Most of us all agree Gal. 3:23 is not saying there was no faith in the OT, so then what about works?

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
You are basing a salvation of works on the writings of James.

Not understanding James tells us that Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. The works proved his righteousness.

I have shown you that a man can lose his works and still be saved.

Is Paul a liar? No, I think not.

Your problem is believing in a process of salvation through sanctification. That is a works salvation no matter how you stack it up.

I have shown you that a man is saved and sanctified completely with an upright standing before God.

But yet he is continuously being sanctified to reach that standing of sanctification in Christ. Which will ultimately take place at the resurrection.

Also, please read the verses in post #38. It will help to explain to you what kind of Law and or works Paul was referring to. You want it to be Law in general, and or works in general (When this was not the case). Please check out the context whenever you see words like "Law," and or "works." You will realize that Paul was not attacking the Law of Christ, but the 613 Laws of Moses.

Charlie24 · Mar 4, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
First, the word "justified" appears one time in James 2:24. It is used for both "works" and "faith" in the same verse. You obviously believe we are justified by faith for salvation. So that same word "justified" is used for works in the same sentence or verse. So you have to change the meaning of the word "justified" in this case (So as to make your belief work).

Second, Abraham and Rahab are examples used as being "justified by works" (See: James 2:21-26). Nobody was around to see Abraham offer Isaac upon the altar. So this means that this act of justification was not done before men to be justified, but it was done towards God to be justified. Why? Because works of faith is a part of one's faith and or belief in God. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

For example: If Rick said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Rick believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.

You are reasoning your way to salvation, that won't work.

If works are necessary for salvation, how can a mans works be burned and he still be saved?

Would it not be then that works are not necessary for salvation but only prove that one has been justified?

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I disagree that sanctification is part of the salvation process! There is no process in salvation.

Sanctification is being set apart to do God's work. Paul plainly tells us in 1Cor. 3:11-15 that a mans works can be burned up by not passing the test of fire, and yet he will still be saved.

The works that James speaks of is proof that one has been justified, but then again Paul says those works can misguided works. If the faith is in tact in Christ that person will still be saved.

We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, what He did for us at Calvary. Period!

But Paul is talking about someone who is “building on the foundation of Christ”, not someone who is believing and doing nothing. Can we build on the foundation of Christ with sin?

crossnote · Mar 4, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Meaning: We surrender our lives to the Lord, and He does the good work through us. So this passage is not a case for a a sin and still be saved type belief in any way.

No one is saying the Christian can sin away and still be saved. If they sin away it's a good indication they are not saved to begin with.
Romans 6:2-4 KJVS
[2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Charlie24 · Mar 4, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
But Paul is talking about someone who is “building on the foundation of Christ”, not someone who is believing and doing nothing. Can we build on the foundation of Christ with sin?

We can build for the wrong reasons, but still be saved.

crossnote · Mar 4, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

Too long, too much rambling. It sounds like you don't have a sufficient grasp on what you are trying to communicate. Sorry.

crossnote · Mar 4, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I believe a little differently. While I believe a saint can achieve a state of Sinless Perfection (over a course of time involving the Sanctification Process), I do not believe it is a salvation issue (if one fails to reach this state of perfection).

Not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin (Note: Grievous sin are sins the Bible warns with punishment by hellfire, or spiritual death, etc.; These would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). If these sins are confessed with the intention of forsaking them, the individual is not abiding in spiritual death.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).

Conclusion:

Believers have to overcome grievous sin in this life as a part of salvation. They have God's grace, and His Word, and power to overcome grievous sin in this life. The believer must overcome; For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

Have fun with your perfectionistic walk. I'm done.

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
We can build for the wrong reasons, but still be saved.

Can we build on the foundation of Christ with sin?

Charlie24 · Mar 4, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Can we build on the foundation of Christ with sin?

Of course not!

But we can try to build without the anointing of the Holy Spirit which God will not accept.

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Of course not!

But we can try to build without the anointing of the Holy Spirit which God will not accept.

How do we build on the foundation of Christ? Is it by believing and doing nothing?

Charlie24 · Mar 4, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
How do we build on the foundation of Christ? Is it by believing and doing nothing?

I agree! It's all about the Holy Spirit doing it through us. If not, it will be burned.

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I agree! It's all about the Holy Spirit doing it through us. If not, it will be burned.

Amen it’s not about the work itself it’s about the state of the heart. The heart that wants to please God and wants to serve Him. The heart that truly loves Him will want to please Him and serve Him. Do you love anyone whom you’ve never done anything for?

eternally thankful · Mar 4, 2020

crossnote said:
Have fun with your perfectionistic walk. I'm done.

People who claim sinless perfection have hardened hearts I am afraid-and are therefore seriously misguided:
If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
You are reasoning your way to salvation, that won't work.

If works are necessary for salvation, how can a mans works be burned and he still be saved?

Would it not be then that works are not necessary for salvation but only prove that one has been justified?

You are misinterpreting the parable that Paul gave us in 1 Corinthians 3.

#1. The chief cornerstone foundation = Jesus Christ.

#2. Built as a part of the foundation on top of Christ = The apostles (including Paul, etc.) (Ephesians 2:20).

#3. The actual building materials of the tower or building = God's people (In this instance it would be the Corinthians).

#4. The Corinthians would be like: Wood, hay, and stubble in this particular point in time within their life while they abided in their sins of strife, and envying (Which are sins that will cause a person to not inherit the Kingdom of God - See: Galatians 5:19-21). Wood, hay, and stubble are not materials that could survive a fire.

#5. Paul (the soul winner, and builder of the gospel and builder upon the foundation of Jesus Christ) would be saved through the fire (despite his work - i.e. the Corinthians being his work) would be burned up because of their sins. For Paul then says that if any man defiles the temple, God will destroy them (Meaning: God will destroy the Corinthians if they do not repent of their sins). We are the temple of God. Our bodies are the temples of God. If we as believers defile our temples by sin, God will destroy us.

Obviously a person does not build sin upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. Sin is not a good work or a part of the Kingdom or the faith. Paul says if any man defiles the temple (Which would be by sin), God will destroy them.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
You are reasoning your way to salvation, that won't work.

Notice how you did not seek to explain how there is only one word "justified" in relation to both "faith," and "works" in James 2:24. Notice how you did not explain how Abraham was justified by works as mentioned in James 2 when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar. Most who are for Belief Alone-ism (such as yourself) try to create a work around on this one by saying that Abraham was being justified only before men and not God. But the whole entire context of James 2 is a point in having faith in Jesus Christ without respect of persons (See: James 2:1). If these texts cannot be understood by using basic logic or reason (with God guiding us by His Spirit to understand such portions of Scripture), then how can we understand any text in God's Word (the Bible)? Does your interpretation of Scripture lay upon the foundation of confusion? 1 Corinthians 14:33 says God is not the author of confusion. The opposite of confusion would be order, reason, and logic. God is for these things. For it is written for us all,

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Isaiah 1:18).

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2020

crossnote said:
No one is saying the Christian can sin away and still be saved.

Of course they are. The majority of Belief Alone Proponents believe this way. They just cannot see that they are promoting a "sin and still be saved" type belief. Take for example your earlier misinterpretations on Scripture in defense of how Christians can "sin and are still saved" by your pointing to Romans 7:14-24, 1 John 1:10, and Matthew 19:16-26.

You said:
If they sin away it's a good indication they are not saved to begin with.
Romans 6:2-4 KJVS

In my many conversations over the years on this topic: I have come to discover that Eternal Security Proponents, or Non-Eternal Security Sin and Still Be Saved Salvationists (Free Will Baptists), or Belief Alone Proponents believe that they will not live in a gross lifestyle involving certain really bad sins (like murder, rape, child abuse, etc.), but on the other hand, they also say that they sin every day in other ways. Many will admit that they can lie, or hate, or lust after a woman briefly and get hit by a bus before confessing it to the Lord Jesus Christ and still be saved. They believe they are saved by having a belief alone in Jesus. In light of what the Bible says, I believe this to be a form of justifying sin, as well.

You said:
[2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

How can one walk in newness of life if one is teaching that Paul struggled with sin in Romans 7:14-24?
How can one walk in newness of life if one is teaching that we always sin as per 1 John 1:10?
How can one walk in newness of life if one is teaching that Jesus was promoting the impossibility of keeping God's commands in Matthew 19:16-26?

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Of course not!

But we can try to build without the anointing of the Holy Spirit which God will not accept.

Most Eternal Security Proponents believe that way. They believe they build sin upon Jesus and that it will be burned up. For they believe the works of sin or darkness will be burned up.

Charlie24 · Mar 4, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Most Eternal Security Proponents believe that way. They believe they build sin upon Jesus and that it will be burned up. For they believe the works of sin or darkness will be burned up.

I know it's hard to give up works as a part of salvation.

Got to work somewhat for it, right!

Rom. 11:5-6
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2020

crossnote said:
Too long, too much rambling. It sounds like you don't have a sufficient grasp on what you are trying to communicate. Sorry.

The Bible is long and that does not invalidate its message. As for the rambling: As I am sure you are aware of, in the dictionary it defines ramble so as to speak, or write in a long and confusing way.

Is this true? No. Others have understood this writing before and knew what I was talking about. So it is simply "you" not wanting to see what I have written. For I understand what I wrote just fine. The Bible has many long and confusing statements within it, that does not invalidate what it is saying. If you have a question on any portion of what I had written, I would be glad to explain it. I believe I said things just fine, but if you need clarification, I am happy to help.

But to give you the quick version: 1 John 1:8, and 1 John 1:10 are warnings to the believer not to think like the gnostic who thought that sin did not exist or that it was an illusion in some way. I believe 1 John 1:8 is saying, "If we say we have no sin [when we do happen to sin on rare occasion], we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion. So when they sin physically, they do not think sin is real on a spiritual level of some kind. It does not exist for them. I know. One of my close family members who is for Christian Science told me that "sin is an illusion." The Eternal Security Proponent or Belief Alone Proponent believes a similar way, they believe they can sin physically, but their sin does not exist on a spiritual level for them (and they are saved) by having a belief alone on Jesus and that Jesus paid for all their future sin. But 1 John 1:8 would be a warning against them thinking this way. 1 John 1:9 would be the prescription for their life. They need to confess of sin in order to be forgiven of sin.

But.... they do not believe that verse, either. They do not think they are really being forgiven of sin as it is understood through out the whole of the Bible, but they invent this "break in fellowship but we are still saved" type belief. Pretty clever but it is still non-sense in light of the context. They also do not believe they can be cleansed of all unrighteousness as per 1 John 1:9, either. What they believe those words say in 1 John 1:9 is beyond me.

Simply put, Belief Alone-ism is pure nonsense and you know it deep down.

eternally thankful · Mar 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I know it's hard to give up works as a part of salvation.

Got to work somewhat for it, right!

Rom. 11:5-6
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It may be an idea for people to tell us exactly what works will enable us to get to Heaven. What do they themselves believe are works that will justify their entry into heaven?
Would they consider obeying Jesus commands are works that will enable them to enter Heaven? Would they then consider they must lend to their enemies, those who may hate them without ever expecting anything back? Would they consider they must give to anyone who steals from them more besides what they stole, loving them whilst doing so? Would they consider without truly in their hearts loving those who may persecute them bar them from heaven as this would be failure to do a work? Would they consider failure to leap for joy when they are persecuted a lack of work that could bar them from Heaven? Just wondered what the benchmark is here as to works needed to enter heaven

Most of us all agree Gal. 3:23 is not saying there was no faith in the OT, so then what about works?

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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