Face book friend posted this. So, how's he wrong?

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martymonster

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The interesting thing about the OP is that it quotes Mat 5:44 which does indeed say to love your enemies because God treats his enemies well. It doesn't quite say that God loves them, but that seems to be the clear implication. The parallel in Luke comes closer. Luke 6:35-36 says to be kind to your enemies because God is kind and merciful to the wicked.

It is, of course, possible that God is merciful only during this life, and when they die throws them into hell. But somehow "love your enemies to be like me, who is merciful temporarily so I can torture them forever after they die" loses some of its force.

I admit it's a problem. We have both these statements about God being merciful to his enemies, Paul's vision of final reconciliation, and descriptions of punishment. Something is non-literal. I would suggest for your consideration that it might be the punishments, at least in Jesus' teachings. (I think the Revelation really does intend to teach vengeance.) There's no question Jesus intends to teach accountability. But perhaps the vision of 1 Cor 3:12-15 is behind Jesus' ideas of judgement.

1 Cor 3:12 is dangerous to cite in this kind of discussion, because it is clearly aimed at Christians. It certainly teaches that they will end up saved even though much of what they did is destroyed. It says nothing about non-Christians. But Jesus' statements about judgement aren't aimed at pagans either. He's warning his listeners, not threatening third parties. Indeed most of the NT references to judgement are in the context of warning lazy Christians, not describing what happens to non-Christians.


I think it's quite silly to dismiss these sorts of memes as an unjustified attack on Christians. The people that put forth these kinds of attacks, aren't really attacking God, more mainstream Christianity's idea of who God is. The Lord very often uses Heathen nations to discipline God's people and show them their sin, and he does it a lot.
Claims that such memes are unjustified attacks, is very short sighted.
 
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hedrick

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I think it's quite silly to dismiss these sorts of memes as an unjustified attack on Christians. The people that put forth these kinds of attacks, aren't really attacking God, more mainstream Christianity's idea of who God is. The Lord very often uses Heathen nations to discipline God's people and show them their sin, and he does it a lot.
Claims that such memes are unjustified attacks, is very short sighted.
We don't know whether the meme was posted by a Christian or non-Christian. But I think it would be fair for a non-Christian to think that Christianity includes the concept of eternal torment. Most Christians do believe this, and many think that the alternatives contradict the core Gospel.

I don't much like Christianity to be judged by beliefs I think are both un-biblical and wrong, but a non-Christian probably should judge Christianity by what most Christians believe and do. It's reasonable to believe that if Christianity is what it claims to be, it should advocate and demonstrate better qualities and show a better type of life than the general culture. If Rodney Stark's analysis is right, that was what caused Christianity to grow within the Roman Empire.

I think starting in the 20th Cent, that is no longer true. I can't help wondering if that's part of why a younger generation isn't interested. If they don't see things to admire in Christians around them, and in fact Christianity seems in some cases to make people worse, why bother investigating any further?
 
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martymonster

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We don't know whether the meme was posted by a Christian or non-Christian. But I think it would be fair for a non-Christian to think that Christianity includes the concept of eternal torment. Most Christians do believe this, and many think that the alternatives contradict the core Gospel.

I don't much like Christianity to be judged by beliefs I think are both un-biblical and wrong, but a non-Christian probably should judge Christianity by what most Christians believe and do. It's reasonable to believe that if Christianity is what it claims to be, it should advocate and demonstrate better qualities and show a better type of life than the general culture. If Rodney Stark's analysis is right, that was what caused Christianity to grow within the Roman Empire.

I think starting in the 20th Cent, that is no longer true. I can't help wondering if that's part of why a younger generation isn't interested. If they don't see things to admire in Christians around them, and in fact Christianity seems in some cases to make people worse, why bother investigating any further?

The meme was posted by a Atheist.
 
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SkyWriting

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That is incorrect. In Luke 16:24 the rich man said "I am tormented" which is present, passive, indicative, but that was after his death.
That doesn't disqualify the other references.
 
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Der Alte

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That doesn't disqualify the other references.
Never said it did but the post I was responding to seemed to imply that "torment" was always in the present tense which is not correct.
 
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SkyWriting

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Never said it did but the post I was responding to seemed to imply that "torment" was always in the present tense which is not correct.
I'm not sure a parable can count as either a current or future event.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Der Alte

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I'm not sure a parable can count as either a current or future event.
All the ECF who quoted or referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.
 
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Peter J Barban

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Yes, your actions are objectively promoting this mockery of Christ on a Christian forum. The only way you would not be promoting it is if you deconstructed it and explained why it was wrong or at least wrong in spirit.

There are less objectionable ways for you to question the traditional biblical explanation of Christ's love and judgment.

I am certain that some brothers in Christ have died as martyrs rather than do as you have done.
 
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martymonster

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Yes, your actions are objectively promoting this mockery of Christ on a Christian forum. The only way you would not be promoting it is if you deconstructed it and explained why it was wrong or at least wrong in spirit.

There are less objectionable ways for you to question the traditional biblical explanation of Christ's love and judgment.

I am certain that some brothers in Christ have died as martyrs rather than do as you have done.

I'm sorry, do you believe that God will throw people into hell for all eternity?
 
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hedrick

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Yes, your actions are objectively promoting this mockery of Christ on a Christian forum. The only way you would not be promoting it is if you deconstructed it andent why it was wrong or at least wrong in spirit.

There are less objectionable ways for you to question the traditional biblical explanation of Christ's love and judgment.

I am certain that some brothers in Christ have died as martyrs rather than do as you have done.
This is an unhelpful response. The OP didn't make this up. It's a common objection to Christianity. That and the problem of suffering are probably the most serious issues for many people, aside from the question of evidence for the truth of Christianity.

In discussions of this topic the main answer I've seen is that it's not God's fault. People do it to themselves. That's unconvincing for two reasons: it's contrary to what the texts actually say, and if God is omnipotent he could certainly set up the system so that people suffer consequences that are less harsh.

I don't think this is the traditional response. The response effectively accepts the premise that it's morally questionable for God to torment people eternally, and tries to shift the blame away from God. I think that traditionally Christians thought the reprobate actually deserved that kind of punishment. The argument for penal substitution is based on the concept that offenses against God are so serious that they merit infinite punishment. Do we still believe that? If not, I think in the end the traditional concept of hell won't survive.
 
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Peter J Barban

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I'm sorry, do you believe that God will throw people into hell for all eternity?
Yes, I believe it, I teach it, I proclaim it. If necessary, I will die for it.

It doesn't bother me much if you disagree, It bothers me greatly that you abuse Christ to make your point.

To save time I have cut and pasted the Biblical evidence presented at
Ten Foundational Verses for Eternal Punishment in Hell

1. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (OT)

Isaiah 66:22-24

For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the LORD,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the LORD.

And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

2. Everlasting Life/Everlasting Contempt

Daniel 12:1-2

At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3. Eternal Fire/The Fire of Hell

Matthew 18:6-9

Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

4. Eternal Punishment/Eternal Life

Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

5. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (NT)

Mark 9:42-48

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

6. Everlasting Destruction

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

7. The Punishment of Eternal Fire

Jude 7

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

8. Blackest Darkness Reserved Forever

Jude 13

[These people are] wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

9. The Smoke of Their Torment Rises for Ever and Ever

Revelation 14:9-11

If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

10. The Lake of Fire

Revelation 20:10, 14-15

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
 
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Qwertyui0p

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"You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell?" (Mat 23:33) There are many other passages like this.

Luke 16:19 (Lazarus and the rich man) if it's a literal account of hell shows someone being tormented, who wants out but can't get out.

None of this suggests simple isolation caused a person's own choices. Ultimately being sent to hell may be due to a persons choices, but if you understand these passages traditionally, God puts you there, God is responsible for your torment, and God won't let you out.

All these ideas about God giving people what they want and Hell being locked from the inside are just as far from a traditional "literal" reading as annihilation and universalism.
People willingly reject God. Heaven is a place where God is worshipped eternally. For such people, heaven wouldn't be much better than hell.
 
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martymonster

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Yes, I believe it, I teach it, I proclaim it. If necessary, I will die for it.

It doesn't bother me much if you disagree, It bothers me greatly that you abuse Christ to make your point.

To save time I have cut and pasted the Biblical evidence presented at
Ten Foundational Verses for Eternal Punishment in Hell

1. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (OT)

Isaiah 66:22-24

For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the LORD,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the LORD.

And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

2. Everlasting Life/Everlasting Contempt

Daniel 12:1-2

At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3. Eternal Fire/The Fire of Hell

Matthew 18:6-9

Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

4. Eternal Punishment/Eternal Life

Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

5. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (NT)

Mark 9:42-48

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

6. Everlasting Destruction

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

7. The Punishment of Eternal Fire

Jude 7

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

8. Blackest Darkness Reserved Forever

Jude 13

[These people are] wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

9. The Smoke of Their Torment Rises for Ever and Ever

Revelation 14:9-11

If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

10. The Lake of Fire

Revelation 20:10, 14-15

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Yes, I have seen those verses very many times.
Here, I have a verse for you.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
 
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Peter J Barban

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Yes, I have seen those verses very many times.
Here, I have a verse for you.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The traditional church teaching, which I support, has no problem with any verses in the Bible regarding its theology of God's wrath. The church teaching is both logical and internally consistent.

Do you believe that the verses I quoted are true? Are they God's word? Do you believe they were intended to be taken at face value?
 
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martymonster

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The traditional church teaching, which I support, has no problem with any verses in the Bible regarding its theology of God's wrath. The church teaching is both logical and internally consistent.

Do you believe that the verses I quoted are true? Are they God's word? Do you believe they were intended to be taken at face value?

I believe the verses that you quoted, do not mean what you think they mean.
 
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