The seven kings of Revelation 17:10

Oberamagau

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Armies under Islam did not destroy the temple and city.

The Romans followed the greeks in both Daniel 2 Daniel 7.

Islam, nor muslims existed to fit the five fallen, and one is kings.
You're looking at the beast from a progressive 'past tense' fulfillment culminating into an end-time empire. NONE of the heads or horns existed millennia ago. They are ALL end-time kings. Five Fallen OR Have Fallen IS INCORRECT

FIVE FALL - correct!
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev17.pdf
 
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Josheb

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Five are fallen and one is!

Domitian is the "one is" for he is the one who reigned during Johns exile on Patmos! He is the eleventh cesar and not of the Julio/Claudian dynasty so those two "futurist hypotheses" false!
Tell it to the op. It is the op who first states Nero is the sixth king.
 
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Oberamagau

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It is what Jesus indicated, in John 5:43. What position do you think they crucified him from becoming?

Jesus of Nazareth - King of the Jews.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

You're leaving out the most important word. IF -

"a conditional particle (derived from εἰ ἄν), which makes reference to time and to experience, introducing something future, but not determining, before the event, whether it is certainly to take place;

Jesus is clearly affirming that he has come in His Father's name. He is not prophesying a coming Jewish anti-Christ.
 
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Erik Nelson

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It is the Julio-Claudian Caesar family dynasty. Nero was the last of the Julio-Claudians. Galba was not a Julio-Claudian. Galba is not part of the group.*

In Revelation 13, the body of the first beast represents the kingdom of the beast (the 8th king). The composite makeup indicates that with 42 months left in the 7 years, the kingdom of the beast will control the territories of the 3 historic kingdoms of Babylon, Medes-Persians, Greek. In tangible terms, it means the EU will be controlling all the oil rich territory in the middle east.

The beast king will be dictator over the EU at that time. And the ten EU leaders, represented by the horns, having their crowns in Revelation 13 will rule with him.

None of the heads have crowns in Revelation 13, because with the death, mortally wounded head (king 7) but healed, the prophecy of the 7 kings is over at that point.

King 7 will have transitioned, come back to life, to be king 8 the beast.

This is borne out in Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Erik, in those two verses, it is no longer emphasizing the head that was mortally wounded, but healed, but the beast - indicating the transition of the person from being king 7 (the head) to having become the beast king 8.


__________________________________________________________

* Erik, in your "both the 7th head, and body = 8th king = "of the 7"..."

Galba, Otho, Vitellius would have no connection as being the lion, bear, leopard make up of the beast's body in Revelation 13.
If the first 6 heads all lived around the time of Christ...

then so must have the 7th (obviously of the 6) and 8th ("of the 7")

we cannot insert 2000+ years in between Nero (#6) and the rest of the linear sequence

---

Fact remains, there is a marked break between the "7 heads + 1 body" and the ensuing "10 horns"... before and after "Armageddon" vs. "Babylon"...

foretelling the break between the Julio-Claudian dynasty vs. all succeeding emperors (especially the 10 who persecuted Christianity from Domitian to Decius & Diocletian & Julian the Apostate)… before and after the Jewish-Roman War vs. Jerusalem

---

the "mortal wound healed" = Great Fire of Rome in July 64 AD under Nero which almost destroyed the city...but Rome rebounded rapidly and was built back more beautifully than before

---

the pagan empire was finally converted to Christ, officially, as the state religion, immediately after the "10th horn" = 10th persecuting pagan emperor = Julian the Apostate

thus began the Millennium = Byzantine empire of Christian Constantinople...

which lasted exactly precisely the predicted 1000 years until 1453 AD...

then Satan was unleashed, as European history bears out, because all Europeans were saying the Devil was loosed from 1450-1700 AD during all of the Witch trials until Salem

since then it's been all the forecasted "Gog & Magog" and will (evidently) remain so until "fire from heaven" turns earth into "Hosnian Prime"

---

everybody today is extremely confused, exactly precisely as 2 Thess 2 foretold, with a powerful "deluding spirit" leading astray all those who refuse to recognize the truth

---

everything Scripture prophesied has already occurred, exactly precisely as prophesied, up through "fire from heaven" (evidently next up)

---

there are no multi-thousand-year long gaps in the "Revelation scheduled itinerary of Judgement"

no human has or gets to "press pause"

human history has marched to the "pied piper" tune of Revelation, exactly precisely (and obviously) as written, for the past 2000 years, and will (evidently) continue to insistently do so...

straight into "Hosnian Prime" with "fire from heaven" at the 2nd C on FJ Day

The End (of earth as we know it)
 
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Erik Nelson

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  • Jesus riding a donkey is NOT unique at all and IMO is not meaningful. The Jews had no horses... Everyone used donkeys for riding and hauling goods. Very few horses because lack of water and suitable pasture. Only Roman officers had horses. Makes the claim that Solomon had thousands of horses appear very silly.
not true, actually

Middle Eastern rulers ride into cities on horses, if the city resists them and they conquer it

If the city opens its gates and welcomes them, they acknowledge the acceptance by riding in on a donkey instead

"riding in on a donkey" = Jerusalem accepts the Messianic king (at least initially at that time)
 
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summerville

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Never said any such thing.

I don't trade posts with those who post straw men.
I don't trade posts with those who put words I didn't post into my posts.
I don't trade posts with those who argue straw men and don't self-correct when the errors are noted.
I don't trade posts with posters who ignore posts' actual contents.
I don't trade posts with posters who post ad hominem.
I don't trade posts with postes who try to hijack others' ops.
I don't trade posts with those who cannot or will not stay on topic.

So correct your own content if you want to trade posts with me.


What I said about Dispensationalism is true and easily verified. What I said about Dispensationalists is common and evident in this op. I did not make any of it up. You cannot prove I think Dispensationalists are wolves in sheeps clothing. I never said any such thing, never implied any such thing, never insinuated and such thing and do not believe such a thing. If I asked you to prove me stating such a thing you could not prove your own claim You made that up. You bore false witness.

So correct you own content if you wish to trade posts with me.

Isn't it interesting that the disciples and apostles never mentioned dispensations?
 
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Douggg

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You're looking at the beast from a progressive 'past tense' fulfillment culminating into an end-time empire. NONE of the heads or horns existed millennia ago. They are ALL end-time kings. Five Fallen OR Have Fallen IS INCORRECT

FIVE FALL - correct!
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev17.pdf

The kjv has it correct validated by...

Revelation 17 the 7 heads - no crowns
Revelation 12 the 7 heads - crowns
Revelation 13 the 7 heads - no crowns, one head wounded/healed
 
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Oberamagau

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If the first 6 heads all lived around the time of Christ...

then so must have the 7th (obviously of the 6) and 8th ("of the 7")

we cannot insert 2000+ years in between Nero (#6) and the rest of the linear sequence

---

Fact remains, there is a marked break between the "7 heads + 1 body" and the ensuing "10 horns"... before and after "Armageddon" vs. "Babylon"...

foretelling the break between the Julio-Claudian dynasty vs. all succeeding emperors (especially the 10 who persecuted Christianity from Domitian to Decius & Diocletian & Julian the Apostate)… before and after the Jewish-Roman War vs. Jerusalem

---

the "mortal wound healed" = Great Fire of Rome in July 64 AD under Nero which almost destroyed the city...but Rome rebounded rapidly and was built back more beautifully than before

---

the pagan empire was finally converted to Christ, officially, as the state religion, immediately after the "10th horn" = 10th persecuting pagan emperor = Julian the Apostate

thus began the Millennium = Byzantine empire of Christian Constantinople...

which lasted exactly precisely the predicted 1000 years until 1453 AD...

then Satan was unleashed, as European history bears out, because all Europeans were saying the Devil was loosed from 1450-1700 AD during all of the Witch trials until Salem

since then it's been all the forecasted "Gog & Magog" and will (evidently) remain so until "fire from heaven" turns earth into "Hosnian Prime"

---

everybody today is extremely confused, exactly precisely as 2 Thess 2 foretold, with a powerful "deluding spirit" leading astray all those who refuse to recognize the truth

---

everything Scripture prophesied has already occurred, exactly precisely as prophesied, up through "fire from heaven" (evidently next up)

---

there are no multi-thousand-year long gaps in the "Revelation scheduled itinerary of Judgement"

no human has or gets to "press pause"

human history has marched to the "pied piper" tune of Revelation, exactly precisely (and obviously) as written, for the past 2000 years, and will (evidently) continue to insistently do so...

straight into "Hosnian Prime" with "fire from heaven" at the 2nd C on FJ Day

The End (of earth as we know it)
Futurist, historicist, and Preterist all look to the past to understand a prophecy that's COMPLETELY about the future. NOT ONE head or horn on this beast existed millennia ago. They are all on earth at the same time! Read the entire chapter, it's actually impossible for them to have existed log ago!

Nobody replied to this earlier post of mine...

How can they be ancient kings of kingdoms when -

"They have received no kingdom as yet," and...

"They receive power as kings one hour with the beast," and...

"How can they "have one mind,"

"how shall they give their power and strength unto the beast,"

"HOW CAN THEY, "make war with the Lamb," ...

IF SIX OF THEM EXISTED THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN THE PAST!
 
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Oberamagau

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The kjv has it correct validated by...

Revelation 17 the 7 heads - no crowns
Revelation 12 the 7 heads - crowns
Revelation 13 the 7 heads - no crowns, one head wounded/healed
You could make an attempt to explain what it is you're trying to say.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Futurist, historicist, and Preterist all look to the past to understand a prophecy that's COMPLETELY about the future. NOT ONE head or horn on this beast existed millennia ago. They are all on earth at the same time! Read the entire chapter, it's actually impossible for them to have existed log ago!

Nobody replied to this earlier post of mine...

How can they be ancient kings of kingdoms when -

"They have received no kingdom as yet," and...

"They receive power as kings one hour with the beast," and...

"How can they "have one mind,"

"how shall they give their power and strength unto the beast,"

"HOW CAN THEY, "make war with the Lamb," ...

IF SIX OF THEM EXISTED THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN THE PAST!
when Revelation was (revealed and) written, the 6th king "was"

Nero "was" living, when Revelation was (revealed and) written, 2000 years ago
 
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Josheb

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Isn't it interesting that the disciples and apostles never mentioned dispensations?
Actually, they did. I don't have time to go into it now because I'm preparing for church but I'll explain how Dispies assert the construct in comparison to the ECFs when I get home this afternoon.
 
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Douggg

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You could make an attempt to explain what it is you're trying to say.
I am saying none of the heads have their crowns in Revelation 17, when the "one is" king, king 6, was ruling because the prophecy of the 7 kings was not fulfilled in the first century.

In Revelation 12, the heads have their crowns because king 7 has come to power with there being 7 years left before Jesus's return. The 7 years are Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days, followed by the time, times, half time, Revelation 12:14.

In Revelation 13, none of the heads have their crowns because king 7 has just be killed right before the 42 months prior to Jesus's return. The death of king 7 ends the prophecy of the 7 kings.

Then king 7 coming back to life as king 8, he is then the beast.

I explained this in an earlier post in this thread, but it bears repeating because most people don't understand why the crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns change depending upon the chapter (17,12,13).

It all has to do with the time elements found in each of those three chapters.
 
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Josheb

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Isn't it interesting that the disciples and apostles never mentioned dispensations?
The word "dispensation" comes from the Greek word, "oikonomia," economy, administration, management, or an established set of standards, and carries with it the connotation of stewardship. Jesus uses the term in Luke 16 in his parable about the unrighteous steward.

Luke 16:1-13
"Now He was also saying to the disciples, 'There was a rich man who had a manager, and this manager was reported to him as squandering his possessions. And he called him and said to him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an accounting of your management, for you can no longer be manager' (oikonomien). The manager (oikonomos) said to himself, 'What shall I do, since my master is taking the management (oikonomian) away from me? I am not strong enough to dig; I am ashamed to beg. I know what I shall do, so that when I am removed from the management (oikonomias) people will welcome me into their homes.' And he summoned each one of his master's debtors, and he began saying to the first, 'How much do you owe my master?' And he said, 'A hundred measures of oil.' And he said to him, 'Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.' Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe?' And he said, 'A hundred measures of wheat.' He said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty.' And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light. And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal dwellings. He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much. Therefore if you have not been faithful in the use of unrighteous wealth, who will entrust the true riches to you? And if you have not been faithful in the use of that which is another's, who will give you that which is your own? No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.'"

Paul uses the term in 1 Cor. 9:17 when he writes, "For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship (oikonomian) entrusted to me." or as the KJV translates it, "For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me."

In Colossioans 1:25 we read,

1 Colossians 1:25 NAS
"Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship (oikonomian) from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,"

1 Colossians 1:25 KJV
"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation (oikonomian) of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;"

1 Colossians 1:25 NIV
"I have become its servant by the commission (oikonomian) God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness--"

So the term can be found in scripture. However, John Darby radically departed from the Church's historical treatment of the term going all back through the early Church fathers (ECFs). Historically any mention of "dispensation" occurred in context of "covenant." This is not to say they were asserting Covenant Theology as it contemporarily exists. They simply did not see any distinctions between God's covenants and God's dispensations. Similarly, the church has (generally) seen the covenants and the revelation of scripture itself) as a single cohesive but progressive revelation with each covenant initiated by God all covered or subordinate under the one eventually fulfilled covenant found in Christ that existed before the world was creates (1 Pet. 1:20).

So like many, many other streams of thought, doctrinal positions, and relevant practice, Darby departed from what had up to his point been eighteen hundred years of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. Darby argued the dispensations are distinct and unrelated and Dispensationalism continues to teach this position. This is most obvious in their separation of the Jews in the Abrahamic Covenant from the Church. Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary says the following in his book titled, "Dispensationalism," in which he explains dispensations in Dispensational Theology,

"To quote the Century Dictionary bearing on the theological import of the word: '(a) The method or scheme by which God has at different times developed his purpose, and revealed himself to man; or the body of privileges bestowed, and the duties and responsibilities enjoined, in connection with that scheme or method of revelation as the Old of Jewish dispensation; the New Gospel dispensation..."

The Wikipedia article of Dispensationalism summaries the matter well,

"Progressive revelation is the doctrine in Christianity that each successive book of the Bible provides further revelation of God and His program..... Dispensationalism, however, holds that both the Old Testament and New Testament are interpreted using literal grammatical-historical interpretation. As a result, they reject the idea that the meaning of the Old Testament was hidden and that the New Testament can alter the straightforward meaning of the Old Testament. Their view of progressive revelation is that the New Testament contains new information which can build on the Old Testament but cannot change its meaning."

The various dispensations may go by different names or labels but generally you will find seven listed. Pre-sin, Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Moses, Jesus, for example, or the dispensations of innocence, conscience, human governance, promise, law grace, and the millennium (as another example). There some who assert variations, other may have as many as nine, but Dispensationalism generally asserts seven. They've built a whole theology around the word, "oikonomia".
 
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Davy

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In Revelation 13, none of the heads have their crowns because king 7 has just be killed right before the 42 months prior to Jesus's return. The death of king 7 ends the prophecy of the 7 kings.

Then king 7 coming back to life as king 8, he is then the beast.

The idea of the deadly wound being upon the 7th king is a misapplication of both Rev.13 and Rev.17.

Firstly, the "deadly wound" is NOT upon the beast king, which the beast king in Rev.13 is represented by the 2nd beast, the "another beast", the one who does miracles and speaks like a dragon (because he will be the dragon).

The "deadly wound" is upon one of the seven heads, which are "seven mountains".

Rev 13:3
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

KJV

Rev 13:11-13
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
KJV


Per Revelation 17:9, the "seven heads" are "seven mountains" upon which the woman sits, not kings.

And what else are we told about what the symbolic woman sits upon?

Rev 17:1
17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:

KJV

Those "waters" we are shown later in the Revelation 17:15 verse. They represent peoples and nations of the world.



Rev 17:3
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

KJV

That "scarlet coloured beast" has "seven heads and ten horns". Revelation 13:1 showed us that is about the 1st beast that comes up out of the sea, having ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. It's represents a beast world kingdom, as in the next Revelation 13:2 verse the Daniel 7 chapter about beast kingdoms is given as a reference.

Thus the Revelation 17:15 about the waters being peoples and nations is directly related to the beast kingdom of Revelation 13:1, because both is what the symbolic woman sits upon.

This is easy, one only need stay focused.
 
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nolidad

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I agree that Gog/Magog is not Armageddon. There are two feast on the dead in Ezekiel 39. The first on Gog's army, Ezekiel 39:4. The second, the Armageddon event, Ezekiel 39:17-20, 7 years later.


They bury the bodies for 7 months, Ezekiel 39:11-16. The burn the remains of the implements of war for 7 years, Ezekiel 39:9-10. Since it indicates instead of collecting wood (normally used for cooking and heat), it appears to be referring to the diesel fuel in the vehicles.

There is only one feast for the fowls. Verse 4 declares the feast and verses 16-20 is the command God gives for Ezekiel to go feast on the dead! Same event- one is declaring it and the other is the command for the feast. Putting a 7 year gap between the two is an arbitrary and capricious thing to do.

Sorry but the Russia invasion does not start the 70th week of Daniel. The signing of the covenant by the antichrist with Israel does!

They bury the bodies for 7 months, Ezekiel 39:11-16. The burn the remains of the implements of war for 7 years, Ezekiel 39:9-10. Since it indicates instead of collecting wood (normally used for cooking and heat), it appears to be referring to the diesel fuel in the vehicles.

Diesel maybe- but it could also be tthat Rusia uses lignosstone in many of their armaments. It is lighter than aluminum, stronger than steel and burns hotter than coal. We will know for sure when it happens.
 
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Douggg

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12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Davy, the language in verse 12 is indicating king 7 (the head)has transitioned to becoming the beast, king 8, by not acknowledging it was the head that was wounded.

The progression is that king 7 comes to power right before the 7 years. About halfway through, he will be mortally wounded, right before the 42 months. But he recovers.

At the point of recovering, he will have become king 8, known as the beast. The transition is confirmed by the language in verse 12 (which doesn't mention the head because being king 7 will be a thing of the past at that point).

the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
 
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nolidad

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It's all in a book I recently read, containing the latest, peer-reviewed research. It's not cheap though.

https://www.amazon.com/Identity-John-Evangelist-Reinterpretation-Christian/dp/1978709307

Well as I don't have $80 to spend on a book to check your hypothesis, I guess I will hold with 18 centuries of scholarship. And I fully accept the overwhelming empirical evidence that John the Elder (aged) is the apostle John of the book of revelation. John would have been in his sixties when he wrote hie letters and the revelation.
 
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Douggg

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There is only one feast for the fowls. Verse 4 declares the feast and verses 16-20 is the command God gives for Ezekiel to go feast on the dead! Same event- one is declaring it and the other is the command for the feast. Putting a 7 year gap between the two is an arbitrary and capricious thing to do.
Gog's army has been buried and in the grave - before the feast on the dead bodies takes place in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

How can the birds and beasts in Ezekiel 39:17-20 feed on bodies that have been buried, in the previous verses?
 
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nolidad

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No, not to read the law (all of the 613 list of laws ). Moses wrote down a brief law right then and there, as he addressed the nation of Israel - to make the commenorative speech to the nation.

9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

"this" law, the one he was about to verbally command them to do.

10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

I guess you did not read carefully th everse before answering! Let us look at the verses as a whole:

9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and unto all the elders of Israel.

10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

11 When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

12 Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the Lord your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

According to you either Moses wrote a new law instead of the one God gave hom, or he is commanding the Priests every 7 years to read the command to read the command every 7 years. The text clearly shows He is saying to read this law- which is the command to read this law- a circle!

There is no treaty signed. There is no treaty and there is no signing. Confirming the covenant for 7 years is referring to Moses's requirement, which he wrote down as a law, so they would not forget.

Not in Daniel 9! It is a roman prince who signs a covenant with Israel for 7 years and in the middle of the 7 years he breaks the covenant and ends the sacrificial system in the rebuilt temple!

Your mistake is that you see the number 7 in Deut. and assume it is the same thing in Daniel- it is not. Two totally different topics and events at hand!
 
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