Daughter (18yrs) wants to sleep over at her boyfriend's house

createdtoworship said:

sir please don't mock my position with assuming I am for arranged marriages.

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I meant no disrespect. Mocking was not my purpose. It was an honest question.

You already gave your one reason for dating 'to get to know someone'.

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Correct. A personal/individual knowledge outside of a group friendship.
Also - once someone becomes a "friend" it pretty much eliminates any romantic possibility.

So simply being friends up until an engagement would be preferred.

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Perhaps. But I see that a step is missing to take you from platonic group friendship to an individual attraction where you are praying about going to engagement.

I realize they date for two shallow reasons, not really biblical ones. mainly to say 'I have a boyfriend, or girlfriend as a possessive trait' and secondly to be physical. Neither of those are honored by God before marriage.

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While i agree that becoming physical (to some point) is not honored by God, I see nothing in scripture to say one way or the other on having a boy/girl friend. And to definitely say "God does not honor it" to me is a reach I do not want to take, since it is putting my words in God's mouth.

ot

createdtoworship said:

you guys are doing a good job. I haven't had that situation yet, our daughter is only 14, and we told her she can't date till she is 18. I mean what is the point of dating if you can't make out, have sex etc etc. I mean really? All that stuff is forbidden by scripture for a non married person to do, so dating is really not even remotely applicable till after 18. Many many will fight me on that, and that is A-okay. I will stand by it If they can find a reason for dating as a teen, then I may change my mind. I mean what can't you do as friends, that you can only do as a dating couple? It all involves physical. So that is what I mean. But your situation is a 19 year old, and you are having issues still with that age. So I am thinking, 21 sounds real good about now. Or how about after college? Maybe I just want to keep my little girl forever at that point.

But anyway here are some video's aimed for college age adults and older talking about dating and courting, from a university college fellowship:

1. Single / Dating / Engaged / Married - Breakaway Ministries
2. Dating, Courtship, and Marriage - Paul Washer - YouTube

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The point of dating is meeting people with a view to courtship; not make out, have sex etc.

Dave-W said:

I meant no disrespect. Mocking was not my purpose. It was an honest question.

Correct. A personal/individual knowledge outside of a group friendship.
Also - once someone becomes a "friend" it pretty much eliminates any romantic possibility.

Perhaps. But I see that a step is missing to take you from platonic group friendship to an individual attraction where you are praying about going to engagement.

While i agree that becoming physical (to some point) is not honored by God, I see nothing in scripture to say one way or the other on having a boy/girl friend. And to definitely say "God does not honor it" to me is a reach I do not want to take, since it is putting my words in God's mouth.

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Sir again the Bible does not allow people who are not married to own one another. However after marriage it literally says we are the others body. So you already said being physical is not biblical, now we have already establushed that possessing another person is unbiblical. Those are the only 2 unique reasons to date. Getting to know someone can occur on the friend level. I really wish someone told me this stuff in highschool.

coffee4u said:

The point of dating is meeting people with a view to courtship; not make out, have sex etc.

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Kissing is a gateway drug. It only leads to other actions. I can also say why hug? Why stroke her knee with your finger, why do any of that if you are not for sure that's your spouse? You are literally making out with someone esles spouse. Your spouse could be out there and politely dating someone else(not you). And the guy likes to be physical. How do you feel about that?

createdtoworship said:

Those are the only 2 unique reasons to date.

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I think there is at least one other, and that is to learn about yourself in relationships, and to learn relationship skills.

There are things you will learn about yourself from dating that you won't learn from friendship. And those are important lessons to take into marriage. And at the same time, in a dating relationship that becomes serious, you'll have to learn communication, conflict resolution and so on (again, in a way that you typically don't in friendships), which is also an important set of skills to take into marriage.

Formal marriage preparation can only do so much; having other (appropriate) experiences to reflect on and learn from is invaluable.

createdtoworship said:

Kissing is a gateway drug. It only leads to other actions. I can also say why hug? Why stroke her knee with your finger, why do any of that if you are not for sure that's your spouse? You are literally making out with someone esles spouse. You spouse could be out there and could be just politely daring someone else. And the guy likes to be physical. How do you feel about that?

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You seem to be under the impression that dating is for making out, it is not. It is for getting to know a person to know if they could be someone to court. 1-3 dates should suffice to know this. This is enough time to talk and know if you share some base values, interests and attraction. If you don't mesh at all at that point you should be able to part amicably. Just because you find someone attractive doesn't mean you start kissing and hugging after just meeting them. The only one talking about making out and stroking knees is you.

Paidiske said:

I think there is at least one other, and that is to learn about yourself in relationships, and to learn relationship skills.

There are things you will learn about yourself from dating that you won't learn from friendship. And those are important lessons to take into marriage. And at the same time, in a dating relationship that becomes serious, you'll have to learn communication, conflict resolution and so on (again, in a way that you typically don't in friendships), which is also an important set of skills to take into marriage.

Formal marriage preparation can only do so much; having other (appropriate) experiences to reflect on and learn from is invaluable.

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I am sure there are things you learn while your dating, usually mistakes you make because of being too physical, having you heart broken because someone you "possessed' found someone else. I would say I don't believe there are any positive things to learn while dating. That cannot be learned in friendship and then marriage later.

coffee4u said:

You seem to be under the impression that dating is for making out, it is not. It is for getting to know a person to know if they could be someone to court. 1-3 dates should suffice to know this. This is enough time to talk and know if you share some base values, interests and attraction. If you don't mesh at all at that point you should be able to part amicably. Just because you find someone attractive doesn't mean you start kissing and hugging after just meeting them. The only one talking about making out and stroking knees is you.

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well I must say that many 'single men won't fess up to this.' But married men have no shame in confessing this....And women, may disagree entirely on it. Cuddling to her is her drug. But realize that cuddling as well is being too physical. You don't have to be making out to be physical, you can be rubbing their leg, stroking an arm, or a host of things that christians try to get away with while dating. Non of that is Biblical. I am still watching this series, but maybe you guys should watch some of this:

Dating: HOW pt. 1


But ultimately you say "getting to know them." Well you can get to know them as friends. Again there is nothing that cannot be done in a friendship. You can go to movies with friends, out to dinner, go to the beach, hike in a park. All that can be done as friends. What I presume most mean when they say 'get to know' is to get to know them physically. You can have long calls into the night with a friend, talk about politics, and theology, and environment. You don't need to be dating to have a 'good friend.' Even a 'special friend.' Meaning you have a commitment together, but you are not physical. But ultimately the Bible says to not 'awake love' until it pleases. Meaning don't fall in love until you are sure you are ready, that you have a good friend that you already know, and that is a on fire christian.

"I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem,
By the gazelles or by the does of the field,
Do not stir up nor awaken love
Until it pleases." Song of Solomon 2:7

don't get me wrong, people can date, as long as they don't kiss, cuddle, pet, groom or any of the little terms I don't even know anymore, no physical aspect at all. No long hugs. All that stuff is not appropriate for a young person who doesn't even know if they can handle a serious relationship. Lastly, you don't own another person, even in dating. They are not yours. You know the little valentines hearts that say "forever mine' or whatever. That does not apply to anything other than marriage. So when realizing the limitations of dating, it becomes the same thing as 'good friends.' I mean you can be committed special friends. But as far as loving another person, God wants us to love everyone equally. We are not just to love another person and give our heart to one other person. We are to give our heart to everyone, even our enemies. That is what I mean.

createdtoworship said:

I am sure there are things you learn while your dating, usually mistakes you make because of being too physical, having you heart broken because someone you "possessed' found someone else. I would say I don't believe there are any positive things to learn while dating. That cannot be learned in friendship and then marriage later.

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No, that's not the type of thing I'm talking about at all. When I think about my own dating experience, for one example, I realise that I learned about how important it is for me to be respected and treated as an equal by my spouse (I learned that by dating a guy who was looking for a bit of a doormat of a wife); I wouldn't necessarily have learned that in the same way from friends because the dynamics of friendship are different.

Paidiske said:

No, that's not the type of thing I'm talking about at all. When I think about my own dating experience, for one example, I realise that I learned about how important it is for me to be respected and treated as an equal by my spouse (I learned that by dating a guy who was looking for a bit of a doormat of a wife); I wouldn't necessarily have learned that in the same way from friends because the dynamics of friendship are different.

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All other qualifications, for example charm, etc, can all be seen within a friendship. There is no evidence that adding the additional emotional baggage of a relationship, that cannot manifest in a full relationship (they are not fully commited, nor are they able to be physical at all), that this is a better relationship than a friendship. See I don't know about you, but my friends knew me better than my girlfriend, she only saw what I wanted her to see. See people can pretend. But in a friendship over years, the real person comes out. For example if a friend opens the door for you for over five years, that is a better snapshot of their personality than say a date from a new relationship. That guy could just be opening the door, because He is looking forward to making out later. I don't mean to be crass, but ultimately if physical aspects of the relationship are their you set yourself up to be used. I know it's sad, but guys can use women like that. I know I did. I believe I cared for my girlfriend and had genuine feelings for her, but it was hard to say what feelings were because I though she was attractive, or because I liked her as a genuine person. I loved her personality but in some ways I didn't. And because our relationships was physical, then when I went to college and she stayed home she was looking for that 'physical touch' that I couldn't give her, and she started dating my friend. That was my sin returning on my head. My sin of impurity.

createdtoworship said:

All other qualifications, for example charm, etc, can all be seen within a friendship. There is no evidence that adding the additional emotional baggage of a relationship, that cannot manifest in a full relationship (they are not fully commited, nor are they able to be physical at all), that this is a better relationship than a friendship. See I don't know about you, but my friends knew me better than my girlfriend, she only saw what I wanted her to see. See people can pretend. But in a friendship over years, the real person comes out. For example if a friend opens the door for you for over five years, that is a better snapshot of their personality than say a date from a new relationship. That guy could just be opening the door, because He is looking forward to making out later. I don't mean to be crass, but ultimately if physical aspects of the relationship are their you set yourself up to be used. I know it's sad, but guys can use women like that. I know I did. I believe I cared for my girlfriend and had genuine feelings for her, but it was hard to say what feelings were because I though she was attractive, or because I liked her as a genuine person. I loved her personality but in some ways I didn't. And because our relationships was physical, then when I went to college and she stayed home she was looking for that 'physical touch' that I couldn't give her, and she started dating my friend. That was my sin returning on my head. My sin of impurity.

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Yes, that's your history. It's not everybody's history.

I disagree that friendship will show you the same things, because people behave differently towards their friends than they do to a boyfriend/girlfriend. (And no, I'm not just talking about physicality).

Paidiske said:

Yes, that's your history. It's not everybody's history.

I disagree that friendship will show you the same things, because people behave differently towards their friends than they do to a boyfriend/girlfriend. (And no, I'm not just talking about physicality).

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again so say a boy opens a door for a girl, how do you know he isn't just doing it so he can "score later." A friend on the other hand, you know that he has pure motive for opening a door for a woman, there is no possibility of a score or any physical interaction. I hate to sound so crass, but I dont' know how else to reveal that guys that date young women, they are thinking about sex and scoring. Godly christian men are thinking about marriage. But the current statistics are that people are marrying at age 27, that is almost ten years out of highschool. Thats a long time to not have any physical interaction. So most of them will compromise. But that is not God's best. The point is seek God, finish your school, land your jobs. And pray. God will bring someone, but if HE does, dont' jump into a relationship. Get to know them as friends, see how they do around your friends, and if they show respect for you around your family, his family, your friends and his friends. Good friends can go all those places. There is absolutely no need for romance, if you cannot entertain it. Again I wish someone told me this when I was younger, I lost my virginity to a girl who worked at a christian bookstore as a manager. She was divorced, and she was hurting and I thought that there is no better way to show love to someone who had a husband cheat on her than to show her that I loved only her and was committed to her by giving her my virginity. It was a sin and it was a mistake. And I regret it every day. I was in ministry at the time, as an evangelism leader and worship leader. The next week she proceeded to tell everyone in our college group that she slept with me, and she literally boasted to everyone. I was devastated, she didn't go to her church and tell them, she went to my church and told everyone. It was God allowing my sin to return on my head. People left the church ultimately, it caused a ruckas. My evangelism ministry eventually stopped, after a few more years. Slowly over the course of about five years I was still living in disobedience and God removed the ministries I was in, I was in the process of writing a book and the pastoral staff asked me not to be a deacon anymore. If people in ministry would just listen to my advice here, it's not that I haven't made these mistakes myself. Don't date till your ready to marry. I eventually married and God is blessing my life again, but I haven't ever reentered ministry. At least not at a church.

createdtoworship said:

again so say a boy opens a door for a girl, how do you know he isn't just doing it so he can "score later."

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Don't you think young women get very experienced at working out who's interested in us as people, and who's just out to "score"?

createdtoworship said:

If people in ministry would just listen to my advice here, it's not that I haven't made these mistakes myself.

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The thing is, though, your experience isn't a good reason for nobody to date.

I could give you the counter-example of my experience of dating a guy for four years (with whom I never had sex), but I learned a huge amount from that time and that experience (and so did he). Now we're both happily married to other people, and I would say both of those marriages are better because of what we learned while dating.

Why should that sort of positive experience be forbidden everyone just because some people have a more negative experience?

createdtoworship said:

again so say a boy opens a door for a girl, how do you know he isn't just doing it so he can "score later." A friend on the other hand, you know that he has pure motive for opening a door for a woman, there is no possibility of a score or any physical interaction. I hate to sound so crass, but I dont' know how else to reveal that guys that date young women, they are thinking about sex and scoring. Godly christian men are thinking about marriage. But the current statistics are that people are marrying at age 27, that is almost ten years out of highschool. Thats a long time to not have any physical interaction. So most of them will compromise. But that is not God's best. The point is seek God, finish your school, land your jobs. And pray. God will bring someone, but if HE does, dont' jump into a relationship. Get to know them as friends, see how they do around your friends, and if they show respect for you around your family, his family, your friends and his friends. Good friends can go all those places. There is absolutely no need for romance, if you cannot entertain it. Again I wish someone told me this when I was younger, I lost my virginity to a girl who worked at a christian bookstore as a manager. She was divorced, and she was hurting and I thought that there is no better way to show love to someone who had a husband cheat on her than to show her that I loved only her and was commited to her by giving her my virginity. It was a sin and it was a mistake. And I regret it every day. I was in ministry at the time, as an evangelism leader and worship leader. The next week she proceeded to tell everyone in our college group that she scored with me, and she literally boasted to everyone. I was devastated. People left the church ultimately, it caused a ruckas. My evangelism ministry eventually stopped, after a few more years. Slowly over the course of about five years I was still living in disobedience and God removed the ministries I was in, I was in the process of writing a book and the pastoral staff asked me not to be a deacon anymore. If people in ministry would just listen to my advice here, it's not that I haven't made these mistakes myself. Don't date till your ready to marry.

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Then he has no business dating your daughter if she is still a minor. If she is an adult she needs to know how to handle herself. So what if he wants to 'score' she quickly tells him no and doesn't date him again. Most men can quickly tell the type of woman they are taking out on a date is. A woman gives off 'quick fling' or 'take home to mother' vibes. I am quite sure that divorcee was sending out signals that she was available for sex in contrast to a girl whose thoughts are more pure.

A man worthy of Christian woman is
First: A man of God
Two: Respectful and protective of her.

They may think about it but then should turn to God to repent and control themselves. If they are not mature enough to do so they have no business going out on a couples date and should be in a group.

As you yourself just prooved ^ Too young and too immature.

Age is not necessarily a good indicator of maturity either.

Paidiske said:

Don't you think young women get very experienced at working out who's interested in us as people, and who's just out to "score"?



The thing is, though, your experience isn't a good reason for nobody to date.

I could give you the counter-example of my experience of dating a guy for four years (with whom I never had sex), but I learned a huge amount from that time and that experience (and so did he). Now we're both happily married to other people, and I would say both of those marriages are better because of what we learned while dating.

Why should that sort of positive experience be forbidden everyone just because some people have a more negative experience?

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ok so I know this is sort of hard to take in, but when you were with someone else other than your spouse, you presumably kissed, maybe did something you are not proud of. Or you may have had a perfect ability to hold back, there are those people that have that ability. But my point is this.....you kissed someone elses husband. And your husband kissed someone elses wife. That alone should be enough reservation not to date. I mean if you really think about it, we should not be physical at all until after the marriage. do we really want our relationship being based on physicalness. I mean when you go to those dating apps, they are all bout physique and how you look as well as charm, they are not about spirituality or about personality. Also with the advent of things like dating apps, sexual disease has sky rocketed. All this stuff is a symptom of the problem, we are not waiting for who God called us to wait for, our spouse.

createdtoworship said:

But my point is this.....you kissed someone elses husband. And your husband kissed someone elses wife.

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No, I certainly don't agree with this view.

createdtoworship said:

I mean if you really think about it, we should not be physical at all until after the marriage.

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Nor do I agree with this.

createdtoworship said:

do we really want our relationship being based on physicalness.

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Who says they are?

createdtoworship said:

I mean when you go to those dating apps, they are all bout physique and how you look as well as charm, they are not about spirituality or about personality. Also with the advent of things like dating apps, sexual disease has sky rocketed. All this stuff is a symptom of the problem, we are not waiting for who God called us to wait for, our spouse.

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Well, I've never used a dating app. And I don't think dating apps and whatever problems they might have are a reason to say nobody should ever date.

ot

Paidiske said:

No, I certainly don't agree with this view.



Nor do I agree with this.



Who says they are?



Well, I've never used a dating app. And I don't think dating apps and whatever problems they might have are a reason to say nobody should ever date.

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well lets analyze this, I asked people what are the reasons to date someone. Most say "to get to know someone." Well you can do that in a friendship, probably more accurately than you can in a dating relationship. What people are really trying to say is that they want a warm body to cuddle with, and instead of "knowing them" they desire to really "know them romantically." That is why people date. The third reason people date is "be claimed." I mean we are lonely, adam was lonely he wanted eve. He saw all the animals they were paired off male and female, and he is like ...."where is my female?" So people desire to be with someone. Well again the Bible does not validate "claiming someone" who is not your spouse. God does not see the dating aspect of relationships. There are very little if any verses on dating, however there are many verses on marriage. And I know why, it's because there are not physical benefits, no claim-ability or anything to dating someone. So there is no point. Why date someone you can't kiss? Why say ....this is my boyfriend, this is my fiance, this is my date......when God only sees marriage. According to God you are single still. It is wiser to avoid temptation all together and just stay friends, at least you know where the lines are. But as soon as you kiss, you have to start drawing boundaries, what types of kisses and where can I kiss and get away with it? Is making out, but not having sex sinful? And all these compromises come up. But again I ask you the question. Imagine you are being physical with someone elses spouse. That should scare you. Because you don't know if that is your spouse till you are married. That could be someone elses spouse.

christine40 said:

told dates that I was "waiting for marriage" so that quickly crossed out men not ready to marry as they didn't ask me out past one or two dates

that lead me to husband who was ready for marriage who asked me to marry after 2 mos
we married within 6 mos of first date

think one knows when right person comes along

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see I think if people are focussed on marriage and not dating, then much of the problems resolve. The average age of a first child I think for women is 26 and the average age of first marriage is actually A YEAR LATER! That has been the first time that figure was inverted. That was 2016, I am sure it's worse now.