How to respond to climate change

ZNP · Mar 1, 2020

It seems to me that the majority of people now realize that Climate change is a serious threat to human civilization today. Perhaps the fires in Australia made it real to everyone.

So, instead of debating whether or not we are in the midst of radical climatic change that could be a major stressor in the sixth main extinction of life on this planet, I would like this thread to focus on the necessary response. [Please if you want to debate whether or not there is climate change do that on another thread -- this thread is about the solution].

I believe there is a solution and it isn't what most people are focused on.

Most people focus on the burning of fossil fuel as the culprit and therefore the solution is to limit that in some way. To those of you who feel this is the solution please consider this critical scenario:

First, suppose you owned an oil tanker, or an oil refinery, or an oil well, or a coal mine, or even a gas station, etc. You filled out all the necessary paperwork, got all the necessary permits from the government, and have paid all the taxes so far. Let's assume you are a good citizen. You put up your entire net worth to make this purchase and that is because you did the math and realized over the next 25 years it would be a good investment, paying you back the principle and interest. But now, people say we shouldn't burn fossil fuel. If you do not pump the oil out of the well you will be bankrupt, if you do not deliver the oil in your tanker you will be bankrupt, if your refinery stops refining you will be bankrupt. There are two choices, ignore /deny the problem and push on because you have already committed yourself, or do the selfless thing, declare bankruptcy and stop pumping, shipping, refining, etc. However, if you declare bankruptcy the bank will then own whatever it is you have and they will sell it to whoever will buy it. So unless the entire world agrees to stop pumping, shipping, refining, and burning whatever you personally do will not stop the fossil fuel from being burned.

So the key question that has to be answered before the government can limit the consumption of fossil fuel is "can you convince every person to stop"? The US represents 5% of the world's population, even if we stopped it won't matter if China, India, Russia, the Middle East, etc. continue. Can the US government, or any government for that matter give you the permits that allowed you to buy the million dollar oil tanker knowing the purpose was to ship oil for 25 years and then the very next year tell you that you are no longer allowed to ship oil? This is why I feel every drop of oil and natural gas will be pumped, shipped, and burned. Thinking that somehow the world will stop is a pipe dream.

I find it ridiculous that those who just discovered this was a problem now should be telling us what the solution is. I would argue that once we began the industrial revolution in the 1800s this destination was inevitable and there was nothing that anyone could do to stop it. I would also argue that ever since the scientific revolution in ancient Greece the industrial revolution was inevitable and so this was the inevitable outcome. But the good news is that those who saw this coming thousands of years ago also gave us the solution...

OldWiseGuy · Mar 1, 2020

Matthew 24:22
"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

The burning of fossil fuels is just a small part of the destruction of the environment.

usexpat97 · Mar 1, 2020

I regarded Global Warming as a threat since the 1980's, when I first heard of it. Since then, the facts have confirmed my well-founded fears. Had the facts not lined up with it, I would have abandoned it.

The right solution, as far as I'm concerned, is science. We need billions in public funding to research higher-efficiency renewable power, which is economically viable and scalable. Carbon trapping needs to be a thing. We need the RIGHT people leading the effort--and by right, I do not mean the most politically viable. Ultimately, we will probably need trillions invested around the world to win the fight, but I hate to invest trillions in 37% power-efficiency solar panels, when we might be a couple years down the road from 50% solar panels.

Problem is, humanity simply does not possess that determination. Person A will be all conscious to recycle everything, leave no carbon footprint--only for Person B to spit on it, and use that to take license to burn all his plastic water bottles in a brush pile in his backyard.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 1, 2020

It can be done, but won't be done. In fact it's going to get much worse... like a boulder picking up speed.

High Fidelity · Mar 1, 2020

This is part of the problem. "Even if I stop doing certain things, everyone else will still carry on as normal". It's not a valid excuse.

Albion · Mar 1, 2020

ZNP said:
It seems to me that the majority of people now realize that Climate change is a serious threat to human civilization today. Perhaps the fires in Australia made it real to everyone.

Fire and arson are not recent inventions of whomever the climate alarmists are blaming for the end of the world coming in 11 years (or is it only 10 now?).

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 1, 2020

It's all in the Book of Revelation. What is happening is the sign of the end times. Things have happened at an accelerated pace in the last 100 years that were not even imagined in the 1900 years before. Before 1945, mankind did not have a weapon that could potentially destroy all of humanity.

The book of Revelation says that one day one third of all mankind will be killed. This is now possible with nuclear weapons. Also, it says that great areas of the world will become desolate. This is now becoming possible with global warming.

We know that the Arab nations want to destroy Israel, and if Israel is in a position where they will not be able to defend themselves any other way, they will certainly use their nuclear weapons. No doubt about it. So, it will be no if but when that will happen, especially when Iran develops its nuclear capability.

You may not like it, but the Book of Revelation is coming true, and that will be frightening for many. It says that in the last days men's hearts will be failing them through fear. Just think that one of the main causes for heart attack is extreme stress!

The next event on the end times agenda is that millions of people will suddenly go missing, and that will cause widespread panic and fear. If you watched "War of the Worlds" and then multiplied that by 100, then that will be what things will be like on that day.

Then there will be a great leader who will unite the governments and religions of the world to assure people that things will be turned right side up again. He will be admired and respected by all as the person who has rescued them and stabilised the world again after the great trauma and panic of so many millions of people going suddenly and mysteriously missing.

When this happens, you will then know that what is written in the Book of Revelation is absolutely true, and the rest of the prophecy will come true as well.

The question is, what will you do when millions of people will suddenly go missing all around the world? What will you think is the reason for it?

I am saying these things, because our present issue with global warming is just one part of what is going to happen in the future of our world.

Velaut · Mar 1, 2020

There are other solutions of course besides limiting burning fossil fuels - which is a good contribution.
Eating less meat will contribute to the solution as well.

Hans Blaster · Mar 1, 2020

ZNP said:
It seems to me that the majority of people now realize that Climate change is a serious threat to human civilization today. Perhaps the fires in Australia made it real to everyone.

So, instead of debating whether or not we are in the midst of radical climatic change that could be a major stressor in the sixth main extinction of life on this planet, I would like this thread to focus on the necessary response. [Please if you want to debate whether or not there is climate change do that on another thread -- this thread is about the solution].

I'm glad you agree (though I though it was obvious 25 years ago)

ZNP said:
I believe there is a solution and it isn't what most people are focused on.

Great!

ZNP said:
Most people focus on the burning of fossil fuel as the culprit and therefore the solution is to limit that in some way. To those of you who feel this is the solution please consider this critical scenario:

---Scenario removed for brevity---

ZNP said:
I find it ridiculous that those who just discovered this was a problem now should be telling us what the solution is. I would argue that once we began the industrial revolution in the 1800s this destination was inevitable and there was nothing that anyone could do to stop it. I would also argue that ever since the scientific revolution in ancient Greece the industrial revolution was inevitable and so this was the inevitable outcome. But the good news is that those who saw this coming thousands of years ago also gave us the solution...

You've left us all hanging, dude! What's your solution?

('Cause it ain't obvious to me!)

Cheers!

LightandTruth · Mar 1, 2020

"Climate change" is NOT "man-made" and it is NOT going to result in the end of human life on this planet or the termination of life as a whole here. All of this is a massive hoax. I could go into the science behind this but instead I'll post a few links. And I'll post some supporting Scriptures too. Don't drink the Koolaid that the phony science "climate change" cartel would have you drink (and believe) along with the mainstream media. Climate fluctuations have existed on this planet since its very beginning. They will continue millennia after we are gone.

"One generation passes away, and another generation comes;
But the earth abides forever." (Eccl. 1:4)
"You who laid the foundations of the earth,
So that it should not be moved forever" (Psalm 104:5) - Note that in this chapter the Psalmist (and God writing through him) details the ONGOING maintenance of this planet and its ecosystems by God and His crew (the angels).

The Science Says There's No Climate Emergency | PSI Intl

Climate 'Crisis' Update–England As Warm As 1736 Last Month! | PSI Intl

The Peer-review process, and how it fails | PSI Intl

The political Hijacking of Global Warming | PSI Intl

How The IPCC's Greenhouse Definition Violates Physical Laws | PSI Intl

OldWiseGuy · Mar 1, 2020

High Fidelity said:
This is part of the problem. "Even if I stop doing certain things, everyone else will still carry on as normal". It's not a valid excuse.

Not sure what you mean. ??

Aussie Pete · Mar 1, 2020

ZNP said:
It seems to me that the majority of people now realize that Climate change is a serious threat to human civilization today. Perhaps the fires in Australia made it real to everyone.

So, instead of debating whether or not we are in the midst of radical climatic change that could be a major stressor in the sixth main extinction of life on this planet, I would like this thread to focus on the necessary response. [Please if you want to debate whether or not there is climate change do that on another thread -- this thread is about the solution].

I believe there is a solution and it isn't what most people are focused on.

Most people focus on the burning of fossil fuel as the culprit and therefore the solution is to limit that in some way. To those of you who feel this is the solution please consider this critical scenario:

First, suppose you owned an oil tanker, or an oil refinery, or an oil well, or a coal mine, or even a gas station, etc. You filled out all the necessary paperwork, got all the necessary permits from the government, and have paid all the taxes so far. Let's assume you are a good citizen. You put up your entire net worth to make this purchase and that is because you did the math and realized over the next 25 years it would be a good investment, paying you back the principle and interest. But now, people say we shouldn't burn fossil fuel. If you do not pump the oil out of the well you will be bankrupt, if you do not deliver the oil in your tanker you will be bankrupt, if your refinery stops refining you will be bankrupt. There are two choices, ignore /deny the problem and push on because you have already committed yourself, or do the selfless thing, declare bankruptcy and stop pumping, shipping, refining, etc. However, if you declare bankruptcy the bank will then own whatever it is you have and they will sell it to whoever will buy it. So unless the entire world agrees to stop pumping, shipping, refining, and burning whatever you personally do will not stop the fossil fuel from being burned.

So the key question that has to be answered before the government can limit the consumption of fossil fuel is "can you convince every person to stop"? The US represents 5% of the world's population, even if we stopped it won't matter if China, India, Russia, the Middle East, etc. continue. Can the US government, or any government for that matter give you the permits that allowed you to buy the million dollar oil tanker knowing the purpose was to ship oil for 25 years and then the very next year tell you that you are no longer allowed to ship oil? This is why I feel every drop of oil and natural gas will be pumped, shipped, and burned. Thinking that somehow the world will stop is a pipe dream.

I find it ridiculous that those who just discovered this was a problem now should be telling us what the solution is. I would argue that once we began the industrial revolution in the 1800s this destination was inevitable and there was nothing that anyone could do to stop it. I would also argue that ever since the scientific revolution in ancient Greece the industrial revolution was inevitable and so this was the inevitable outcome. But the good news is that those who saw this coming thousands of years ago also gave us the solution...

The main problem is human greed and stupidity. Australia leads the way in both. Simple things like home and other building design and suburban planning can make a huge difference. What do we do? Create suburban wastelands where every house has a black roof, no trees and packed in like sardines. Oh, and stick them in areas that are naturally hot in summer anyway. Temperature difference between treed suburbs and untreed, up to 7 deg C. Next, allow overwhelming numbers of immigrant to fill the suburbs. Don't provide public transport, bike paths and such. That would be sensible but costs money. So we have to build the biggest desal plant in the southern hemisphere to provide water for the 1,000 people a week coming to live in Melbourne. But immigrants bring a lot of money and artificially inflate economic data. Repeat ad nauseam for every major population centre in Australia.

timothyu · Mar 1, 2020

ZNP said:
How to respond to climate change

Dress in layers.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 1, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
The main problem is human greed and stupidity. Australia leads the way in both.

NOW WADAMINIT!
The U.S. has worked long and hard for those distinctions. Git in line.

throughfiierytrial · Mar 1, 2020

ZNP said:
It seems to me that the majority of people now realize that Climate change is a serious threat to human civilization today. Perhaps the fires in Australia made it real to everyone.

So, instead of debating whether or not we are in the midst of radical climatic change that could be a major stressor in the sixth main extinction of life on this planet, I would like this thread to focus on the necessary response. [Please if you want to debate whether or not there is climate change do that on another thread -- this thread is about the solution].

I believe there is a solution and it isn't what most people are focused on.

Most people focus on the burning of fossil fuel as the culprit and therefore the solution is to limit that in some way. To those of you who feel this is the solution please consider this critical scenario:

First, suppose you owned an oil tanker, or an oil refinery, or an oil well, or a coal mine, or even a gas station, etc. You filled out all the necessary paperwork, got all the necessary permits from the government, and have paid all the taxes so far. Let's assume you are a good citizen. You put up your entire net worth to make this purchase and that is because you did the math and realized over the next 25 years it would be a good investment, paying you back the principle and interest. But now, people say we shouldn't burn fossil fuel. If you do not pump the oil out of the well you will be bankrupt, if you do not deliver the oil in your tanker you will be bankrupt, if your refinery stops refining you will be bankrupt. There are two choices, ignore /deny the problem and push on because you have already committed yourself, or do the selfless thing, declare bankruptcy and stop pumping, shipping, refining, etc. However, if you declare bankruptcy the bank will then own whatever it is you have and they will sell it to whoever will buy it. So unless the entire world agrees to stop pumping, shipping, refining, and burning whatever you personally do will not stop the fossil fuel from being burned.

So the key question that has to be answered before the government can limit the consumption of fossil fuel is "can you convince every person to stop"? The US represents 5% of the world's population, even if we stopped it won't matter if China, India, Russia, the Middle East, etc. continue. Can the US government, or any government for that matter give you the permits that allowed you to buy the million dollar oil tanker knowing the purpose was to ship oil for 25 years and then the very next year tell you that you are no longer allowed to ship oil? This is why I feel every drop of oil and natural gas will be pumped, shipped, and burned. Thinking that somehow the world will stop is a pipe dream.

I find it ridiculous that those who just discovered this was a problem now should be telling us what the solution is. I would argue that once we began the industrial revolution in the 1800s this destination was inevitable and there was nothing that anyone could do to stop it. I would also argue that ever since the scientific revolution in ancient Greece the industrial revolution was inevitable and so this was the inevitable outcome. But the good news is that those who saw this coming thousands of years ago also gave us the solution...

As Christians we should not be concerned about climate change; we have God's great and precious promises...
Genesis 8:27:
‘As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease.’

LightandTruth · Mar 1, 2020

timothyu said:
Dress in layers.

That's classic man. Love it.

LightandTruth · Mar 1, 2020

throughfireytrial said:
As Christians we should not be concerned about climate change; we have God's great and precious promises...
Genesis 8:27:
‘As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease.’

A huge amen to this. I would add this text, "You who laid the foundations of the earth,
So that it should not be moved forever (Psalm 104:5) and this one, "One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever." (Ecclesiastes 1:4)

Aussie Pete · Mar 1, 2020

throughfireytrial said:
As Christians we should not be concerned about climate change; we have God's great and precious promises...
Genesis 8:27:
‘As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease.’

Hey, it's Monday 10.54 am here. We are in front of the US all the time!

ZNP · Mar 1, 2020

usexpat97 said:
I regarded Global Warming as a threat since the 1980's, when I first heard of it. Since then, the facts have confirmed my well-founded fears. Had the facts not lined up with it, I would have abandoned it.

The right solution, as far as I'm concerned, is science. We need billions in public funding to research higher-efficiency renewable power, which is economically viable and scalable. Carbon trapping needs to be a thing. We need the RIGHT people leading the effort--and by right, I do not mean the most politically viable. Ultimately, we will probably need trillions invested around the world to win the fight, but I hate to invest trillions in 37% power-efficiency solar panels, when we might be a couple years down the road from 50% solar panels.

Problem is, humanity simply does not possess that determination. Person A will be all conscious to recycle everything, leave no carbon footprint--only for Person B to spit on it, and use that to take license to burn all his plastic water bottles in a brush pile in his backyard.

We have seen tremendous improvement in the economics of solar and wind, they are being adopted rapidly. But it won't stop the burning of fossil fuel. If someone has built a power plant for coal they are going to want to continue to use it. As long as we continue to burn the fossil fuel the chemistry of the atmosphere continues to increase the greenhouse gases. So to me it is similar to the straining the gnat and swallowing the camel. Renewable energy is great, but it is also intermittent and therefore no one has figured out how to deal with that economically.

ZNP · Mar 1, 2020

High Fidelity said:
This is part of the problem. "Even if I stop doing certain things, everyone else will still carry on as normal". It's not a valid excuse.

The Lord said before you go to war you need to carefully calculate the cost to see if you have enough to win. Show me how we can actually get the world, not 1% of the world or even 5% of the world, but 80% of the world to stop using / burning fossil fuel. If you can't do that then you are just making noise and do not have the solution.

How to respond to climate change

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