Is walking in the "free indeed" Jesus promised actually possible.... in THIS life?

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Gideons300

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We must ask ourselves. Are we sinning WILLFULLY?

If we find ourselves overtaken in disobedience, but like Paul in Romans 7, it crushes us to disobey, rhst is not willful disobedience. Paul was found crying out to the Father to deliver him, but to will was present with him, but as to the power to stop disobeying, he found it not.

So if this is you, God hears your cry and blessed forgiveness is given. Thank you Lord!

Bit I fear for some, there is no cry of "wretched man that I am!" There is no battle going in inside. There is deception, and a certain accepting of the sin as inevitable, but "praise God, we are forgiven, so why sweat it?"

I will mince no words here. This is dangerous ground. The only safety has been that this is what we have all been taught. But what we have been taught, if continued in, will lead to destruction.

God's grace was never meant to make up for our continuing in disobedience with no desire to break free of it. That, dear friends, is turning the grace of God into lasciviousness, and the Word we say we believe is stone cold clear on this subject.

"There remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain, fearful looking for of judgment."

I pray our ears are open to these hard-to-hear words.

blessings,

Gids
 
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Gideons300

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Thanks for sharing. Some may fail to see Grace in your testimony but keep going
I pray you are right. Grace is the power that delivers us from the old us. Grace teaches us the HOW of denying ungodliness in our lives, the HOW of walking in true obedience.

We do not do it. We CANNOT! But God can..... and will... if we simply will believe Him rather than what our heads have taught us.

"What must we do that we might work the works of God?"

That is what the seekers asked the Lord. He did not say try harder. He did not say get more serious. Neither did He tell them it was impossible. He simply told them to BELIEVE in Him whom God has sent.

Is that the question burning in our breasts? Do we long more than anything to please and obey Him? Or are we quite content to avoid the big sins, go to church and hold tight to our bus passes to Heaven? It is time for some heart honesty as we truly examine ourselves whether we be IN the faith.

blessings,

Gids
 
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Gideons300

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inappropriate contentography is a difficult thing to deal with, especially nowadays as it's so easy to obtain.
And that is true, IF we are still walking in our old natures.

I have been on the addicted side walking in unbelief as to what Christ accomplished for me. For me, it was not difficult at all, LOL. It was flat out impossible.

But I will make this testimony clear. As I have obeyed the Lord by believing who I am, what Christ actually accomplished for me by His death and resurrection, raising up the shield of faith He offers all of us, I have found God's promises to be yea and amen.

Here is a key we must not overlook. If we battle inappropriate content, we will fail. Oh, we may go a season without giving in, but that is not joyful overcoming but miserable hanging oning, LOL. As children of God, we have ONE sin that is our enemy. Unbelief. Get victory there and all the sins we thought were so strong, had no power.

The power of sin is found in the old man. Believe that is still us, and whatever sin that is our nemesis will remain our nemesis. Put on our new nature by an act of audacious faith, and glory to God, we discover how strong God is IN us.

blessings,

Gideon
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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I never said any such thing and I don't appreciate words I did not write put into my posts, especially if they are put there for the sole purpose of derision.



So try it again. Pick something I actually posted and prove it incorrect. Otherwise, affirm it and let's discuss it relevant to the op.

OP accepted that you two weren't in agreement and that was okay after you wrote an essay picking apart his testimony and passively questioning his Faith up until now. He was polite and even apologized and blessed you ...what do you do? You try to stir the pot and start a confrontation so you can corner him.

Disgusting. I sincerely hope you're not a pastor. You clearly care far more about winning intellectual debates than being loving and helpful--all the while using flowery language and deflecting anything that comes at you so you can't be held responsible.
 
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Gideons300

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What path. Please be specific.
The path of thinking we will grow into victory. It is a lie. It is the same path that the israelites took in the wilderness, endless loops, always proceeding forward, never getting closer to the land of promise.

It leads to ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. That path is one we have all tread. It will never lead to joy, nor victory.

How difficult it is to finally admit we have somehow missed an important truth, that for all the gospel promises us, we have been able to enjoy little of it. We have been healed, but only slightly, saying 'peace, peace' when in truth, peace eludes us.

A shaking is coming. If we have barely. kept our heads above water when times are good, what will we do when the day of trouble arrives? God is opening eyes and hearts to the truth that sets us free indeed. His church will not go down with a whimper, but a roar of victory. Rhe question before each one of us is....

Will we remain satisfied with forgiveness and empty lives, or will we cry our for our deliverer, the Lord Jesus Christ, to do for us exactly as He has promised us.... to set us free indeed?

blessings,

Gideon
 
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friend of

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Idk, for me, I wouldn't say progressive sanctification isn't a reality. It's been a reality for me when it came to me dying to fleshly lusts. I understand that our final and true victory is through Christ and we add nothing to that. I still would consider myself a sinner but I am trying to realize my victory in Christ when it comes to certain sins (related to inappropriate contento, for instance) I am also becoming more sensitive to sin in my life. This sensitivity is another aspect of my Faith walk that is progressing. I want to be sin free but I fail sometimes still, but progress has been made, I just wish it was made faster. Not that I'm trying to become perfect in the flesh, but the spirit wars against the flesh and vice versa. I just wish I always made sure the spirit wins from here on out.
 
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Josheb

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I've found through my own experience that when a man reaches the absolute bottom of himself with sin, he will call out to God for help.
Yep. That is exactly what I posted in my op reply. Thank you for affirming that truth. The challenge is to do so upon conversion from death to life and to learn how to do so consistently and victoriously in all domains of life. Less of us, more of Christ. In writing about justification via the Law Paul wrote this to the Galatians,

Galatians 2:17-21 ESV
"But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose."

Are we to think Paul had, as we both have posted about, come to the end of himself? The book of was written after his letter to the ekklesia in Galatia so it appears Romans 7 would indicate some growth remained. Gideon confesses he was that text's poster child. Who among us has not wondered if would wrest the title of Chief" away from Paul? If Paul did not attain this selflessness then what hope have we? Yet are we to believe the struggles Paul faced early on did not provide the maturity, unity, faithfulness, and Christ-likeness he wrote about to the Ephesians? Romans 8 would seem to confirm such growth.

What would Paul (or James, John, or Peter) have said to a pastor who struggled 38 years with a sexual sin? Of course, we already know the answer to this question because Paul addressed it early on in his first letter to Corinth

1 Corinthians 6:17-20 ESV
But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."
[/i]​

And John spoke about chronic ongoing sin in some decidedly harsh and seemingly intolerant terms.

1 John 3:4-10 ESV
"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."

And many a legalist has bludgeoned a believer to death with John's words. I think the answer lies in something Peter wrote,

2 Peter 1:3-11 NAS
"...His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."

I have found that part about remembering very important.

Thinking the crying out precedes the cleansing is the cart before the horse. We are much more likely to cry out to God when remembering the sanctification provided, not the other way around. Oddly enough, if we live a life characterized by repentance (and its accompanying sanctification) then we also reduce the need for crying out.

James 1:2-8
"Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."

And that sort of reluctance to rejoice, that sort of need for knowledge, that sort of double-mindedness is something we all can testify about. It is, as I previously stated, the normal Christian life. It is intended to lead to... maturity, unity, and Christ-likeness.
We can do one of two things when we see this happen to another. Point the finger at what he should have done from the very start. Or, praise God that he has found the truth he needed.
That is not entirely correct. We are not bound by two options. And if this op is as far as Gideon has gotten (and I trust from the last statement in the o that it is not as far as he has progressed, then he has not found the truth he needed.

And I am not being nitpicky, unkind, or in any way unchristlike to note the errors of what you just posted.
I choose to praise God that this Brother has found his deliverance.
Good for you. I am glad you can rejoice with those who rejoice and perhaps mourn with those who mourn. I choose to commend him for the accomplishments of God in his life and spur him on toward love and good deeds.

Such as mining the spiritual terrain within what is posted in this op.

If the latter will be received.

Psalm 141:5
"Let the righteous man strike me; let his rebuke be an act of loving devotion. It is oil for my head; let me not refuse it. For my prayer is ever against the deeds of the wicked."

Proverbs 27:6
"Faithful are the wounds of a friend..."

Proverbs 28:23
"He who rebukes a man will later find more favor than one who flatters with his tongue."

Where does 2 Timothy 3:16-17 fit within those two options, Charlie? I can be criticized for my response to this op to heart's desire but until something I actually posted is proven incorrect those in dissent are undermining their own dissent.

I might even venture to say the idea we have only two options - pointing fingers at what should have happened or praising God for what the sinner found - is part of the problem thatgot Gideon into the 38 years of servitude he suffered. If all he was left with was finger-pointing or praise then that left a wide desert for him to walk alone. I suspect he alludes to this when he mentions an accountability partner. No, Charlie those are is not our only options, and thinking there are only two options is a problem to be solved. Using that error to insinuate derision of others makes things worse.
 
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Lost4words

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For some, it can be easy to overcome sin. The same sin/s. For others, like me, it can be quite a battle.

I truly believe in the Mercy of Jesus. How many times did He say we should forgive? How many times do you think Jesus forgives?

Nobody in this world is 100% perfect.

For some, like me, it has been a long journey of suffering of which, only now, do i truly witness the darkness being lifted from my eyes! God works in mysterious ways. Praise be to Jesus!

Faith in Jesus. Faith in His cross. Faith in His resurrection. Faith in His undying Mercy. These are what matters. We suffer, yes. We offer up our sufferings to Jesus. We put ALL our trust in Him. We lay EVERYTHING at His feet.
 
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Charlie24

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Yep. That is exactly what I posted in my op reply. Thank you for affirming that truth. The challenge is to do so upon conversion from death to life and to learn how to do so consistently and victoriously in all domains of life. Less of us, more of Christ. In writing about justification via the Law Paul wrote this to the Galatians,

Galatians 2:17-21 ESV
"But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose."

Are we to think Paul had, as we both have posted about, come to the end of himself? The book of was written after his letter to the ekklesia in Galatia so it appears Romans 7 would indicate some growth remained. Gideon confesses he was that text's poster child. Who among us has not wondered if would wrest the title of Chief" away from Paul? If Paul did not attain this selflessness then what hope have we? Yet are we to believe the struggles Paul faced early on did not provide the maturity, unity, faithfulness, and Christ-likeness he wrote about to the Ephesians? Romans 8 would seem to confirm such growth.

What would Paul (or James, John, or Peter) have said to a pastor who struggled 38 years with a sexual sin? Of course, we already know the answer to this question because Paul addressed it early on in his first letter to Corinth

1 Corinthians 6:17-20 ESV
But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."
[/i]​

And John spoke about chronic ongoing sin in some decidedly harsh and seemingly intolerant terms.

1 John 3:4-10 ESV
"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."

And many a legalist has bludgeoned a believer to death with John's words. I think the answer lies in something Peter wrote,

2 Peter 1:3-11 NAS
"...His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."

I have found that part about remembering very important.

Thinking the crying out precedes the cleansing is the cart before the horse. We are much more likely to cry out to God when remembering the sanctification provided, not the other way around. Oddly enough, if we live a life characterized by repentance (and its accompanying sanctification) then we also reduce the need for crying out.

James 1:2-8
"Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."

And that sort of reluctance to rejoice, that sort of need for knowledge, that sort of double-mindedness is something we all can testify about. It is, as I previously stated, the normal Christian life. It is intended to lead to... maturity, unity, and Christ-likeness.

That is not entirely correct. We are not bound by two options. And if this op is as far as Gideon has gotten (and I trust from the last statement in the o that it is not as far as he has progressed, then he has not found the truth he needed.

And I am not being nitpicky, unkind, or in any way unchristlike to note the errors of what you just posted.

Good for you. I am glad you can rejoice with those who rejoice and perhaps mourn with those who mourn. I choose to commend him for the accomplishments of God in his life and spur him on toward love and good deeds.

Such as mining the spiritual terrain within what is posted in this op.

If the latter will be received.

Psalm 141:5
"Let the righteous man strike me; let his rebuke be an act of loving devotion. It is oil for my head; let me not refuse it. For my prayer is ever against the deeds of the wicked."

Proverbs 27:6
"Faithful are the wounds of a friend..."

Proverbs 28:23
"He who rebukes a man will later find more favor than one who flatters with his tongue."

Where does 2 Timothy 3:16-17 fit within those two options, Charlie? I can be criticized for my response to this op to heart's desire but until something I actually posted is proven incorrect those in dissent are undermining their own dissent.

I might even venture to say the idea we have only two options - pointing fingers at what should have happened or praising God for what the sinner found - is part of the problem thatgot Gideon into the 38 years of servitude he suffered. If all he was left with was finger-pointing or praise then that left a wide desert for him to walk alone. I suspect he alludes to this when he mentions an accountability partner. No, Charlie those are is not our only options, and thinking there are only two options is a problem to be solved. Using that error to insinuate derision of others makes things worse.

Now you want to nitpick me, or maybe anyone that disagrees with you.

Josheb, you're the guy that everyone wants of avoid. You find fault with anything that doesn't fit into your way of thinking.

The man pours his heart out in hopes to help someone who may have experienced the same and you stomp all over him.

That's not right and you know it. So just give it a rest!
 
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Josheb

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The path of thinking we will grow into victory. It is a lie.
It is not a lie.

It is interesting that this op speaks of Romans 7, but not Romans 8. It is what comes after Pauls battle within that we find the solution to his struggle(s).

Romans 8:18-39
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, 'For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we were considered sheep to be slaughtered.' But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

1 John 5:1-5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

Do I need to post the dozens of verses about our victory in Christ here and now? If I do will I receive derisive insinuations in response?
It may be something you have not yet learned in its fullness, but it is not a lie.
Scripture says otherwise. Perhaps this is something you have not yet learned.

You apparently fellowship where there is little victory and and little love and service. I say this based on what is stated in post #38...
Gideons300 in Post #38 said:
When do we finally afmit that after years of walking on this path, we are more religious perhhaps, but free indeed? No way.

There are millions in the world wanting to be free from their bad natures. And what have we offered them? Freedom from guilt perhaps. (but sadly, most Christians still feel guilty) But as to the ability to walk as an overcomer? We offer nothing, for we ourselves are still bound. And God weeps.

Why did the early church flourish as it did? Because men exclaimed "Behold how they love one another!". When was the laxt time you heard a lost person say that about the church? Yeah, me either.....

The world sees our lack. We do not... yet. ....we are about to blown away by what God has for us.
The irony is that you say the early church flourished.
Gideons300 in Post #38 said:
Why did the early church flourish as it did? Because men exclaimed "Behold how they love one another!". When was the laxt time you heard a lost person say that about the church? Yeah, me either.
They could flourish but we cannot. I hear people talking in praiseworthy terms about local congregations often. You are assuming the entire church and all its members have your experience and think and feel the way you do and this is not true or correct.

I am not espousing sinless perfectionism. We are the redeemed corrupted and corruptible sinners living in a corrupted world among the unredeemed corrupt.

It is the pessimism expressed in Post #38 that prompts such derision of the body and if we link your posts together then it appears 38 years in bondage to inappropriate contentography is involved and whatever root that sprang from.
Gideons300 in Post #7 said:
We do not seem in agreement, That is okay. At some point, perhaps we will. Be blessed.

Gids
Yes, perhaps we do not agree but that does not mean what I have posted is incorrect.
 
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Nancy Hale

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That's not true.

In the future say, "Nothing I tried worked," or "Nothing I tried worked the way I tried it." Don't say everything was tried and then X worked. This should have been learned somewhere in the 8 years as a pastor.
This is nitpicking. It's actually beyond nitpicking. Being a person who prefers things literal, I understand. But, also, being a person who cried out to God hundreds of times after my son died, then, at the end of myself, just (speaking my truth?) and having a life altering answer, I know what the OP means.
You're applying grammatical rules to someone's personal experience with God! You start your post off that way, can you see how that would be off putting? It's going to shadow any truth you may post later on.
Most often when ppl pray, they pray out of fear, I think. When you pray for traveling mercies, aren't you praying because you are afraid of breaking down or being in an accident? But, when you get to a certain point, you let go of everything; and I think that is what the OP is trying to relay.
I'm only writing this because you asked how you were nitpicking. Just by the sentence above my thoughts were you never experienced the type of prayer he spoke of and you were bragging. Later I thought you had no idea how woman think and wondered if you were Roman Catholic (not for the same reasons) then I concluded you were envious of his experience and felt a need to bring him down a peg.
I just felt so bad for him, having to read what you wrote, I didn't even have the heart to point out the part that bothered me (it was just one little sentence)
 
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Josheb

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OP accepted that you two weren't in agreement and that was okay...
Yep. He did do that. And I acknoweldged his position. His response does not make the op correct and it does not make my op-reply incorrect.
...after you wrote an essay picking apart his testimony and passively questioning his Faith up until now. .....You try to stir the pot and start a confrontation so you can corner him.
Except for the fact my posts are often long, none of that happened. You are bearing false witness and doing so without a single bit of actual evidence. You are speaking in vague euphemisms (stirring the pot), making appeals to ridicule ("disgusting") and misrepresenting what was actually posted.

And giving me the opportunity to show it for what it is!

All you or anyone else has to do is show where something I actually posted is incorrect. Guys, I've received a dozen posts of dissent and asked every single one of you to prove your case with something I actually posted only to receive more of the same.
Disgusting. I sincerely hope you're not a pastor. You clearly care far more about winning intellectual debates than being loving and helpful--all the while using flowery language and deflecting anything that comes at you so you can't be held responsible.
Attributional error. I hope you are not a pastor, or if you are a pastor that those warranting correction do not receive in a form resembling this post to which I now reply.

I have stated my purpose and goals. I have stated what it is I care about. My posts have not been treated accordingly. You prefer to view them through what you (falsely) imagine I care about rather than what is actually stated. And you think this is about an intellectual debate. Well, toaop, if what I have posted is correct then it does not matter how intellectual or not it is.

So, once again, I invite you to either prove something I posted incorrect or affirm it and discussion it with me relevant to the op.

You have by now seen how pessimistic and despairing the op is (Post #47) and how personal anecdotal experience is being used to conclude the entire body of Christ is in like condition. You have seen how this is compared with 38 years of inappropriate contentography addiction and how freedom from that sin did not bring hope and optimism. This is his report.

Gideon does this a lot.

He and I have traded posts about this practice before. It typically starts out with him saying we have no agreement when we in fact do. It then becomes about my supposed disregard for the deeper things of Christ. This is about method just as much as it is about content. All this method hides behind a futurist eschatology; the church sucks because we're all gonna suffer because we need to wake up but don't worry God's gonna save us. It's not even very good Dispensationalism.

No, something more than a report of victory over inappropriate contentography is at play here and if you read through Gideon's post you'll see this is a veiled attempt to justify his experience because the church sucks, not because of his own sin or because of God's actual work i his life.


And he's gotten you guys to show the mean-spirited sides by baselessly attacking me.

Yes, what a mess we are in. Gideon is correct.

Except he is not correct. The op is flawed. His victory over inappropriate contentography is commendable but if he has not reconciled the matter with his wife, the elders of his ministry, his accountability partner and perhaps others then God has not finished with him and there is a reason why he thinks victory is a lie. His experience is not the measure of my experience, nor of the body of Christ to which I belong.

So I encourage you to give the op and his subsequent posts another read, this time with a more discerning eye, and see if what I have posted is not true..... starting with my op-reply. Show me something specific I posted that is incorrect and I'll change it accordingly. Otherwise, affirm it and we can discuss it op-relevantly.
 
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Josheb

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Now you want to nitpick me, or maybe anyone that disagrees with you. Josheb, you're the guy that everyone wants of avoid. You find fault with anything that doesn't fit into your way of thinking. The man pours his heart out in hopes to help someone who may have experienced the same and you stomp all over him. That's not right and you know it. So just give it a rest!
Have you got anything op-relevant to discuss with me?

If not then ignore my posts.

Gideon has now gone on record stating victorious living is a lie. This was his intent from the beginning. Go to his profile page and look at the ops he posts. Follow them through to their conclusion. His modus operandi is to use some seemingly warm and fuzzy experience or wisdom he possesses as a springboard for asserting the Church is corrupt and needs to wake up.

It is a bad ecclesiology.

From it he then endeavors to espouse the imminent waking of the Church to its sin and the question of will it be too late?


Do now go look through these posts and see for yourself. Go to his homepage and verify what I said if you doubt me. Loo at what he has said in posts #38 and 47. Look at what he has said in post #41. See how from the beginning Romans 7 was emphasized in neglect of Romans 8 (quote mining Paul). Do please now look and see if what I have posted is correct or incorrect.


If you find something I actually posted is incorrect then show me and explain how it is necessarily incorrect and I will change it. Otherwise, affirm and and let us discuss it relevant to this op. If you have nothing op-relevant to discuss with me then ignore my posts.
 
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Josheb

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This is nitpicking. It's actually beyond nitpicking. Being a person who prefers things literal, I understand. But, also, being a person who cried out to God hundreds of times after my son died, then, at the end of myself, just (speaking my truth?) and having a life altering answer, I know what the OP means.
Yes, I know what he means too.

I also know the effects universals have on the brain. I also understand the effect teaching universals to others has on them. When we use words like, "always,", never," "everything," and completely we bind ourselves. We bind others when we assign those words to them. A husband who says to his wife, "You always do that..." is wrong to say such things. The effect is adverse on both the husband, the wife, and their marriage. Universal statements are rarely correct.

Scripture tells us this matters. Scripture tells us "as a man thinketh so he is." Scripture tells us it is out of the abundance of our hearts that we speak (and post). So when I hear a teacher teach a universal that isn't true I am going to challenge that practice.

It is an easy thing to remedy.

All that needed to occur was a simple statement by the op saying anything :wink: to the effect of "I was speaking hyperbolically," or even "You're correct, Josh, I should have said it felt like all my options had been exhausted."

But that is not what happened.
You're applying grammatical rules to someone's personal experience with God!
No, I am apply very important spiritual principles and scripture-provided standards to what appears to be this person's personal experience.

If you've read through the posts then you've realized he had another agenda from the start.

Do please now read through and verify what I just said if it is doubted.
 
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JIMINZ

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Perhaps, but no one can know because no point of disagreement has been specified. How will we reach agreement in the forum unless those yet-to-be-identified points of supposed disagreement are identified and discussed?

Let's start with this: Did God direct you to post this op? If so, did He do so for your benefit or for ours?


Don't over-think this. Those are two very simple questions that don't require much, if any, commentary to answer.


Did God direct you to post this op?

If so, did He do so for your benefit or for ours?

In reference to your answers, it was apparently, not for you
 
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When I author an op you are welcome to do so.

If and when that occasion arises I hope you will do so without fallacy because I didn't "nitpick" anyone's words. If what I posted is correct it is correct only because what is posted in the op is incorrect and ALL of us should be able to walk in that truth together.

John 3:19-21 NIV
"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

Presumably, neither Gideon, you, nor me wants to stay in darkness. Although we may fear coming out into the light for fear of exposure the turth of God is that when we do step out in His light we can see what He is doing in our lives.

And you trying to change the discussion away from Gideons to Josheb would not be that.

Or maybe now it is thought I am nitpicking your words.





If what I said is correct then it warrants discussion. Too often we hear/read testimonies that evidence wrongdoing, not righteousness. Many years ago I read a book of testimonies. Impressed I went to hear the man speak. He told of an occasion when God rescued he and a bunch of young Scouts he'd taken into a "wilderness experience trial" in the winter where they suffered extreme weather and could have dies were it not for a Ranger who happened upon them and extracted them. In his testimony, both in the book and when he recounted it that night I was in attendance, he reported he'd taken one other man as chaperone. He reported neither the other man nor any of the boys had any experience in extreme weather conditions.

As an outdoorsman who has endured extreme conditions, as an outdoorsman who has and knows the difference between expedition-grade equipment and the average Boy Scout's experience and equipment I know it is foolishness to take a gropu of novices out inot extreme weather and call "manhood building." Wise men prepare in advance and they do not put the lives of others at risk foolishly.

I had the opportunity to meet with the author subsequently. He and I have since then spent much time together discussing mens issues because he's spent 35 years mentoring men. When I asked him about this camping trip, when I asked him why he hadn't told the true work of God was in saving a fool from his foolishness...


...he wept.

He acknowledge that he had been negligent. He acknowledge that he had been negligent with those young boys and men to hom God had given him stewardship. He acknowledged the true work of God was in saving a fool from his own folly and that deserved inclusion in his testimony in the future.

So, tohper, unless and until there is something specifically "nitpicking" in my op-reply I recommend you attend to the log and not worry about the speck, and you not suggest hijacking the op to discuss others when the op has himself asked us to "digest" this op. If what I posted is correct then the correct response is affirmation, not accusation.

And, of course, if what I said is correct then you've just nitpicked and given me the opportunity to point that out inhopes it won't happen again.



I am pleased Gideon has victory over the dependency to inappropriate contentography but his confession of disobedience (which is what he has reported happened) and final obedience is not something to be wholly commended. He may mean to say, "Hey! Look what God has done in my life!" but the testimony itself shows God has simply scratched the surface. If Gideon is aware of this then he will walk in the light and if not then we can help him do so (at least to the degree he is willing to do so in the internet for all the world to see). But we see right from the beginning he has chosen to emphasize disagreement over agreement. Am I nitpicking to note that for him to see?

Ephesians 4:11-16
"And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love."

1) Unity of faith.
2) knowledge of Christ in maturity
3) Stature in the fullness of Christ.

Is that not your goal? Do you have reason to suspect it is not Gideon's goal? Not mine? If you can agree this is the goal then go back to your own response and ask, "How does insinuating Josh is nitpicking accomplish the goals of Ephesians 4?

Haters are gonna hate. I trust the three of us can do otherwise.
Ephesians 4:25-32
Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.... Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you."

Go back. Go back and re-read my op-reply through the lens of Ephesians 4. Then do the same with your own posts. Then let's agree to digest the op through the same measure.

Me thinks ye protest too much.
 
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