The fatal flaw of Universalism

Charlie24 · Mar 1, 2020

FineLinen said:
The glorious fatal flaw (s) of the Restitution of all things continues.

Our God is the Author & Finisher, the Originator & Perfecter of all. He finishes what He begins. That finish is to His complete satisfaction.

"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, in Him everything ends."

"When all things are put right"

Do you have any idea what "the restitution of all things" in Acts 3:21 is speaking of?

It is for certain you don't!!!

If you read Acts 3:18-26 (which you haven't done) you will see that it's Jesus who will come and set things in order once and for all.

The key vs. 23 tells us that every soul that will not hear Jesus will be destroyed among the people.

That is the restitution that was promised by the prophets, that only those in Christ will remain.

vs. 19,
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

FineLinen · Mar 1, 2020

Acts 3:21

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (KJV)

"Who is to be kept in heaven till the time when all things are put right, of which God has given word by the mouth of his holy prophets, who have been from the earliest times."
(BBE)

"Whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from long ago."(Common)

"Whom heaven indeed must receive till the times of the restoring of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since time began." (Darby)

"Heaven must receive him until the time of universal restoration that God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets." (ISV)

Whom, indeed, heaven must retain till the time of the accomplishment of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets, from the beginning of time. (LO)

"Whom the heavens must receive until the time of restoration of all things. "God spoke of this ages ago, through the mouth of his holy prophets." (Montgomery)

"Whom the heavens must retain, until the completion of the times of those things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets of old." (Murdock)

"Unto whom, indeed, heaven must needs give welcome, until the times of the due establishment of all things, of which God hath spoken through the mouth of his holy age-past prophets." (Rotherham)

"Whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets." (WEB)

"Heaven must receive Him until those times of which God has spoken from the earliest ages through the lips of His holy Prophets--the times of the reconstitution of all things."
(Weymouth)

"Whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age." (YLT)

"...of universal restoration" TCNT

"....of the great Restoration" (James Moffatt)

"....for the universal reformation..." (Goodspeed)

"....when all things are put right" (BAS)

"...when all is restored anew." Monsig. Ronald Knox

"...until the whole world is re-created" Rieu

"...until the final recovery of all things from sin." Kenneth Taylor

“Now it’s time to change your ways! Turn to face God so he can wipe away your sins, pour out showers of blessing to refresh you, and send you the Messiah he prepared for you, namely, Jesus. For the time being he must remain out of sight in heaven until everything is restored to order again just the way God, through the preaching of his holy prophets of old, said it would be. -MSG-

What does restitution mean?

Restitution= Apokatastsis

Apokatastsis=

Restoration of a true theocracy.

Of the perfect state before the fall.

Apokatastsis Rooted In Apokathistemi

Apokathistemi=

To restore to its former state.

To be in its former state.

Apokathistemi Rooted In Apo

Apo=

Of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed.

Of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
of origin of a cause.

Apokathistemi Rooted In Kathistemi

Kathistemi=

To set/ place/ put.

To set one over a thing (in charge of it)

To appoint one to administer an office.

To set down as/ constitute/ to declare/ show to be.

To constitute/ to render/ make/ cause to be.

To conduct or bring to a certain place.

To show or exhibit one's self/ come forward as.

Apokathistemi Rooted In Histemi

Histemi=

To cause or make to stand/ to place/ put/ set.

To make firm, fix establish.

Charlie24 · Mar 1, 2020

FineLinen said:
Acts 3:21

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (KJV)

"Who is to be kept in heaven till the time when all things are put right, of which God has given word by the mouth of his holy prophets, who have been from the earliest times."
(BBE)

"Whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from long ago."(Common)

"Whom heaven indeed must receive till the times of the restoring of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since time began." (Darby)

"Heaven must receive him until the time of universal restoration that God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets." (ISV)

Whom, indeed, heaven must retain till the time of the accomplishment of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets, from the beginning of time.
(LO)

"Whom the heavens must receive until the time of restoration of all things. "God spoke of this ages ago, through the mouth of his holy prophets." (Montgomery)

"Whom the heavens must retain, until the completion of the times of those things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets of old." (Murdock)

"Unto whom, indeed, heaven must needs give welcome, until the times of the due establishment of all things, of which God hath spoken through the mouth of his holy age-past prophets." (Rotherham)

"Whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets." (WEB)

"Heaven must receive Him until those times of which God has spoken from the earliest ages through the lips of His holy Prophets--the times of the reconstitution of all things."
(Weymouth)

"Whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age." (YLT)

"...of universal restoration" TCNT

"....of the great Restoration" (James Moffatt)

"....for the universal reformation..." (Goodspeed)

"....when all things are put right" (BAS)

"...when all is restored anew." Monsig. Ronald Knox

"...until the whole world is re-created" Rieu

"...until the final recovery of all things from sin." Kenneth Taylor

“Now it’s time to change your ways! Turn to face God so he can wipe away your sins, pour out showers of blessing to refresh you, and send you the Messiah he prepared for you, namely, Jesus. For the time being he must remain out of sight in heaven until everything is restored to order again just the way God, through the preaching of his holy prophets of old, said it would be. -MSG-

What does restitution mean?

Restitution= Apokatastsis

Apokatastsis=

Restoration of a true theocracy.

Of the perfect state before the fall.

Apokatastsis Rooted In Apokathistemi

Apokathistemi=

To restore to its former state.

To be in its former state.

Apokathistemi Rooted In Apo

Apo=

Of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed.

Of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
of origin of a cause.

Apokathistemi Rooted In Kathistemi

Kathistemi=

To set/ place/ put.

To set one over a thing (in charge of it)

To appoint one to administer an office.

To set down as/ constitute/ to declare/ show to be.

To constitute/ to render/ make/ cause to be.

To conduct or bring to a certain place.

To show or exhibit one's self/ come forward as.

Apokathistemi Rooted In Histemi

Histemi=

To cause or make to stand/ to place/ put/ set.

To make firm, fix establish.

Again and again and again you have been told by countless posters on this forum that no verse can be interpreted without the surrounding context taken with it.

You UR people take a verse and make it mean what you want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is why NO ONE will believe a word you say.

READ THE SURROUNDING VERSES AND YOU WILL SEE EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN!

But wait, that would destroy what you want it to mean.

Der Alte · Mar 1, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
"...of universal restoration" TCNT
"....of the great Restoration" (James Moffatt)
"....for the universal reformation..." (Goodspeed)
"....when all things are put right" (BAS)
"...when all is restored anew." Monsig. Ronald Knox
"...until the whole world is re-created" Rieu
"...until the final recovery of all things from sin." Kenneth Taylor
...

All of these are so much straw blowing in the wind. Versions are irrelevant minus the scholarship which shows why the scholar interpreted the words as he did.
When I was studying the Biblical languages the professor required us to translate a passage of scripture. We could not just copy from the KJV or other versions, we had to stand and deliver, explain why we translated certain words the way we did.
Another exercise I recall on my final for Hebrew "Write out your translation of Jeremiah 1:4-12 ...did you see something in the passage that you would not have seen if you read only the English?" That was a strong hint that there was something there to see and there was.
Some denominations have their own "versions." The JWs have the NWT, New World Translation, the LDS have the JST, Joseph Smith Translation.. And as a lawyer would say, "Would it surprise you to know that those versions just happen to support the teachings of each group."
Anyone here could quote about twice as many versions and UR-ites would not accept them so why should we accept what you quote?
Show us some credible scholarship?

FineLinen · Mar 1, 2020

FineLinen said:
Acts 3:21

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (KJV)

"Who is to be kept in heaven till the time when all things are put right, of which God has given word by the mouth of his holy prophets, who have been from the earliest times."
(BBE)

"Whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from long ago."(Common)

"Whom heaven indeed must receive till the times of the restoring of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since time began." (Darby)

"Heaven must receive him until the time of universal restoration that God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets." (ISV)

Whom, indeed, heaven must retain till the time of the accomplishment of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets, from the beginning of time. (LO)

"Whom the heavens must receive until the time of restoration of all things. "God spoke of this ages ago, through the mouth of his holy prophets." (Montgomery)

"Whom the heavens must retain, until the completion of the times of those things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets of old." (Murdock)

"Unto whom, indeed, heaven must needs give welcome, until the times of the due establishment of all things, of which God hath spoken through the mouth of his holy age-past prophets." (Rotherham)

"Whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets." (WEB)

"Heaven must receive Him until those times of which God has spoken from the earliest ages through the lips of His holy Prophets--the times of the reconstitution of all things."
(Weymouth)

"Whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age." (YLT)

"...of universal restoration" TCNT

"....of the great Restoration" (James Moffatt)

"....for the universal reformation..." (Goodspeed)

"....when all things are put right" (BAS)

"...when all is restored anew." Monsig. Ronald Knox

"...until the whole world is re-created" Rieu

"...until the final recovery of all things from sin." Kenneth Taylor

“Now it’s time to change your ways! Turn to face God so he can wipe away your sins, pour out showers of blessing to refresh you, and send you the Messiah he prepared for you, namely, Jesus. For the time being he must remain out of sight in heaven until everything is restored to order again just the way God, through the preaching of his holy prophets of old, said it would be. -MSG-

What does restitution mean?

Restitution= Apokatastsis

Apokatastsis=

Restoration of a true theocracy.

Of the perfect state before the fall.

Apokatastsis Rooted In Apokathistemi

Apokathistemi=

To restore to its former state.

To be in its former state.

Apokathistemi Rooted In Apo

Apo=

Of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed.

Of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
of origin of a cause.

Apokathistemi Rooted In Kathistemi

Kathistemi=

To set/ place/ put.

To set one over a thing (in charge of it)

To appoint one to administer an office.

To set down as/ constitute/ to declare/ show to be.

To constitute/ to render/ make/ cause to be.

To conduct or bring to a certain place.

To show or exhibit one's self/ come forward as.

Apokathistemi Rooted In Histemi

Histemi=

To cause or make to stand/ to place/ put/ set.

To make firm, fix establish.

What do the prophets and sages proclaim?

Genesis=

18:18 all the nations of the earth will be blessed.

28:14 all the families of the earth will be blessed.

1 Kings=

8:43 all the people of the earth will come to know and fear you, just as your own people Israel do.

Psalms=

46:10 "I will be honored by every nation. I will be honored throughout the world."

65:2 O you who hear prayer, to you shall all flesh come.

86:9 All the nations you made will come and bow before you, Lord; they will praise your holy name.

138:4 O Jehovah, all kings of earth confess Thee, When they have heard the sayings of Thy mouth.

Isaiah=

11:9 Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for as the waters fill the sea, so the earth will be filled with people who know the LORD.

52:10 The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.

52:15 Kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.

61:11 or as the earth brings forth its bud, and as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord Yahweh will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, to a nation that was not called by my name.

66:18 it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

66:23 all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.

Lamentations=

3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: but though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

(NLT)- For no one is abandoned by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he also shows compassion because of the greatness of his unfailing love.

Daniel=

7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

7:27 ..the Most High. His kingdom will last forever, and all rulers will serve and obey him."

Micah=

4:1-5 ..he will teach us his ways,
and we will walk in his paths."
For the LORD's teaching will go out from Zion;
his word will go out from Jerusalem.
The LORD will mediate between peoples
and will settle disputes between strong nations far away.
They will hammer their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will no longer fight against nation,
nor train for war anymore.
Everyone will live in peace and prosperity,
enjoying their own grapevines and fig trees,
for there will be nothing to fear.

Habakkuk=

2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Saint Steven · Mar 1, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Do you have any idea what "the restitution of all things" in Acts 3:21 is speaking of?

It is for certain you don't!!!

If you read Acts 3:18-26 (which you haven't done) you will see that it's Jesus who will come and set things in order once and for all.

The key vs. 23 tells us that every soul that will not hear Jesus will be destroyed among the people.

That is the restitution that was promised by the prophets, that only those in Christ will remain.

vs. 19,
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

That's pretty heavy-handed.
Why would you declare that @FineLinen does not understand Acts 3:21? ???
And that he has not read Acts 3:18-26? ???

In reference to the Prophets it is verses 24-25 that is key. Bold below.

Acts 3:18-26
But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’
24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

Saint Steven · Mar 1, 2020

Charlie24 said:
You UR people take a verse and make it mean what you want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cannot the same be said of you folks?
Our scriptures are swept under the carpet to make room for yours'.
Simply because you ASSUME you have this all figured out. Right?

Der Alte · Mar 1, 2020

Saint Steven said:
...

That's pretty heavy-handed.
Why would you declare that @FineLinen does not understand Acts 3:21? ???
And that he has not read Acts 3:18-26? ???
In reference to the Prophets it is verses 24-25 that is key. Bold below.
Acts 3:18-26
But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’
24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

...

Please explain your understanding of vs. 23 "Anyone who does not listen to him[the coming Messiah] will be completely cut off from their people." How does it relate to UR?

Der Alte · Mar 1, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Cannot the same be said of you folks?
Our scriptures are swept under the carpet to make room for yours'.
Simple because you ASSUME you have this all figured out. Right?

Wrong! We don't sweep anything under the carpet. You are shown how you are either misinterpreting or misrepresenting the scripture. See post #1028, above.

FineLinen · Mar 2, 2020

The glorious fatal flaw (s) of the Restitution of all things continues.

Our God is the Author & Finisher, the Originator & Perfecter of all. He finishes what He begins. That finish is to His complete satisfaction.

"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, in Him everything ends."

Our God is no potential Saviour! He is Saviour! His middle Name is Isous: He saves all mankind ( the radical pas) & the super radical ta pante (the all).

God IS the Saviour of all mankind, the pas, the ta pante & the malista who trust Him today.

FineLinen · Mar 2, 2020

Mega (large) news!

Jesus Christ IS the Reconciliation for our sins

AND>>>>>>

He is the reconciliation for NOT our sins ONLY (monon & monos)

BUT>>>>>>

For the sins of the WHOLE world (the radical all).

The entire sins of the entire ungodly world!

Saint Steven · Mar 2, 2020

Damnationism is a filter through which the Bible is viewed. A distorted lens. A preconceived matrix upon which the texts are arranged. And a dustbin to toss out any that don't seem to fit the preconception.

Der Alte · Mar 2, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Damnationism is a filter through which the Bible is viewed. A distorted lens. A preconceived matrix upon which the texts are arranged. And a dustbin to toss out any that don't seem to fit the preconception.

Rubbish! You are the one who tries to make anything which contradicts you SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, etc. Whereas I adhere to the adage "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense." Prove me wrong.

FineLinen · Mar 2, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Damnationism is a filter through which the Bible is viewed. A distorted lens. A preconceived matrix upon which the texts are arranged. And a dustbin to toss out any that don't seem to fit the preconception.

Dear Steve: The problem with everlasting damnation for me (outside of the stupid) is that our Father who is the Author & Finisher does not complete what He has begun, but ends with defeat!

Unending evil wins, the Author & Finisher loses?

Der Alte · Mar 2, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear Steve: The problem with everlasting damnation for me (outside of the stupid) is that our Father who is the Author & Finisher does not complete what He has begun, but ends with defeat!
Unending evil wins, the Author & Finisher loses?

In Jeremiah 13 does the Author and Finisher of our faith complete what He has begun or does He end in defeat?
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them. The "whole house of Israel and Judah" was not disobedient and rebellious.
I would like to see the UR spin on this passage.

Saint Steven · Mar 2, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear Steve: The problem with everlasting damnation for me (outside of the stupid) is that our Father who is the Author & Finisher does not complete what He has begun, but ends with defeat!

Unending evil wins, the Author & Finisher loses?

I agreed with your post until I saw the Brennin Manning quote...

Then you got a WINNER badge!

Saint Steven · Mar 3, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Do you have any idea what "the restitution of all things" in Acts 3:21 is speaking of?

It is for certain you don't!!!

If you read Acts 3:18-26 (which you haven't done) you will see that it's Jesus who will come and set things in order once and for all.

The key vs. 23 tells us that every soul that will not hear Jesus will be destroyed among the people.

That is the restitution that was promised by the prophets, that only those in Christ will remain.

vs. 19,
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

@FineLinen @Hillsage @Shrewd Manager @Lazarus Short and @Charlie24 (of course)
I think what we are seeing here is a case of Interpretation Bias.

I have been trying to put my finger on the real problem.
This is what occurred to me today.
The problem is interpretation bias. (also known as interpretative bias)
The lens through which we view things that colors our perception of it.
In a sense, everyone is guilty of it. Any other thoughts on this?

This is why a Restorationist can read the verse below and understand it as supporting UR. While a Damnationist/Annihilationist would see it as a verse pulled out of context. Claiming it doesn't mean what it clearly says.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Der Alte · Mar 3, 2020

Saint Steven said:
...

I have been trying to put my finger on the real problem.
This is what occurred to me today.
The problem is interpretation bias. (also known as interpretative bias)
The lens through which we view things that colors our perception of it.
In a sense, everyone is guilty of it. Any other thoughts on this?
This is why a Restorationist can read the verse below and understand it as supporting UR. While a Damnationist/Annihilationist would see it as a verse pulled out of context. Claiming it doesn't mean what it clearly says.
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

...

There is definitely interpretative bias. My Bible has 31,172 verses evidently you and other UR-ites think this one verse is the only verse which relates to this topic.
As I have pointed out multiple times, which has been totally ignored, this was written by Paul. When Paul wrote this should we assume that he forgot what he wrote to the churches about the fate of the unrighteous? Or when he wrote to the churches he forgot what he wrote in this one verse to Timothy?

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Paul does not say someday they will have an inheritance. Paul said "they have no inheritance." I assume that Paul knew what he was talking about/.

Hillsage · Mar 3, 2020

Steven, if some carnal minded one here tells me I haven't read the bible, or only have 'one verse' supporting the plan that only those whose minds are unveiled can see, he really has shot himself in his intellectual foot, proving a cranial vacancy of both, the spirit and the truth IMO. He has absolutely proven how conformed to the warning of scripture he is.

ACT 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

In your comment on the Acts 3:21 verse above, it is obvious to those who are spiritual that there is still a need for prophets today. For truly God still doesn't do a thing without revealing it to those who are 'spokesmen' for His words. And those here who don't even acknowledge that fact, can only respond even as the "veiled minds" of Jews. Those who still are waiting for the messiah to return...for the first time?

As for 'interpretive bias' I can only say YES AND AMEN, we all have it. But they are not all right, who come here with their carnal minded degrees devoid of the Spirit of truth. If I was forced to decide 'the book' or 'the Spirit' I'll take the Spirit. They cannot imagine such a stupid decision on our part....and therein lies the sadness of a "veiled" decision IMO.

edit; the bolded "can see" above clarified a hurried response.

Der Alte · Mar 4, 2020

Hillsage said:
...

Hilsage said:
...As for 'interpretive bias' I can only say YES AND AMEN, we all have it. But they are not all right, who come here with their carnal minded degrees devoid of the Spirit of truth. If I was forced to decide 'the book' or 'the Spirit' I'll take the Spirit. They cannot imagine such a stupid decision on our part....and therein lies the sadness of a "veiled" decision IMO.

The problem with the so-called spiritual interpretation is every heterodox religious group around, e.g. JW. LDS, UPCI, OP, WWCG, INC etc,, most of whom don't know an aorist from an apple, has their own biased spiritual interpretation and they all claim they are right and everyone else is wrong. Surprise, surprise, surprise each groups "spiritual interpretation" just happens to support their groups teaching.
Here is an example where "'spiritual interpretation" ignores the Greek grammar.

John 3:17 Because God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world [σωθη] might be saved through him.

UR-ites use this verse to "prove" that the whole world will be saved. But the Greek word σωθη/sothe translated "might be saved" is in the subjunctive mood. Which is the mood of probability and potentiality.
If Jesus had intended to say "the world shall be saved through Him" He would have said σωθησεται/sothesetai, in the indicative mood, as He did in Matt 10:22 and several other verses.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end [σωθησεται] shall be saved.

Footnote: If you have not compared your "spiritual interpretation" with the Hebrew or Greek then you have not read the Bible.

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