A Biblical Defense of Full Preterist Eschatology

LightandTruth said:

Moving ahead to Luke 21, we encounter the most convincing, thoroughly authoritative and blatant monologue by Jesus concerning the timing of His Return and fulfillment of all associated prophecy in the Scriptures.

In Luke 21:5-7 we read, "5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”
7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

Jesus' disciples react in shock when He reveals the impending destruction of the Temple which occurred about forty years later - while most of them were still alive. The question asked by the disciples in verse 7 is clearly ONE question in two parts, referring to the identical event: the final destruction of the Temple. It is NOT (as some futurist expositors and commentators would like to pretend is the case) TWO questions referring to two separate events thousands of years apart. The phrase "these things" clearly is focused on the Temple's destruction in both cases while the first part of the question focuses on the TIMING of the event and the second focuses on the SIGNS of the event's imminent approach.

Thus, in verses 8-36 Jesus responds to this two-part question with a very detailed monologue. I won't get into every detail here verse by verse but it is abundantly clear in both the Book of Acts AND the writings of Josephus that every single "sign" identified in verses 8-19 took place as foretold. Which brings us to verses 20-22, "20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." When the Romans surrounded the city of Jerusalem in the months leading up to its final destruction in 70 AD, the Christians DID flee Judea and were delivered from the horrific events of its final days. Jesus' words in relation to these events which these very disciples and followers of His that He was addressing at this time would experience themselves very blatantly and unequivocally state that all prophecy and Scripture remaining unfulfilled would be fulfilled at this time. All of it. Even if Jesus was just referring to the Torah - the Old Testament Scriptures that had been written at the time He spoke these things - He would still have been including in this statement ALL of Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. In other words, the entire canon of Scripture which would include the New Testament also by the time these things occurred, because the New Testament prophecies and the Old Testament prophecies are too closely linked and tied together - especially Daniel and Revelation. The New Testament Scriptures were all written and spread abroad among the Christians of that day prior to the events of 70 AD.

Finally, in Luke 21:29-33 we read, "
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

The generation to whom Jesus was speaking at this time did NOT pass away before all of the preceding events took place. They did not know "the day or the hour" but they DID know the generation - THEIR generation. Jesus' word cannot possibly be clearer here. The fact that Jesus' words (our Bible) did not pass away when that "world" or "heavens and earth" passed away is proven by the Scriptures we hold in our hands today.

Thus, Luke 19-21 is the boldest defense for the Preterist understanding of Biblical prophecy that we have in God's Word. These chapters simply cannot be interpreted any other way with any degree of integrity or accuracy.

Amen.

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LightandTruth said:

Interesting response! I take the above passages as utterly conclusive in terms of the Full Preterist perspective, whether each individual event can be thoroughly substantiated historically or not. Every sign listed in Luke 21 is verified historically, and the conclusion of the passage is just too obvious. Futurists who claim to "take Jesus at His Word" fail to do so here. It would be too devastating to their position and the resultant hermeneutical treatment of all related passages. When Jesus states that "all things that are written will be fulfilled" in the events of those days - that's the final statement on the matter.

I'm curious though - which prophetic events are you having difficulty understanding as fulfilled? Or seeing evidence thereof?

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LightandTruth said:

Since the "Full Preterist Safehouse" thread is getting a little bulky and lengthy, I thought it might be prudent to start a new, separate Full Preterist discussion thread in this "Controversial Christian Theology" corner of the forum. I hope the moderators don't object. If so, I guess this can always be moved back to the Safehouse thread.

When I introduce other Christians to the Full Preterist perspective on the "end times", I usually take them to the Book of Luke. Chapters 19-21 are so incredibly clear on the timing of Christ Jesus' return in judgment and glory that it is virtually inarguable what Jesus Himself wanted His disciples, followers and future believers in Him to understand concerning the fulfillment of His promises in relation to His Return.

Starting in Luke 19:11, we read, "11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear." The parable that follows (the Parable of the Minas) is very prophetic and focused on the return of the Master, Jesus Christ, to His Servants in judgment upon their efforts to be faithful in completing the mission and task He left to them to administer on His behalf. What the expositors, ministers, preachers and commentators on this passage tend to miss completely (the old "forest for the trees" problem) is the PURPOSE of this parable. And we have it spelled out for us very clearly, right in v.11. The whole purpose is to clarify the TIMING of Jesus' return. His followers expected Jesus to fully establish His kingdom IMMEDIATELY (right in front of their very eyes) that very day. They had no breakfast plans for the next day. This was it. It was happening right then and there. So Jesus presented them with this parable to clarify that there would be a period of time when He would leave them and then return to THEM - within their lifetimes. This is the inescapable, inarguable implication of this parable. No other interpretation is tenable or justifiable. Ministers and preachers get caught up in trying to understand the interpretation of the figurative "pounds" enstrusted to the Master's servants and His standards for judging them, etc. and they miss the whole point of the parable itself.

I would go through these chapters verse by verse but that might be a little too unwieldy and lengthy so I will move ahead to verses 41-44 of chapter 19, "41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” Note that within forty years of Jesus' making these statements Jerusalem was surrounded, as the Romans and their allies laid siege to it, and it was destroyed along with the Temple in exactly these terms.

Skipping ahead to chapter 20:9-19 we read, "9 Then He began to tell the people this parable: “A certain man planted a vineyard, leased it to vinedressers, and went into a far country for a long time. 10 Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the vinedressers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 Again he sent another servant; and they beat him also, treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. 12 And again he sent a third; and they wounded him also and cast him out. 13 “Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my beloved son. Probably they will respect him when they see him.’ 14 But when the vinedressers saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.’ 15 So they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others.”
And when they heard it they said, “Certainly not!” 17 Then He looked at them and said, “What then is this that is written: ‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone’? 18 Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”19 And the chief priests and the scribes that very hour sought to lay hands on Him, but they feared the people—for they knew He had spoken this parable against them."

The history of the Old Testament prophets and saints enduring persecution and attack from false spiritual leaders and enemies of God within the ranks of the religious leadership and hierarchy as described in this parable culminates in that very blatant statement in verse 19 - the chief priests and scribes who were there listening to this parable knew that it was directed very directly and specifically at THEM - those particular individuals alive at that time. The Scriptures don't say that they "mistakenly understood Jesus to be referring to them as those upon whom judgment was coming within their lifetimes". Instead, the clear, unmistakable inference here is that they were CORRECT in identifying themselves as the "vinedressers" in the parable who would end up "killing the heir to the vineyard" (Jesus) and receiving the wrath and judgment of God (the vineyard owner). All of this is not, in any way shape or form, implying some future judgment upon them in the afterlife thousands of years in the future at some future "return in judgment" millennia after their deaths.

I will continue this in a response to this initial post in order to shorten it.

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LightandTruth said:

Maybe you could elaborate a little further on Judgment Day for me, with supporting Scripture. Are you referring to Rev. 20:11-15? The Great White Throne Judgment?

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LightandTruth said:

I'm not sure how my posts above represent "partial preterism" when I clearly indicate that ALL prophecy was fulfilled at that time based on Luke 21:22 and 32. But let's take a peek at Revelation 20. First of all, in v. 11 (skipping ahead to the actual Great White Throne judgment) we read, "11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them." The average Christian with a very perfunctory, casual reading may misunderstand this as a reference to the actual, physical planet and heavenly bodies in the skies overhead. Of course, "the earth and the heaven" in BIBLICAL terms (within the contextual framework of the terminology of the Hebrew prophets) refers to PEOPLE - specifically the spiritual and religious leadership of those days in Judea/Israel (the heaven) and the lay people or common people (the earth). This event involving "fleeing from God's face" seems to be parallel to chapter 6:15-17 where people were hiding in caves in the rocks of the mountains begging them to bury them in order to prevent their exposure to God's face and wrath.

Since this passage is very obviously focused specifically and exclusively on "the earth and the heaven" of ancient, First Century Israel/Judea then we can proceed to understand the rest of it with this same focus. "12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works." Thus, this judgment involving "The Book of Life" and the emptying of "Death and Hades" is exclusively upon "the dead" among the Israelites who were awaiting judgment in the afterlife. This is not a judgment upon all of mankind. The judgment upon the Israelites based upon their "works" was a LAW judgment based on the Old Covenant Mosaic Law.

"14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Here we find that the place of punishment(Death and Hades) in the afterlife for the Israelites who utterly rejected the God of Israel, His Law and their Redeemer, was eternally destroyed in the lake of fire along with anyone at that time whose name was not in the Book of Life.

I hope that clarifies this passage for you somewhat!

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LightandTruth said:

You're welcome summerville! I'm happy to have the opportunity to share here and throw a little more light on this subject from the Scriptures.

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LightandTruth said:

I'm not sure how my posts above represent "partial preterism" when I clearly indicate that ALL prophecy was fulfilled at that time based on Luke 21:22 and 32. But let's take a peek at Revelation 20. First of all, in v. 11 (skipping ahead to the actual Great White Throne judgment) we read, "11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them." The average Christian with a very perfunctory, casual reading may misunderstand this as a reference to the actual, physical planet and heavenly bodies in the skies overhead. Of course, "the earth and the heaven" in BIBLICAL terms (within the contextual framework of the terminology of the Hebrew prophets) refers to PEOPLE - specifically the spiritual and religious leadership of those days in Judea/Israel (the heaven) and the lay people or common people (the earth). This event involving "fleeing from God's face" seems to be parallel to chapter 6:15-17 where people were hiding in caves in the rocks of the mountains begging them to bury them in order to prevent their exposure to God's face and wrath. By the way, for any Christian tempted to interpret "the earth and the heaven" in very physical terms as a reference to our planet and planetary bodies overhead, I would refer you to Psalm 104:5, "You who laid the foundations of the earth,
So that it should not be moved forever". As this is NOT a piece of prophetic literature and the context clearly indicates this to be a reference to the actual planet, we find that this planet is eternal and will NOT "pass away" one day. Dr. Ryrie in his study notes on Revelation 21:1 states that "The present creation will be destroyed so that it may be cleansed from all the effects of sin". Dr. Ryrie is wrong and should have studied his Bible more carefully in the broader context including the Old Testament Scriptures. Here is another text verifying the eternality of this planet and its ecosystems (and, indeed, mankind's ongoing history here), "One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever." (Eccl. 1:4). That's conclusive evidence that understanding Rev. 20:11 and 21:1 in physical, planetary terms is simply not accurate at all. It's a false reading and interpretation. This planet and the physical heavens and stars above us will never "pass away". Ever.

Since this passage is very obviously focused specifically and exclusively on "the earth and the heaven" of ancient, First Century Israel/Judea then we can proceed to understand the rest of it with this same focus. "12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works." Thus, this judgment involving "The Book of Life" and the emptying of "Death and Hades" is exclusively upon "the dead" among the Israelites who were awaiting judgment in the afterlife. This is not a judgment upon all of mankind. The judgment upon the Israelites based upon their "works" was a LAW judgment based on the Old Covenant Mosaic Law.

"14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Here we find that the place of punishment(Death and Hades) in the afterlife for the Israelites who utterly rejected the God of Israel, His Law and their Redeemer, was eternally destroyed in the lake of fire along with anyone at that time whose name was not in the Book of Life.

I hope that clarifies this passage for you somewhat!

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