOs and RCs before Vatican II, the "Conversion" of Russia would probably connotate conversion to Catholicism. And the EOs would see this as proof that the Virgin herself was not really there nor manifested herself.
Despite the Soviet government being secular or promoting atheism, "Russia" still had a major EO percentage. The EO Patriarchate was still in existence and tolerated to some extent.

The dancing sun that people saw when they looked at it is not pretty hard to dismiss in the eyes of Skeptics and Protestants because it happened in July and the sun can be said to waver or dance if you stare at it, especially on a hot day in a warm region like Portugal.
source.gif


Not all witnesses reported seeing the Sun "dance". Some people only saw the radiant colors, and others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.[8][20][21][22][23] The only known picture of the Sun taken during the event shows nothing unusual.
Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia
 
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ArmyMatt

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I have heard it said that Fatima preached conversion back to Orthodoxy actually in one talk I listened to here: an orthodox perspective of roman - Bing video

The whole sun dancing in the sky thing is pretty hard to dismiss - as it seems it was seen by many, even atheists - for miles around.

And if anyone knows where I can find more music like in the opening I'd be interested!

the problem with the Russia thing is it says Russia will be consecrated to Mary's Sacred Heart. since Orthodoxy doesn't believe in the Sacred Heart, it's pretty absurd to say the vision was about Russia's conversion back to Orthodoxy.
 
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Markie Boy

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Orthodoxy seems open on whether Mary sinned. Some Church fathers thought that she did because of the time when Christ rebuked her at the wedding and the time when the crowd or his family thought that he was crazy for preaching and Jesus responded in the Gospels by asking rhetorically, Who is my mother, brother and sister?

The immaculate conception is an RC teaching whereby supposedly Mary had to be born sinless or else Christ would have been born in Adam's sin, so supposedly Mary was miraculously born sinless herself.

The vision is referring to the Pope with so much importance that the EOs would disagree with or be pretty skeptical about. What is the "Church" in the vision? It is probably the RC Church, not the EO Church, based on how the Portuguese audience would have thought of the "Church". So for a Portuguese Catholic audience at a time when relations were pretty strongly cut between EOs and RCs before Vatican II, the "Conversion" of Russia would probably connotate conversion to Catholicism. And the EOs would see this as proof that the Virgin herself was not really there nor manifested herself.
Despite the Soviet government being secular or promoting atheism, "Russia" still had a major EO percentage. The EO Patriarchate was still in existence and tolerated to some extent.

The dancing sun that people saw when they looked at it is not pretty hard to dismiss in the eyes of Skeptics and Protestants because it happened in July and the sun can be said to waver or dance if you stare at it, especially on a hot day in a warm region like Portugal.
source.gif


Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia

I guess this is why I don't put much stock in apparitions. God didn't leave us lacking anything from the Apostles. Actually, Jesus didn't seem to think too highly of those seeking signs in Matthew 16:4

- 4An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.
 
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Markie Boy

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I would listen to Fr. Matt on this one and not spend your time judging.


In the past though, I've found the "three secrets" of Sister Lucia aspect of Fatima, and Sister Lucia herself, to be suspect. I say nothing about the 1917 apparition itself nor of the other children.

About 30 years after the Fatima apparitions (the miracles happened in 1917, the secrets were published in 1943), Sister Lucia published these secrets.

"The Third Secret" which so many Trad Cats have huddled around about and have speculated countless theories on has been explained inconsistently by Sister Lucia; if you listen to her own words around the time of publication, and those who have claimed to hear it from her / those who have read the secret, it's very clear that the Third Secret was Apocalyptic in nature that spoke about incoming disasters at either a spiritual / church level or physical chastisement from God for the godlessness of the 20th century. Sister Lucia said herself that the Third Secret was contained in Revelation 12.

However, in the 90s / 2000s before she died, she gives a diametrically opposed interpretation that simply predicted Pope John Paul II's assassination attempt and the Soviet persecution of Catholics. It's inconsistent such that there are websites and sources that argue the Vatican killed her and replaced her with a double.

Two Sister Lucys of Fatima? Sister Lucia of Fatima

It should be said that she was very old at that point and might have been simply mentally encumbered.

Sister Lucia also said in her own memoirs that during the Canonical Inquiry, she felt the Holy Spirit compelled her to remain silent in regards to the Secrets, because, and I quote, she "obeys the aspirations of the Holy Spirit first before the aspirations of the Holy Spirit's representatives."


Despite these inconsistencies, I want to make it clear that I'm not saying anything about Sister Lucia herself, her spiritual life, or even the validity of Fatima, and especially, especially towards Catholics who have great devotion to the Theotokos through Fatima.

In fact, it might very well be legitimate and open to some kind of Orthodox interpretation, but these are inconsistencies I've pointed out in the past that can't help me but raise an eyebrow.


I do think there is something kind of mystical with Fatima that suggests some of it may be legitimate, even within Sister Lucia's own "Three Secrets" thing. Some of the imagery of the Vatican's own published Third Secret does parallel some of the imagery in Saint John of Kronstadt's own apocalyptic vision, assuming that either is legitimate.

That's not to mention the uncanny fact that Revelation 12's "swiping of the stars," typologically, may very well be referring to a mass apostasy of Bishops, as you often find in Patristic writings the Bishropic associated with "guiding lights;" Saint Gregory the Dialogist himself calls Bishops stars of the sky which guide those at sea, and Saint John Chrysostom is alleged to have said that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of priests, and the lamposts of that road are the skulls of Bishops.


So in the end, I don't know. But I highly recommend to you, OP, that you obey Christ's own words. Matthew 6:25-34


Thank you - I feel best I can do is not pay much attention to Fatima, as I don't know what it is, and focus on the things that are surely trustworthy.

Being in the RCC, I am surrounded by people that spend lot's of time on this stuff, and so little in Scripture, it's hard to keep balance without simply ignoring ones surroundings.
 
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Euodius

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Can you please provide some details on this? I wasn't able to find any info on this theory online.

EOs tend to be skeptical about modern vision claims and test them theologically. Since Fatima preached the conversion of Russian to Catholicism, Orthodoxy would not not consider it to be a real apparition of the Theotokos.

Well, I'd link you to this paper which discusses the creation of a 'Marian Apparition' by the CIA. As for Fatima - it clearly was 'something,' but it also wasn't a legit apparition. There isn't much it could be - either being a demonic manifestation or a geopolitical game. I think considering the general history of western anti-Russian sentiments that Fatima falls fairly well on an intelligence operation.

CIA PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE OPERATIONS IN CHILE, NICARAGUA AND JAMAICA
 
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E.C.

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Can you please provide some details on this? I wasn't able to find any info on this theory online.

EOs tend to be skeptical about modern vision claims and test them theologically. Since Fatima preached the conversion of Russian to Catholicism, Orthodoxy would not not consider it to be a real apparition of the Theotokos.
Most Orthodox don't consider Fatima legit if they consider it at all.

Especially since Russians have been Christian since the 10th century where as that "secret" of Fatima implies that Russia is not Christian at all.
 
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