Islam Some questions for Islamicists and Muslims

HTacianas said:

The name "jehovah" was unheard of until the 16th century. There have been Arabic speaking Christians and Jews since long before then. You'd just as well ask why is it not Jehovah in syriac. It's not. It's Aloha, meaning Eloah, the singular of Elohim.

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Limo said:

Whatsoever, Arab Christians could have used any of these names but why insisted to use the word Allah?

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dzheremi said:

This is seriously the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this website, and that's really saying something. "Copts and Catholics tried deceiving Moslems to claim that they worship the same Islam Allah and they're unitarian"?!

NO. WE COPTIC ORTHODOX PEOPLE DON'T WORSHIP YOUR FALSE GOD AND WE ARE NOT UNITARIAN.

Here, I'll put it in your false god's favorite language, the language that he tricked your false prophet in, so that you know it's not an attempt to 'deceive' anybody.

From the taraneem prayed as part of the morning doxology:

نسجد لاسم الثالوث الرب الاله العظيم
الواحد فى اللاهوت المثلث الاقانيم

(For others, it is approximately: "We prostrate before the name of the Holy Trinity, the great God, one in divinity and three in Person." +)

That is not very unitarian, is it? Not at all, in fact. And in fact we begin every prayer, speech, etc. by invoking the Holy Trinity in whatever language we are speaking in, including Arabic. You can hear it at the start of every sermon given in church for instance, as here when HG Bishop Agathon of Brazil gives a sermon in Arabic on the life of our apostle St. Mark:

Again, this is the opposite of unitarianism.

As to whether or not we worship your god, this should be obvious enough by what is already presented, but no, we do not. Do you pray in the name of the Holy Trinity? No. You pray to Muhammad's mutilation of God, infected with Arab paganism and distortion. This is not the true God, just as you say that the God of the Christians is not the true God because we dare to pray as Christians according to our God-given theology.

Don't comment on Christianity when you don't know anything about it and can do nothing but advance insane conspiracy theories about 'deception' that are hatched in the minds of those whose intellect is submerged in hell thanks to the heresies of your Muhammad, the false warner who could not tell good from evil and was an instrument of the devil.

I swear, all this type of Muslim ever does is take things that others are already doing, pervert them according to Muhammad's lies, and then claim that everyone else is out to get them and deceive them due to the similarities that they see between the preexisting religion or practice and Islam. DUH! It's cos Islam STOLE EVERYTHING THAT IS GOOD IN IT! The Byzantine emperor Manuel Palaiologos II was truly correct when he rhetorically asked what Muhammad brought that was new that was not horrible. There is nothing. Nothing.

The comments for this video in any of its many mirrors are nothing but many Muslims losing their minds about how the narrator could say that Muslims adopted their prostrations from Christians that they conquered, because Muhammad already prayed like this in Arabia where they say there were no Christians (hahaha...tell that to the Taghlib, the Lakhmid, the Kalb, etc.), before the Arab conquest of Egypt, and anyway Christians probably adopted this from Jews anyway (which may be true; the difference is that we do not deny our relations to other religions by claiming that everything before us was "the time of ignorance", like the ignorant Islamic religion and its ahistorical hagiography of itself does).

And then this type has the temerity to come here and say what Christians did or do and why, as though there is any authority in what such a person has to say when stacked against the witness from before Muhammad was ever even born! The monastery in the video is that of St. Anthony, the father of monks, on the Red Sea, which dates back to 300 AD -- 270 years before Muhammad was even born!

People of the thread, I hope you see this sort of thing for what it is: the desperate propaganda of someone who thinks that by virtue of their religion being the only one acceptable to God (as Islam says it is), he can claim any stupid thing about any other religion and doesn't even need to get within several million miles of saying anything even slightly correct because...Allah and Muhammad something something something. (No, I don't know why; not all Muslims make up a bunch of stupid things about Christianity, though all of them believe a bunch of stupid things about Christianity, because neither Muhammad nor any other early Muslim knew what they were talking about when it came to other religions.)

Lord have mercy. If your Allah is such a great god, Limo, then surely it deserves better ambassadors.

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HTacianas said:

Because that is the Arabic word for God. Why do we say "God" and germans say "Gott"? In Greek it is Theos.

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Within Reason said:

No, that is "Ilah".

"... the word ilah (“deity god”) in the most common version of the Arabic Bible (Vandyke version) ..."

in qur'an:

al Baqara 2:133

أَمْ كُنتُمْ شُهَدَاءَ إِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوبَ الْمَوْتُ إِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيهِ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن بَعْدِي قَالُوا نَعْبُدُ إِلَٰهَكَ وَإِلَٰهَ آبَائِكَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ إِلَٰهًا وَاحِدًا وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

Am kuntum shuhadaa ith hadara yaAAqooba almawtu ith qala libaneehi ma taAAbudoona min baAAdee qaloo naAAbudu ilahaka wa-ilaha aba-ika ibraheema wa-ismaAAeela wa-ishaqa ilahan wahidan wanahnu lahu muslimoona

wa-ilāha, وَإِلَهَ

and the God

“Were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his children, ‘What will you worship after me?’ They said, ‘We will worship your god (God), and the god (God) of your fathers, Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac, the one god (One God), and to Him do we submit.’” (2:133)

and

al Baqara 2:163:

وَإِلَٰهُكُمْ إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ لَّا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الرَّحْمَٰنُ الرَّحِيمُ

Wa-ilahukum ilahun wahidun la ilaha illa huwa alrrahmanu alrraheemu

wa-ilāhukum, وَإِلَهُكُمْ

And your God

ilāhun, إِلَهٌ

(is) God

“Your god (God) is the one god (One God), there is no god except Him, the All-beneficent, the All- merciful.” (2:163)

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Limo said:

Again, I'm repeating.
The word Allah is not the translation of the word God or the word Theos.
The word Al-ilah is the translation of the word God or Theos or Gott.
Also, the Christians who translated the Gospels were not native Arabic.
Egyptian and North Africans and Catholics in Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq are not native Arabic. They've should use the word "Al-ilah" as they did in English, German,,, or use the Greek or Coptic word.

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Limo said:

Although I disagree with all what you're saying but I'll take your comments positively. I'll use it to respond to @Within Reason.
So, what you're saying is that Allah is a true name of the Christian God.

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Then @Within Reason our Christian friend here has a strong actually very strong logic to respond to your post. He says that the name Allah is a true name for the Christian and Jewdaism God.
All the false claims in the 2 videos that you've shared About name Allah is a false mistaken name have been defeated by a Christian.

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HTacianas said:

And why should they have done that?

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dzheremi said:

I think the meaning of my post is being confused here.

No. Allah is not a name for God to anyone but Muslims; it is not a personal pronoun (like Jesus, Peter, Mark, etc). Allah is a word for God in Arabic, equivalent to "God" in English, "Gott" in German, and all the others that others have been pointing out. We don't say in any of these languages that these are God's 'name'.



This is the same problem that we have with Muslims, however: These people have their conclusion already, and so it does not matter what people who actually speak these languages do; they must be mistaken even though they have been doing it since before Islam. What can anyone do but present evidence? Those who still want to believe otherwise may do so. We can only maintain that just because we are using the same word doesn't mean we are addressing the same God, which is something that ought to give both Christians and Muslims great relief.

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Within Reason said:

No, that is "Ilah".

"... the word ilah (“deity god”) in the most common version of the Arabic Bible (Vandyke version) ..."

in qur'an:

al Baqara 2:133

أَمْ كُنتُمْ شُهَدَاءَ إِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوبَ الْمَوْتُ إِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيهِ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن بَعْدِي قَالُوا نَعْبُدُ إِلَٰهَكَ وَإِلَٰهَ آبَائِكَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ إِلَٰهًا وَاحِدًا وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

Am kuntum shuhadaa ith hadara yaAAqooba almawtu ith qala libaneehi ma taAAbudoona min baAAdee qaloo naAAbudu ilahaka wa-ilaha aba-ika ibraheema wa-ismaAAeela wa-ishaqa ilahan wahidan wanahnu lahu muslimoona

wa-ilāha, وَإِلَهَ

and the God

“Were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his children, ‘What will you worship after me?’ They said, ‘We will worship your god (God), and the god (God) of your fathers, Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac, the one god (One God), and to Him do we submit.’” (2:133)

and

al Baqara 2:163:

وَإِلَٰهُكُمْ إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ لَّا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الرَّحْمَٰنُ الرَّحِيمُ

Wa-ilahukum ilahun wahidun la ilaha illa huwa alrrahmanu alrraheemu

wa-ilāhukum, وَإِلَهُكُمْ

And your God

ilāhun, إِلَهٌ

(is) God

“Your god (God) is the one god (One God), there is no god except Him, the All-beneficent, the All- merciful.” (2:163)

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Limo said:

Again and again and again.
Not only me who said this but many people had.
Allah is not the translation of God

Al-ilah is the right translation

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dzheremi said:

Sometimes yes. It depends on what we're actually saying in a given prayer. But again, Islamic theological claims about the identity of your God do not change the Arabic language. Muhammad or the Qur'an or whatever Islamic thing did not invent Arabic or set its rules. Sometimes we have to use ilah and sometimes Allah. Muslims should grow up and deal with it. If you really don't like it, then you and all who think similarly should support the revival of Coptic language in Egypt and Sudan (and the Nubian in the Nubian areas of both of these places), and discourage the Arabic. I think most of the native people who are not slaves to Arabism as a result of practically deifying Muhammad would be fine with that. (Including some Muslims, some of whom in Egypt even call themselves Coptic Muslims. )

Anyway, before every Gospel reading, we are prepared and instructed قفوا بخوف الله, which means "Stand up in the fear of God", not "Stand up in the fear of Muhammad's version of Allah, the 'Islamic' god", as the full phrase is "Stand up in the fear of God, and let us listen to the Holy Gospel! A reading from the Gospel according to our teacher St. ____ (Evangelist's name), may his blessings be with us all, amen." Muhammad's god is clearly not invoked here because we do not fear it (it is a false god, so it has no power), and also Muhammad's god did not inspire any of the gospel writers, and apparently -- according to Islam -- does not approve of the Christian Gospels, as they contain the truth about Jesus Christ our Lord, God, and Savior.

Yet this is what we have always said and done. Before the Arabs came into Egypt, we said it in Greek instead, to accommodate the mixed Greek/Coptic populations in the Church at the time. We're not going to stop doing it this way just because the youngest religion to arrive in Egypt has a bee in its bonnet over a language that none of the Christian Egyptians even wanted to speak in the first place. Arabic has nothing to do with our theology, and it's not our fault if you can't say the same. That's really a problem of your own theology. Take it up with your god.

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Limo said:

Irrelevant

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• The word God appeared twice (one God, God the Father)
• If someone is going to translate into Arabic he should use the translation of word god which is Ilah إله
• If we take into consideration the capital letter in the god to be a definitive noun God then we add prefix Al ال in Arabic for a definitive, so God should be translated to Al-Ilah الإله
• In Arabic we don't use definite (one) the definite (God), we should use either indefinite+indefinite "The one God" or "one god"
• There is no Allah at all and shouldn't be used
• So the right honest translation should be "نؤمن بإله واحد؛ الإله الأب" or "نؤمن بالإله الواحد؛ الإله الأب"=="Nomen b-Ilah wahed, Al-Ilah Al-Ab" or "Nomen b-Al-Ilah Al-wahed, Al-Ilah Al-Ab"

• English :
  
  • "We believe in one God، God the Father، the Pantocrator"
• Should be in Arabic :
  
  • "نؤمن بإله واحد؛ الإله الأب" "Nomen b-Ilah wahed, Al-Ilah Al-Ab"
    
  • "نؤمن بالإله الواحد؛ الإله الأب" "Nomen b-Al-Ilah Al-wahed, Al-Ilah Al-Ab"
• Intentionally the Islamic name Allah have been inserted without any justification
  • "نؤمن بإله واحد، الله الآب" "Nomen b-Ilah wahed,Allah Al-Ab"
  • First occurrence of the word God is translated to Ilah إله but surprisingly the second occurrence translated to Allah الله

Limo said:

You're mixing everything with everything.
İsraeel, ismaeel, mekaeel, gebreel names in quran. These name are names of prophets and angels.
The endings are "eel". These are non Arabic names.
The names "Al-lat" and "Al-uzah" have prefix "Al" which equivalent to "the" in English
The name Al-lat is a title not a name refers to previous good person who was kneeding or puddling breads then people worshipped him. Same Al-uzah is a w
Coutitle for someone was having extreme bride.

As for as I know there was no statue god in peninsula name Lah. Don't tell about Pharos statue god and this non scene stories. We need scientific evidence

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Limo said:

(It'll be intersted if we start another thread but I can't)

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Here is a proof that Arab Christians Churches intentionally reuse the Islamic name Allah to deceive Christians and Moslems.

I'll try to make it simple for people who don't know Arabic.

The Nicene Creed in English is "We believe in one God، God the Father، the Pantocrator", we Can note the following:

• The word God appeared twice (one God, God the Father)
• If someone is going to translate into Arabic he should use the translation of word god which is Ilah إله
• If we take into consideration the capital letter in the god to be a definitive noun God then we add prefix Al ال in Arabic for a definitive, so God should be translated to Al-Ilah الإله
• In Arabic we don't use definite (one) the definite (God), we should use either indefinite+indefinite "The one God" or "one god"
• There is no Allah at all and shouldn't be used
• So the right honest translation should be "نؤمن بإله واحد؛ الإله الأب" or "نؤمن بالإله الواحد؛ الإله الأب"=="Nomen b-Ilah wahed, Al-Ilah Al-Ab" or "Nomen b-Al-Ilah Al-wahed, Al-Ilah Al-Ab"

in summary:

• English :
  
  • "We believe in one God، God the Father، the Pantocrator"
• Should be in Arabic :
  
  • "نؤمن بإله واحد؛ الإله الأب" "Nomen b-Ilah wahed, Al-Ilah Al-Ab"
    
  • "نؤمن بالإله الواحد؛ الإله الأب" "Nomen b-Al-Ilah Al-wahed, Al-Ilah Al-Ab"
• Intentionally the Islamic name Allah have been inserted without any justification
  • "نؤمن بإله واحد، الله الآب" "Nomen b-Ilah wahed,Allah Al-Ab"
  • First occurrence of the word God is translated to Ilah إله but surprisingly the second occurrence translated to Allah الله

As you see, it's not an honest correct translation but intentionally deceiving translation.
I hope it's clear for non-Arabic literate people.
Regards

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Deus Vult! said:

Islam itself does mix "everything with everything". The name "Al-Lat" does not mean "The Lat". The name "Al-Uzzah" does not mean "The Uzzah". The name "Al-Lah" does not mean "The God". The title "Al-Lah" means "god Lah". Simple as that. True that "El" or "eel" are not Arabic. I never said that they are. I stated that Arabic borrows much of its language from Aramaic. Aramaic uses "Al" in place of what later became "El" for a later more modernized Hebrew. Lat is a name. Uzzah is a name. Lah is a name. Thus to give reverence to these false gods the Arabic speaking polytheists of the 7th century would add the title of divinity "Al" to their names. Thus you have "Lat" as "Al-Lat". Lah as "Al-Lah", etc. Obviously Ishma-al in Aramaic is not translated as "The Ishma".

Islamic scholars that convert out of Islam have admitted this, in fact I only learned it from them. You should learn from Arabic speaking ex-muslims also. They would confirm what I am saying since I am only repeating what they assert.
I would advise you to watch and learn from an ex-muslim and Christian apologist that goes by the youtube name "Christian Prince. His channel is "The Arabian Prophet". Watch his videos on the name Al-Lah.

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dzheremi said:

I'm not going to start another thread so that you can spread your poison in it. Maybe one of the Christians who agrees with you about Allah being the "God of the Muslims" or whatever will help you with that. It might be good. They should be educated too so that they can stop unknowingly slandering the millions of Arabic-speaking Christians who believe in the same God as they do, and have nothing to do with Islam or any other religion.

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As has been explained to me, the second instance is translated Allah because we are talking about the supreme God -- God the Father --

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and we (traditional Christians) are monarchists in this way, as the same divinity that is shared by all three Persons of the Holy Trinity has its source in the Father (i.e., the Trinity is not unlike itself in essence, with heterogenous ousiai): the Word is not other than the incarnation of that same divinity (uniting it with our humanity and thereby elevating our nature), and the Holy Spirit the comforter Whom He sends is likewise the same divinity. You must consider not just the sentences themselves, but also the context in which they were written: the Creed discusses the relation of the Persons in the Holy Trinity in order to definitively shut out the Arians and other disbelievers who would say that the Persons are of somehow different substance/ousia (greater or lesser, or of a different type from each other, or otherwise not related in this way; I don't know every sort of Arian there ever was). So it was necessary to emphasize to those who disbelieved that we believe in precisely this way, as there were others who wanted some kind of compromise, like saying (in the original Greek) that God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son were not homoousious (same nature) but homoiousios (similar nature). That one little letter made a huge difference, and those of the latter camp were cast out of the Church.

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Is Allah not also the supreme God in the Islamic theology? If you say no, then why does your proclamation الله اكبر read as it does? What is there for your God to be greater than, in that case?

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In Muhammad's case, I assume that he and other Muslims would say the gods of the pagans, such as those who famously smashed in the Kaaba before taking it over. That's fine, I suppose, but then it is very strange (albeit predictable) that Muslims would be fine with something Muhammad did to assert the supremacy of his god, but then complain when Christians use language they have always used to express a similar concept in their own theology.

I don't even care that you don't like it, but to paint it as though it is some kind of intentional deception to claim that we are worshiping the Islamic god or whatever is just a bunch of nonsense. Again, you are mixing your religion's theological claims up with ours, and saying that because Islam believes XYZ about God, Christians are misrepresenting their theology to make it seem more acceptable to Muslims or something. Not even by arguing as such, but by using one specific word.

Seriously: How stupid do you imagine your fellow Muslims to be if you think that this would even work? "Oh, they used that word we already use -- I guess I'll convert now!"

I am often accused of being an 'Islamophobe' here on CF (as if we have anything to fear from a false god and a false religion if we know our own religion), but not even I would think that low of Muslims. Plenty of smart, even brilliant people, are Muslims, and even then you don't need to be a genius to see how stupid your idea of Christian deception by using 'Allah' instead of 'al-Ilah' is.

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As for using the Coptic word instead, unfortunately for you as I've already explained this same distinction exists in Coptic, so this would not cease to be an issue in that language. Are you and your religion going to try to claim Efnouti now and say that we can only use Nenouti, Penouti, and other differently-defined nouns? That's what you're trying to do with Arabic (all for the sake of your theological claims which we do not share to begin with), and it's just as silly there.

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You can suggest Arab Christians to use Efnouti, or Nenouti, or Penouti, or Theo, or God, or , Jehovah or whatever but not the Islamic name Allah


All what you or all Arab Christian say doesn't change the fact that you've used an Islamic name Allah without any Linguistic justification other than the Islamic explanation of the meaning of the word.

If you or people who tells you have any linguistic reply to the post

Post it here