Being proud is not good!

Peter John said:

That is so wrong,

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No.
If it were, then people with low, or no, self esteem would be in a good place - worthy of emulation. Low self esteem can lead to all kinds of problems; self loathing, anorexia, even suicide attempts. Someone who constantly says "I'm worthless and useless at ....." is rubbishing someone whom GOD has made in his image.

Jesus told us to love our neighbour as ourselves. We are not to love ourselves SO much that we are the centre of our lives; that our lives revolve around us and our perceived wants/rights and we forget about others. But a certain amount of healthy self love and esteem are important.

Peter John said:

That is so wrong, we only esteem God, & self, & love of self, opposes God, as in Lk9v23
“If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

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You're miss applying that verse and you obviously don't know what self esteem means.

Peter John said:

No, we want them to see they are pleased with us, by saying their proud is putting their kids above others, & therefore claiming their better parents!

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My parents never said to me, after getting A's, "We're proud of you because you are smarter than other kids, and we are superior parents." They said, "I'm proud of you, because you worked hard, and succeeded." That's it. I was the best me I could be, no comparison to others.

Peter John said:

I'd like to hear the conversation, if it were possible, saying to God that you are proud of Him!

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I don't know why you do it, Father, don't know if we are worth it, if I am worth it. I try my best, but still make mistakes, and you love me either way. I try to love my neighbor as myself, but pray for your love, not some knockoff I have, because I don't know how to love the unlovable. And then I remember, you love me, simply because I exist. You love me even when I ddn't love myself. I don't deserve any of it, not even your forgiveness, because I made conscious choices to be selfish rather than love my neighbor. And still, you say in that inner voice, "I love you," until you break through, and show me that you believe me worthy of love, each of us, you would leave the 99 to find me, you would die for just me if you had to, any one of us. And if you can love me that much, maybe I can release myself from my own prison, my crime being how much we hate ourselves, and see ourselves as made in your image, our souls made of love, our lives understanding how to forgive as you do, how to love unconditionally, how to give without asking anything in return, as you give to us, to humble ourselves before others, as you humbled yourself as Jesus, a baby born in a barn, a commoner, not a king, someone like us, all to teach us how to love our neighbor, and in so, love and obey you, Father.

I'm proud to call myself your child.

Peter John said:

You have to define what 'love our neighbour' means. Love is Agape, a Godly love defined in 2Jn6

This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

We cannot always do His commandments, when sin keeps interfereing, but it also means to guard them in our hearts. To love your neighbour, is to preach God's Truth to them, even though they might reject it, you have walked in God's commandments. People with all sorts of problems need to trust that God knows best, & if they are chosen, God will see to it that He opens their hearts to His Truth, which in turn will ease their burdens.

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33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me,H)"I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’J)"

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

Do you really not know what "love your neighbor" means, or pretend not to know? The sheep showed love to their neighbor.

In the Good Samaritan, most likely, the priest and Levite walked past the beaten man, because of laws about being cleanliness, and so avoided the man, not even checking if he was alive or dead.

So, they were keeping the commandments, but misses the whole point, whereas the Samaritan, the enemy of Jews, showed love, empathy, compassion, asked for nothing in return, helped the beaten Jew as he would want someone to help him, love with no boundaries.

Who, in that story, does Christ exalt as exemplary? The person obeying individual commandments, or the two important ones - loving our neighbor as ourselves, and loving God?

If we say we love God but hate our neighbor, we are not being honest, for how can we love God whom we haven't seen if we can't love our neighbor whom we have seen?

That is what Christ taught. Not that we should be demanding others follow God. Not the Old Covenant and a laundry list of laws. We are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves "if your neighbor asks for your shirt, offer your coat. If he asks to walk with him a mile, walk 3." The Gospel is about forgiving one another, and showing us how to love one another. I don't understand how anyone can preach the Gospel not understanding "love your neighbor," and restricting to obedience of laws, as in the Old Covenant, rather than the new covenant that demonstrates love by having empathy (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the ill.) "All of the other laws are fulfilled in the two" because you don't steal from your neighbor whom you love, etc.

Before I hear it (Salvation based on works!!), notice, the sheep said, "When? When did I feed you?" They weren't doing it by following commandments. They weren't doing it to get into heaven. They did it because with love in their heart, the felt empathy, and wanted to feed the hungry for its own sake.

That's the simplicity of the Gospel, why one must become like a child.

The problem with adults is we get into, quite honestly, ridiculous arguments, mostly because we refuse to admit our understanding is way off.

The verse preceding the one you quote to support no loving ourselves says

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple"

Do you hate your parents? Hate your kids, and tell them so?
Do you hate your wife, or love Jesus?

See how ridiculous that conversation is? I could argue that "the bible is really clear that you should hate everyone in your family," but it shows the HS is not at work in my life, because knowing the bible was translated, doesn't mean what it says at face value. It would be irresponsible to quote this verse and demand you hate your spouse to be a Real Christian (TM).

And so, to claim God wants us to live, not with pride in our lives, not with self-love in our hearts, but self-loathing, and shame, is a lie from Satan to rob from the joy of life.

Have you ever been around a person who loves themself with self confidence? They have a tendency to compliment others, encourage others, have empathy for others.

People with shame, insecurities, or self loathing are the ones who need to talk bad about others to bring them down, need to constantly tell others that they are better than they are because it helps them combat the truth that the are inadequate - not rich enough, not pretty or handsome enough, not popular enough. The gang up on the 1 because they want to assuage the obvious unfairness of outnumbering someone, the insecurity goes that deep.

Why would God want you to follow Christ and be miserable, and lashing out at everyone else?

I think part of the problem with the thread is debating semantics. I once discussed with someone very literal what Christ meant by responding "70 x 7."

I believe the disciple was saying, "How many tumes should I forgive my neighbor. Is 7 times enough?" And Christ was responding, "Endlessly - aa many times as you wish to be forgiven."

The poster said, "Nope. Christ meant 490 times."

Technically, yes that is what Christ said, but Christ, when asked if he should forgive 7 times, did not respond, "um..490 times. Exactly. Keep a ledger."

Just doesn't make a lot of sense.

He said "70 times that amount." And thr HS will show you that Christ gave an infinite number of times.

So, I often find these threads being a debate of ego, who is right, rather than searching together for truth by comparing our understanding.

fhansen said:

In church language historically, pride is the deadliest of the deadly sins. This is because pride, by its nature, opposes and separates us from God. It's the basis of the state known as "original sin" because of this unnatural separation that it causes. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). Adam thought otherwise-he preferred himself to God as one teaching I'm familiar with puts it. But man was made for communion with God.

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A better word to make this understandable in English is "haughty." To have haughtiness, you believe yourself above others, better than others, etc. As a result, you judge other people unfairly, refuse to believe you could be wrong, mistreat your waiter because you have no respect for people you view as servants... And your* sin? What do yiu mean, your* sin?

So, you don't even need God. You are the Pharisee of the parable who bragged about himself with arrogance, needing the tax collector to condemn to prove to God how great the Pharisee was.

This is very different them simply having love for yourself, taking care of yourself, and having some reference to what loving oneself means, and then showing that same concern to others - empathy.

In my walk, when I was late into my 40s, God kept telling me repeatedly, I love you. Please believe me.

But because the lie that "I am sinful, I am an abomination, I am unworthy of love, " had taken root both from messages of the world and the church, I didn't allow myself to accept God's love pouring out mine, and refusing his.

And after years of living like this, accepted his love for the first time, began to love myself, understood how to love others.

There is no honor in hating yourself, living in shame, or thinking God wants a life of suffering. And too often, the message conveyed is we are unworthy sinners, so the guy with the blowhorn doesn't spread the message of love, but of condemnation, can only offer the fear of hell, and avoiding eternal punishment.

That is not what my walk is about. I've even said to street preachers, "I focus in my relationship with God now, and loving my neighbor now, in this life, understanding living Christ's love today and every day I have on Earth. I don't understand how your walk is about you avoiding some future punishment."

I think love and pride are two different things. Love is pure. It doesn't need any accomplishment. I love my child for who she is and not because of what she does.
Pride can be dengerous as I've experienced. It can separate us from people very easily and it can separate us from God. Nothing wronge with self esteam if its in the right amount to know our capacity and helps us to serve others. Thats why we are here.

Peter John said:

There is none who does good, no, not one.”

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What did Jesus mean in Luke 18?

18 A ruler asked Jesus, `Good Teacher, what must I do so that I will live for ever?'

19 Jesus answered him, `Why do you call me good? Only one is good, and that is God.

I attended a Free Will Baptist church while going to college. One evening we had a footwashing / communion service. Having never been to one my flesh fought me all the way to church that night. During the service there was such tears and shouting, wow! They would pray over you as they washed the feet and it was really a dramatic sight. It is really done decent and there is such a clean spiritual sensation afterwards as I cannot describe. And I came out with a clean sensation feeling cleansed of the ego.

Peter John said:

I'd like to hear the conversation, if it were possible, saying to God that you are proud of Him!

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Lol, it almost sounds silly, doesn't it? As though God should care what something as little and inconsequential as me thinks --yet he does. He is amazing.

Peter John said:

That is so wrong, we only esteem God, & self, & love of self, opposes God, as in Lk9v23
“If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

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Agreed. In and of ourselves, we are nothing. It is only by God's purposes and use of us, and by his assessment alone, in that we are made for his purposes, and for his good pleasure, that we are worth anything --and that is an incredible amount of something, but not as we assess.

He is not like us.

Mark Quayle said:

Agreed. In and of ourselves, we are nothing. It is only by God's purposes and use of us, and by his assessment alone, in that we are made for his purposes, and for his good pleasure, that we are worth anything --and that is an incredible amount of something, but not as we assess.

He is not like us.

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But if God loves the world, doesn't that make us worthy of love. I've met people who refused love, as I had, because of that belief that we are unworthy of love, we are nothing, the only good within us is God, not ourselves. It was very unhealthy.

It also makes God sound like the parent that doesn't have a child to give it love, but has the child to give them love

If we are made in his image, we can strive to be like Christ, but if God is not like us, how can we be expected to live like Christ?

Peter John said:

You have to define what 'love our neighbour' means.

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No, my emphasis was on the last part of the command - love our neighbour as ourselves.
Someone with low self esteem does not love themselves; so how are they to love their neighbour?

Beanieboy said:

A better word to make this understandable in English is "haughty."

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Yes, I like Proverbs 21:4 here:

"Haughty eyes and a proud heart-- the unplowed field of the wicked--produce sin."

Arrogance and self-righteousness are related terms as well. Those attitudes "allow" for the moral evil, aka "sin", in this world. And here are some teachings on man I'm familiar with that I've come to appreciate BTW:

355 "God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them."218 Man occupies a unique place in creation: (I) he is "in the image of God"; (II) in his own nature he unites the spiritual and material worlds; (III) he is created "male and female"; (IV) God established him in his friendship.

356 Of all visible creatures only man is "able to know and love his creator".219 He is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake",220 and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God's own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:

"What made you establish man in so great a dignity? Certainly the incalculable love by which you have looked on your creature in yourself! You are taken with love for her; for by love indeed you created her, by love you have given her a being capable of tasting your eternal Good." 221

357 Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. And he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.

358 God created everything for man,222 but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him:

"What is it that is about to be created, that enjoys such honor? It is man that great and wonderful living creature, more precious in the eyes of God than all other creatures! For him the heavens and the earth, the sea and all the rest of creation exist. God attached so much importance to his salvation that he did not spare his own Son for the sake of man. Nor does he ever cease to work, trying every possible means, until he has raised man up to himself and made him sit at his right hand." St John Chrysostom.

None of this is meant to disavow the fact that fallen man is unable and/or unwilling to achieve the potential or purpose that God created him for, on his own at least. But it's the flip side of the misplaced belief that man is nothing more than a worthless wretch who should do nothing more than acknowledge that fact forever, as if God's purpose isn't to restore him -and elevate him to an even higher level yet perhaps. God means to restore and produce justice/righteousness in His wayward creation, not to suddenly decide to ignore it, since the advent and work of His Son. There's nothing right and good about remaining in our sin, even as we desperately need Him in order to begin to overcome it, let alone to "have life and life abundantly", the life He wants for all of us. The above teachings tell us something of who man is in his essence, who he is in God’s eyes, who he can and should be.

Beanieboy said:

But if God loves the world, doesn't that make us worthy of love. I've met people who refused love, as I had, because of that belief that we are unworthy of love, we are nothing, the only good within us is God, not ourselves. It was very unhealthy.

It also makes God sound like the parent that doesn't have a child to give it love, but has the child to give them love

If we are made in his image, we can strive to be like Christ, but if God is not like us, how can we be expected to live like Christ?

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Yes, but not in and of ourselves. We are not intrinsically of value, apart from God. Our value is only according to his reason for making us.

I am not saying that the lost are worthless. (That would be to claim that the found are better than the lost --something that lacks proof.)

We are made for him --not for ourselves. We are not even real, in a sense, until we are complete beings as what he made us for --being one with him.

God is not made in our image.

ReesePiece23 said:

Yeah, but you can paint a painting, write a poem or make a clay pot (or whatever), acknowledge that God gave you a gift, and be grateful that you have it.

What's the point in being here otherwise? Are we all just supposed to wait until we die before we're allowed to experience any sort of happiness?

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So true.