If Christianity the true religion, how is it observably different from other, false, religions

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That is true up to a point, we cannot prove with certainty that there is an objective reality but Christianity gives a more rational basis for believing an objective reality than atheism. And a more rational basis for an objective reality than Hinduism. And a more rational basis for real diversity than Hinduism and Islam.
Even if we do accept all that as true for the moment, saying "option A makes more sense than options B, C or D" is no reason to believe that option A is actually the truth. Maybe there's another explanation you've never heard of. As an argument for Christianity being true, this doesn't hold water.
 
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muichimotsu

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That is true up to a point, we cannot prove with certainty that there is an objective reality but Christianity gives a more rational basis for believing an objective reality than atheism. And a more rational basis for an objective reality than Hinduism. And a more rational basis for real diversity than Hinduism and Islam.
Objective reality in the sense that it can be verified by us, no, that's not realistic anywhere, objective reality in the sense that it functions apart from our observation: Christianity isn't really required for that, only in terms of someone wanting some deeper answer behind reality, which becomes an exercise in applying anthropocentric thinking to the universe

Not sure why you have to make this a competition when you tend to engage in mischaracterization or skewing of facts in regards to something based on a particular preconception of how you think humans look at the world or, more particularly, should view the world
 
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Ed1wolf

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Scientists have 'confirmed' no such thing, in any sense that is relevant to your religion. Big Bang cosmology describes the earliest known state, expansion, and early evolution of the universe. It says nothing at all about a 'definite beginning', because our physics are currently incapable of addressing anything pre-Planck time.

You've been corrected on this point numerous times. Kindly stop making stuff up to support your garbage apologetics.
Maybe it hasn't been confirmed with certainty but that is the majority view according to Dr. Donald Goldsmith's response to a letter to the editor in the November 2007 issue of Natural History magazine.
 
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mmksparbud

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Hello!
I will start with one simple fact that distinguishes Christianity from all other religions.
Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God in the Flesh.
He walked the earth, interacted with His chosen, performed numerous miracles and healings, forgave sins, cast demons out of individuals, died for the sins of the world , resurrected from the dead, walked with them for an additional 40 days then ascended to His home leaving us with His Holy Spirit to guild us for the rest of our earthly existence. This is the foundation of Christianity. Circling back to "Emmanuel" God with us, He always existed with no beginning and no ending. He created everything including man in "His own image'. All through history, He was challenged by "other" Gods yet He proved Himself by the power displayed when met with adversity.
Now I understand that most of what I speak of is documented in the Old and New Testament however, many of the writings have archaeological proof, ancient unbiased historical accounts and scientific data leading to an intelligent designer.
As far as proving Christianity as a false religion, it would be as difficult for me to prove that oxygen does not exist.


I see no response to post #44.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Maybe it hasn't been confirmed

Not 'maybe'. It has not been confirmed. Full stop.

but that is the majority view

No it isn’t. The type of ‘absolute beginning’ you are referring to - an ex nihilo creation event of the totality of existence - IS NOT the ‘majority view’, and you will not find that assertion in evidence in any primary scientific literature.

You are, as per usual, committing a blatant equivocation fallacy. The 'beginning' described in Big Bang cosmology - that is, the earliest known state, expansion, and early evolution of the known universe - IS NOT the same type of 'beginning' you have saddled yourself with demonstrating in your apologetics.

Which is why every time I call you out on this, all you can ever cite is a response to a letter to the editor from a popular science magazine, from thirteen years ago. The only thing that demonstrates is that scientists are not always careful with their words when they write for a general audience. They are not always going to stop and explain 'here is specifically what I mean when I say something like the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe'.

I fully expect you to keep making the same vacuous assertion over and over again, but for the benefit of anyone reading along - please be wary when reading popular science publications. Even when written by credentialed scientists, they are not always careful with how they explain things, and they may leave you with some misconceptions.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Even if we do accept all that as true for the moment, saying "option A makes more sense than options B, C or D" is no reason to believe that option A is actually the truth. Maybe there's another explanation you've never heard of. As an argument for Christianity being true, this doesn't hold water.
Again this was not an argument for Christianity being true, this was a response to the OP.
 
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Tone

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I see no response to post #44.

I've noticed that the nonbelievers are here to simply enjoy logic exercises and argument forms and the like...
 
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mmksparbud

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I've noticed that the nonbelievers here simply enjoy logic exercises and argument forms and the like...

Yes, then they don't reply to what they have no answer for.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Objective reality in the sense that it can be verified by us, no, that's not realistic anywhere, objective reality in the sense that it functions apart from our observation: Christianity isn't really required for that, only in terms of someone wanting some deeper answer behind reality, which becomes an exercise in applying anthropocentric thinking to the universe

We can demonstrate that objective reality most likely does exist and functions apart from OUR observation. Christian theism or possibly something very close to Christian theism IS required for that demonstration.

mu: Not sure why you have to make this a competition when you tend to engage in mischaracterization or skewing of facts in regards to something based on a particular preconception of how you think humans look at the world or, more particularly, should view the world

As far as competition, I am just referring to the OP. Most humans DO conceive of the world as objective existing in every day life. Most would not walk in front of an eighteen wheeler speeding down a road.
 
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muichimotsu

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We can demonstrate that objective reality most likely does exist and functions apart from OUR observation. Christian theism or possibly something very close to Christian theism IS required for that demonstration.
Objective reality in what sense? You assume it's just self evident as to what that term entails, but then make the leap that ONLY something like monotheism and such is required to demonstrate that rather than a rational demonstration that doesn't require transcendence or an agency behind the universe for us to believe in object permanence and that reality will proceed along without us thinking about us, both of which would be reflections of believing in objective reality

Not sure how I require your god to believe that plants will continue to grow and the weather will proceed as it does in terms of nature, unless you're engaging in the anthropic principle, as if our assessment of order means there is a higher transcendent order or the like, bordering on presuppositonalism rooted in the transcendental argument for the existence of God


As far as competition, I am just referring to the OP. Most humans DO conceive of the world as objective existing in every day life. Most would not walk in front of an eighteen wheeler speeding down a road.
And yet you've failed to demonstrate why believing such things requires your god in that worldview rather than more fundamental ideas that don't necessitate something I'd argue, along with others, is superfluous and more self satisfaction in the idea that humans have some special purpose in the universe or such
 
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Ed1wolf

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Not 'maybe'. It has not been confirmed. Full stop.



No it isn’t. The type of ‘absolute beginning’ you are referring to - an ex nihilo creation event of the totality of existence - IS NOT the ‘majority view’, and you will not find that assertion in evidence in any primary scientific literature.

You are, as per usual, committing a blatant equivocation fallacy. The 'beginning' described in Big Bang cosmology - that is, the earliest known state, expansion, and early evolution of the known universe - IS NOT the same type of 'beginning' you have saddled yourself with demonstrating in your apologetics.

Which is why every time I call you out on this, all you can ever cite is a response to a letter to the editor from a popular science magazine, from thirteen years ago. The only thing that demonstrates is that scientists are not always careful with their words when they write for a general audience. They are not always going to stop and explain 'here is specifically what I mean when I say something like the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe'.

I fully expect you to keep making the same vacuous assertion over and over again, but for the benefit of anyone reading along - please be wary when reading popular science publications. Even when written by credentialed scientists, they are not always careful with how they explain things, and they may leave you with some misconceptions.
Uhh no. He is not the only one that says this. Arno Penzias a Noble Prize winning physicist also says this. His words are even stronger than Goldsmiths: "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe that was created out of nothing...." And Charles Townes another Noble Prize winner in physics agreed with this.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Objective reality in what sense? You assume it's just self evident as to what that term entails, but then make the leap that ONLY something like monotheism and such is required to demonstrate that rather than a rational demonstration that doesn't require transcendence or an agency behind the universe for us to believe in object permanence and that reality will proceed along without us thinking about us, both of which would be reflections of believing in objective reality

Not sure how I require your god to believe that plants will continue to grow and the weather will proceed as it does in terms of nature, unless you're engaging in the anthropic principle, as if our assessment of order means there is a higher transcendent order or the like, bordering on presuppositonalism rooted in the transcendental argument for the existence of God



And yet you've failed to demonstrate why believing such things requires your god in that worldview rather than more fundamental ideas that don't necessitate something I'd argue, along with others, is superfluous and more self satisfaction in the idea that humans have some special purpose in the universe or such
I will explain my argument in more detail, then you may understand. If there is no Creator God, then the universe just originated from objects. If it originated from objects then it is extremely unlikely that a subject-object correlation would be established thereby preventing us, subjects, from ever being able to know if what we are observing is what is really there, ie an objective world. But if there is a Creator God, then when He created the universe He established that subject-object correlation, thereby giving us a rational basis for believing that we what we observe is what is actually there.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Uhh no. He is not the only one that says this. Arno Penzias a Noble Prize winning physicist also says this. His words are even stronger than Goldsmiths: "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe that was created out of nothing...." And Charles Townes another Noble Prize winner in physics agreed with this.

No one said he's the 'only one'. Lots of scientists use this kind of language when writing at a popular level. You could have also cited Laurence Krauss, but you didn't, because I suspect you know that he is absolutely not on your side. Nor is virtually anyone who is credentialed in any relevant field of study, or has a even a layman's understanding of the subject.

As has already been explained, all this demonstrates is that scientists aren't very careful with how they talk about these things on the popular level.

Now here are three things that this does not demonstrate,

1 - That any of these scientists are referring to an 'absolute beginning' of the totality of existence, and not some kind of limited 'beginning' that is actually demonstrable via Big Bang cosmology.
2 - That any of these scientists are referring to 'nothing' in the same sense that you are.
3 - That any of your assertions are found in evidence in any primary scientific literature.

Equivocate all you want, that is what you are actually tasked with demonstrating - that the Big Bang represents an 'absolute beginning' of the totality of existence from a true 'nothing'. Not the 'nothing' some scientists in relevant fields refer to (which is not actually 'nothing'), but a true state of 'nothingness' in the philosophical sense, as in an absence of anything at all.

All you've done so far is commit the same blatant fallacies of equivocation over and over again. 'Look here! This scientist used the word "beginning"! And this one said "nothing"! That means I'm right.' No it doesn't. To be 'right', you are going to have to cite some primary scientific literature in your favor.

Which you won't, because you can't. It doesn't exist. All you can do is hastily Google search, cherry pick, and equivocate, like you did right here.

But by all means, keep making an example of yourself.
 
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muichimotsu

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I will explain my argument in more detail, then you may understand. If there is no Creator God, then the universe just originated from objects. If it originated from objects then it is extremely unlikely that a subject-object correlation would be established thereby preventing us, subjects, from ever being able to know if what we are observing is what is really there, ie an objective world. But if there is a Creator God, then when He created the universe He established that subject-object correlation, thereby giving us a rational basis for believing that we what we observe is what is actually there.
No, that's a false dichotomy, we don't know the universe's origin method, we can only speculate in terms of something demonstrable, otherwise you're making claims about reality you cannot substantiate meaningfully, just claim it's the "most reasonable" which is necessarily subjective based on knowledge and perspective

No, we emerge from biological processes that don't have a mind behind them, in the same way that life emerged from non life in a complex process that we are beginning to understand. You're suggesting falsely that because there is no agency behind nature in a nontheistic metaphysic that we cannot be anything but solipists, which is insane, because there are plenty of epistemological systems and few require the appeal to an outside agency for them to be cogent and defensible.

The subject object correlation you're referring to seems far less complex than you're making it: I perceive things with my senses and understand that I could be mistaken in my perception, but that doesn't mean I cannot have some degree of confidence that the things I interact with, the objects I perceive, are independent of my perception, otherwise my computer, my desk, my chair, would all cease to exist when I leave the house or go to sleep, because I no longer perceive or conceive of them. I as a subject can interact with objects, there isn't a need for the relationship to be established by an external agent apart from your assertion as such with no basis prior to it. We naturally interact with things and have an understanding of them as our brains continue to develop (mirror neurons come to mind, something I'm only mildly familiar with)

Object permanence in the basic notion of things persisting even when we are not interacting with them is already a decent case for the notion itself, even if it isn't absolutely conclusive: we could be in the Matrix and it's an elaborate trick in regards to simulating all these complex brain states that regard a consistent reality, but that boils down to speculation and not something that lends itself to a functional view of reality, because it's on the level of a paranoid schizophrenic believing something we have no good reason or evidence to believe is true apart form their delusions.

Seems to me you're dangerously close to a transcendental argument for God's existence that presuppositionalists like Darth Dawkins, Matt Slick and the like use to suggest that without God we cannot be confident or even provisionally certain that reality is the way it is independent of our perception, which needlessly muddies the waters in a discussion where the major disagreement is qualitative, particular conclusions about the model of reality versus the agreement we tend to have that reality works consistently.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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It certainly did. Saying that you should believe in Christianity because - according to you - it is superior to this or that religion is a very poor argument indeed.
Does it frustrate you when people refuse to answer questions or refuse to simply say they don’t know for sure and can’t give you the proof your asking for? I’ve only been reading most of the time on the forums and it actually is a little odd that very few people can admit they don’t know for sure.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Does it frustrate you when people refuse to answer questions or refuse to simply say they don’t know for sure and can’t give you the proof your asking for? I’ve only been reading most of the time on the forums and it actually is a little odd that very few people can admit they don’t know for sure.
I think most of us atheists would be quite content if theists would admit that they just don't know — admit that they take it all on faith.

Then maybe, just maybe, they would not try to control the world based on supposition.
 
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