The seven kings of Revelation 17:10

nolidad

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Reality check: Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Arminius lived in the 1500s (the Reformation began in 1517 with Martin Luther nailing his 95 Theses to the doors of All Saints Church in Wittenberg, Germany. John Darby started Dispensational theology more than three hundred years later.

Here is your first error! He reinstitutes dispensational theology. Covenant theology did not start gaining any real traction until Augustine who is the Father of modern covenant theology.

If the theology is "tarnished" then why are you arguing with me?

Because yours is just as tarnished, you just won't see that. The Basics of the theology are sound- where error happens is when men tryt o specifically define things we just can't. The best example is Lindsays late great planet earth and the creatures form the abyss are helicopters. Yo don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

So now it's all about you and your bona fides.

This op is about the futurism of Revelation 17:10. Everything else is irrelevant. The only reason DPism is relevant is because the whole futurism paradigm and much of the eschatology argued topically and off-topically under this op has its roots in a verifiably misguided theology started in the mid-1800s by John Darby and other apocalypticists of that era. It is a theology that departed from 1800 years of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. It has developed into a theology that departs from positions long held by the Church resulting in corrupt Christology, Ecclesiology, Soteriology, and Eschatology.

Long held by the church? So you believe in the Roman Christology, Ecclesiology, Soteriology and Eschatology?

That doesn't make you a futurist but a covenant theology holder with variations.

And no it departed from 1200 years of teaching held by Rome during the Dark ages! And when Christian thought departs from Scripture- we must resist those false thoughts, doctrines and practices.

But now you have me curious:

In summation tell me the heresy of dispensational Christilogy, Ecclesiology and Soteriology!
 
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nolidad

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[QUOTE

Irenaeus' statement is mis-interpreted, he wrote that "he [= John] was seen almost in our own times [= 2nd century]" not that "it [= Revelation] was seen" at the turn of the 2nd century[/QUOTE]

As John wrote while on Patmos it would not have been seen by many until the 2nd century. Christian Book Distributors was not a viable business then!:sorry:

JOhn wrote revelation near the end of the century. While most scholares place it in the mid to late 90's I can see it in the 80's as well.
 
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nolidad

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nolidad, I keep reading claims but I don't read a single word of support for claims made; nor do I read any actual discussion of these claims.


For example, I read the statement, "Much of what Darby, Chafer, and Larkin wrote is correct."

Okay. That is what you believe. Great. Where is the evidence that anything they wrote (relevant to this op) is correct? Who knows! I don't read a single word evidencing the statement much of what they wrote is correct.

Well I can't recall all teh minutae of what they wrote- but as the OP is about the list of cesars and trying to shoe horn them in to the book of revelation- I do not think (AFAICR) they even dealt with the cesars.

And I have shown that Nero could not be th eone that is!

He was not the sixth but the fifth if we listen to Roman historians.

Juliu Claudio though called cesar was not an emperoro. Augustus (Ocatvian) was the first recognized Roman Emperoro by most historians. Julius had formed a triumverate with Crassus and Pompey. Julius was never given the title Imperator but dicator perpetuo

So here is your evidence that Nero would have been a fifth and not the sixth as per the OP
 
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nolidad

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Already done. Should have read through the posts before posting all that. You've attempted to broach something already addressed. The discussion is not being furthered one word.

You are wasting my time.

Already addressed. Again: you are wasting my time.

Already addressed. I do not hold a 2 millennia gap exists between7 and 8. The op does but I do not. Not only are you revisiting already addressed content but on this particular matter I have already explicitly re-directed you to address the op and yet you continue to bring this irrelevancy to me.

You are not furthering the discussion at all. You are wasting my time.

Then cite the numbers of the posts, so I can read your musings. we are at over 200 posts.
 
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nolidad

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This op is about the futurism of Revelation 17:10. Everything else is irrelevant. The only reason DPism is relevant is because the whole futurism paradigm and much of the eschatology argued topically and off-topically under this op has its roots in a verifiably misguided theology started in the mid-1800s by John Darby and other apocalypticists of that era. It is a theology that departed from 1800 years of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. It has developed into a theology that departs from positions long held by the Church resulting in corrupt Christology, Ecclesiology, Soteriology, and Eschatology.

Adn as I have posted your futrism is dead wrong!

Nero was the fifth not the sixth! Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero were called Imperator!

Then we had the 3 cesars in one year! Galba Ortho and Vitellius.

Then started the Flavian Dynasty.

Nero had no empire wide mark, nor did he make an image that a pagan priest made come alive, and he did not brand anyone with any number so they couldn't buy or sell!
 
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nolidad

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I didn't mean to imply that you haven't read it carefully. I should have used a different way of saying my wanting you to look at the text for maybe the million time, and consider by the way it is worded that the three subdued kings don't necessarily have to be of the group of ten.

Sorry but the bible says they are: If you want to believe different that is yor privilege, but it makes you hold an unbiblical view!

Look Again!

Rev. 17:

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Now if you believe that the beast of Daniel 7:

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

If the three are not of teh ten horns- then you are forced to have two beasts with ten horns in the last days or find a ten horn empire with an eleventh that subdues three and the others give their allegiance to the eleventh.
 
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nolidad

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The formal position of the Roman Catholic Church, The Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church, and many other denominations is that of Amillennialism. Even when that is the case they do not make a given eschatological position necessity. Eschatology is not generally considered core. Many Dispensational Premillennialism make Christianity about eschatology.

Well this I know is a lie brought about by your hatred of dispensationalism and considering them wolves in sheeps clothing!

We make Christianity about Christ! Eschatology is just a small part of believing churches.
 
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nolidad

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In other words, DPism is only one of five views and when the others are considered together then DPism is a minority view. Very sensationalistically popularized, but not the majority. In comparison to Amillennialism, DPism is not the majority, either. No one would ever know that were they to measure this by the shelves of their local Christian book store.

And considering that most of the churches you mention are in steep decline or hold to apostate doctrines- what should that tell you about their eschatology.

Also doctrine is not established by democracy or majority opinion.
 
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nolidad

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You are twisting and perverting scripture to make it say something it does not state. He did continue. He continued a short space. You are denying scripture. You are denying history. You are denying the facts. You are denying reality. You are perverting it all to force scripture to fit your position, not the other way around.

What the Greek actually states is "when he shall have come, a little while him it behooves to remain." He will remain a little while, not continue. Look it up if you doubt the veracity of what you just read. Bow to scripture. Do not bow to some unidentified teacher of the 21st century trying to force a 21st century spin upon the text and subjugate God's word. Be as critical of your source as you are of my posts.



Galba meets the measure of scripture and Galba is what the first century reader would have understood as fulfillment of Rev. 17:10. They would not have understood that as a reference to a non-existent person who may or may not live in the 21st century.



Take a step back and try to gather some objectivity.

So you believe OTHO is the eigth, who is of the seven then. OK Got it.
 
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nolidad

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Reading more additions into the text.

Cursing yourself.

Revelation 22:18-19 KJV
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
.

Sure he was. And nothing you've posted proves otherwise.

Once again, you're adding things to the text the text never states. The only crown mentioned in Rev. 12 is that of the harlot.

Revelation 12:1-2
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

Who does scripture say might have been the woman with a crown of twelve stars? Who is it the Christians of the first century would have understood that to be? Neither are there any weeks mentioned in Rev. 12, the 70th or otherwise.

So, once again, your interpretations fail.

You are if you believe Nero was the king that "is" when Revelation was written.

Which is why your interpretations are so inane and bear little resemblance to the actual text of scripture.

No, it is not.

Oh look, now you are timeframe-setting.

Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

But you know it's not the distant future. How soon is it, Douggg?

No thanks. You watch while I continue working on expanding God's kingdom here and now with every opportunity God brings me. Don't want to be empty handed when he comes because I was idle watching instead of doing.


Nice chatting with you, Douggg. When you read end times arguments ask yourself "Is what I am reading what those in the first century would have understood?" because if it isn't possible for the first century reader to understand what a 21st century teacher is teaching then the 21st century teacher is wrong and you should stay as far away from that "teaching" as possible. One of the most basic and fundamental rules of proper exegesis is to understand scripture as the original writer intended and the original reader would have understood it.

Nero was. Galba remained for a little while.

Revelation 17:10-11
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. "



Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 1
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 2
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 3
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 4
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 5
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 6
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 7


Your links ot biblical exegesis, if you believe these are the rules- makes you a dispensationalist.
 
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nolidad

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The word "dispensation" comes from the Greek word, "oikonomia," economy, administration, management, or an established set of standards, and carries with it the connotation of stewardship. Jesus uses the term in Luke 16 in his parable about the unrighteous steward.

Luke 16:1-13
"Now He was also saying to the disciples, 'There was a rich man who had a manager, and this manager was reported to him as squandering his possessions. And he called him and said to him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an accounting of your management, for you can no longer be manager' (oikonomien). The manager (oikonomos) said to himself, 'What shall I do, since my master is taking the management (oikonomian) away from me? I am not strong enough to dig; I am ashamed to beg. I know what I shall do, so that when I am removed from the management (oikonomias) people will welcome me into their homes.' And he summoned each one of his master's debtors, and he began saying to the first, 'How much do you owe my master?' And he said, 'A hundred measures of oil.' And he said to him, 'Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.' Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe?' And he said, 'A hundred measures of wheat.' He said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty.' And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light. And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal dwellings. He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much. Therefore if you have not been faithful in the use of unrighteous wealth, who will entrust the true riches to you? And if you have not been faithful in the use of that which is another's, who will give you that which is your own? No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.'"

Paul uses the term in 1 Cor. 9:17 when he writes, "For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship (oikonomian) entrusted to me." or as the KJV translates it, "For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me."

In Colossioans 1:25 we read,

1 Colossians 1:25 NAS
"Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship (oikonomian) from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,"

1 Colossians 1:25 KJV
"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation (oikonomian) of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;"

1 Colossians 1:25 NIV
"I have become its servant by the commission (oikonomian) God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness--"

So the term can be found in scripture. However, John Darby radically departed from the Church's historical treatment of the term going all back through the early Church fathers (ECFs). Historically any mention of "dispensation" occurred in context of "covenant." This is not to say they were asserting Covenant Theology as it contemporarily exists. They simply did not see any distinctions between God's covenants and God's dispensations. Similarly, the church has (generally) seen the covenants and the revelation of scripture itself) as a single cohesive but progressive revelation with each covenant initiated by God all covered or subordinate under the one eventually fulfilled covenant found in Christ that existed before the world was creates (1 Pet. 1:20).

So like many, many other streams of thought, doctrinal positions, and relevant practice, Darby departed from what had up to his point been eighteen hundred years of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. Darby argued the dispensations are distinct and unrelated and Dispensationalism continues to teach this position. This is most obvious in their separation of the Jews in the Abrahamic Covenant from the Church. Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary says the following in his book titled, "Dispensationalism," in which he explains dispensations in Dispensational Theology,

"To quote the Century Dictionary bearing on the theological import of the word: '(a) The method or scheme by which God has at different times developed his purpose, and revealed himself to man; or the body of privileges bestowed, and the duties and responsibilities enjoined, in connection with that scheme or method of revelation as the Old of Jewish dispensation; the New Gospel dispensation..."

The Wikipedia article of Dispensationalism summaries the matter well,

"Progressive revelation is the doctrine in Christianity that each successive book of the Bible provides further revelation of God and His program..... Dispensationalism, however, holds that both the Old Testament and New Testament are interpreted using literal grammatical-historical interpretation. As a result, they reject the idea that the meaning of the Old Testament was hidden and that the New Testament can alter the straightforward meaning of the Old Testament. Their view of progressive revelation is that the New Testament contains new information which can build on the Old Testament but cannot change its meaning."

The various dispensations may go by different names or labels but generally you will find seven listed. Pre-sin, Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Moses, Jesus, for example, or the dispensations of innocence, conscience, human governance, promise, law grace, and the millennium (as another example). There some who assert variations, other may have as many as nine, but Dispensationalism generally asserts seven. They've built a whole theology around the word, "oikonomia".

Not a theology- but a cohesive hermeneutic.

My theology is established by Scripture as written and not interpreted by the majority of the church! If it was I would be a marist.
 
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nolidad

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Already done. Should have read through the posts before posting all that. You've attempted to broach something already addressed. The discussion is not being furthered one word.

You are wasting my time.

Already addressed. Again: you are wasting my time.

Already addressed. I do not hold a 2 millennia gap exists between7 and 8. The op does but I do not. Not only are you revisiting already addressed content but on this particular matter I have already explicitly re-directed you to address the op and yet you continue to bring this irrelevancy to me.

You are not furthering the discussion at all. You are wasting my time.

Well went back and looked at all your posts. No you did not address them. YOu simply made ex-cathedra statemetns and expect all to bow down to your self assumed intellectual superiority.

If REvelation is pre 70Ad whatr was teh mark
when was it administerd
when did the angel fly warning of the mark
when did the armies of a cesar gather to battle Jesus
when did Jesus return on a white horse!

You di dnot address these here on this thread. You love to summarize and criticize your own summations of someone who you disagree with!
 
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summerville

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Not a theology- but a cohesive hermeneutic.

My theology is established by Scripture as written and not interpreted by the majority of the church! If it was I would be a marist.

No apostle or disciple or Jesus ever mentioned dispensations.
 
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summerville

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The question is, Is the passage in question referring to the church, Israel or the Gentiles (1 Cor. 10.32). The Lord Jesus relates to all three.

Corinthians doesn't mention dispensations either.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Corinthians doesn't mention dispensations either.
Ephesians 1.10 has it in the AV.

While it may be convenient for some leaders to lump together church, Israel and even sometimes the Gentiles into one amorphous entity, Scripture does make this distinctions and this is what is meant by dispensational truth.
 
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summerville

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Ephesians 1.10 has it in the AV.

While it may be convenient for some leaders to lump together church, Israel and even sometimes the Gentiles into one amorphous entity, Scripture does make this distinctions and this is what is meant by dispensational truth.

Dispensation means exemption from a rule or usual requirement.

I can't go along with Darby, Scofield, Hal Lindsey or Jerry Falwell. IMO they are charlatans.
 
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