Things Some Christians Warn Against That Don't Hold Up To Scrutiny

PeterJames0510 said:

Sitting quietly and being attentive to God's presence all around? It honestly sounds like sitting around contemplating your navel to me;

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Contemplating your navel? What is that and why does it sound like being attentive to God to you?

Akita Suggagaki said:

Contemplating your navel? What is that and why does it sound like being attentive to God to you?

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You've never heard this cliche before? There are plenty of Eastern religions that talk about sitting down and 'contemplating' self, God, or anyone else.

The problem is - in this life, we're not going to get close to Him by any mysticism. Contemplating His greatness will not suddenly yield mysterious truths that we couldn't get any other way. We can sit in nature and enjoy nature; nothing wrong with that. But there's no scripture telling us that is required or that it will actually do anything for us.

Instead, Biblical meditation is 'chewing the cud' like some animals do; it takes discipline and instead of emptying or focusing our minds, it take all of our faculties to read, repent, and believe all the truth we're taking into our system. In so much we obey, we are ever walking closer to Him.

Here's John MacArthur talking about the so called 'contemplative' prayer.

MrMoe said:

Here are some things I hear some Christians warn against that in my opinion don't hold up to scrutiny.

Rock and roll is the devil's music
If rock is the devil's music, then what about pop, hip-hop, rap, country, techno, jazz, lounge, opera, instrumental, etc?
Obviously if a song is singing about something clearly evil or that goes against Christian beliefs, than Christians should use discernment. Pop, hip-hop, rap and several other genres of music can also have evil, anti-Christian lifestyle lyrics. It's not exclusive to rock. They can also have good messages that line up with the Christian lifestyle, including rock.
Dismissing something as evil just because it's in a certain genre seems like Christians throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There are sinister backmasked messages in popular songs
They say if you play Stairway To Heaven and some other songs backwards you will hear an evil message during a specific part of the song. This begs the question, how was this even discovered? Was there some guy sitting around his house one evening, wondering "Hmm, what can I do right now? Maybe I could cook dinner, maybe I could watch the news... No, I think I'll listen to Stairway To Heaven backwards."
To me this is just pareidolia. People hear what they want to hear. If a person has already made up their mind that something is evil, they will look for things that confirm that belief. Basically it's confirmation bias. The funny thing is different people hear different things and others say they just hear gibberish. Evidence that this is pareidolia.


"Emptying your mind" during metitation leaves you open to demonic infestation.
I've seen some Christians warn against this type of meditation here on this forum, but if you ask them to clarify what they mean exactly by emptying your mind I doubt you will get a clear, consistant answer. Your brain is always working 24/7 even when you're asleep, so technically it's never empty.
I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure on nights when we are asleep and don't dream then that means we are not actively thinking. So doesn't that mean our minds are empty according to these Christians? So does that mean we are basically an open door while we're sleeping?
If the devil is capable of putting thoughts in someone's head then I pretty sure he can do it regardless of wheather they have thoughts their head or not.


You can post your own things you think Christians warn against that don't hold up to scrutiny if you want. (Just don't go after a specific denomination's beliefs. Make it in general.)

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As a counter question I ask: does rock music bring peace of mind and body bringing you to quiet contemplative prayer, or does it make you want to shake those hips, wave your hands, bang your head, and motivate you to worldly things? Even the most benign rock music is generally filled with sexual themes of "free love". Christian rock music in my opinion is also not so good as it encourages people to be far more engrossed in the quality of the rhythm and melody, than the often shallow lyrics. There are a few bands I think are different - I really liked DC talk back in the 90s, but groups like that are few and far between. Not only that, but shouldn't our music be as close to what is going on in heaven? Traditional Christian chant was modeled after what was heard in visions of the angels singing to the throne. It was all about the WORDS and how much theology and scripture could be fit into them.

MrMoe said:

Here are some things I hear some Christians warn against that in my opinion don't hold up to scrutiny.

Rock and roll is the devil's music
If rock is the devil's music, then what about pop, hip-hop, rap, country, techno, jazz, lounge, opera, instrumental, etc?
Obviously if a song is singing about something clearly evil or that goes against Christian beliefs, than Christians should use discernment. Pop, hip-hop, rap and several other genres of music can also have evil, anti-Christian lifestyle lyrics. It's not exclusive to rock. They can also have good messages that line up with the Christian lifestyle, including rock.
Dismissing something as evil just because it's in a certain genre seems like Christians throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There are sinister backmasked messages in popular songs
They say if you play Stairway To Heaven and some other songs backwards you will hear an evil message during a specific part of the song. This begs the question, how was this even discovered? Was there some guy sitting around his house one evening, wondering "Hmm, what can I do right now? Maybe I could cook dinner, maybe I could watch the news... No, I think I'll listen to Stairway To Heaven backwards."
To me this is just pareidolia. People hear what they want to hear. If a person has already made up their mind that something is evil, they will look for things that confirm that belief. Basically it's confirmation bias. The funny thing is different people hear different things and others say they just hear gibberish. Evidence that this is pareidolia.


"Emptying your mind" during metitation leaves you open to demonic infestation.
I've seen some Christians warn against this type of meditation here on this forum, but if you ask them to clarify what they mean exactly by emptying your mind I doubt you will get a clear, consistant answer. Your brain is always working 24/7 even when you're asleep, so technically it's never empty.
I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure on nights when we are asleep and don't dream then that means we are not actively thinking. So doesn't that mean our minds are empty according to these Christians? So does that mean we are basically an open door while we're sleeping?
If the devil is capable of putting thoughts in someone's head then I pretty sure he can do it regardless of wheather they have thoughts their head or not.


You can post your own things you think Christians warn against that don't hold up to scrutiny if you want. (Just don't go after a specific denomination's beliefs. Make it in general.)

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I definitely see some truth to what your saying. For the most part these statements are quite vague and may be true in some cases and may not be true in others. So in a way I guess you could say that they have some truth to them but can’t be considered to be true in all cases.

Strathos said:

I thought #2 hasn't been taken seriously since the 80s.

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Yeah I think that was the last time I heard that one to.

Cis.jd said:

Because how can you tell me or anyone that I "refuse to accept what is real" yet think that magicians like Shin Lim are doing connected to something supernatural?

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So... what your saying is, "how can you tell me or anyone that I "refuse to accept what is real"
When you refuse to accept that magicians like Shin Lim are aided by demonic entities?
When they even state that they are aided by demonic entities?

Seriously?

Cis.jd said:

The "can you guess my name" is metaphorical. When you listen to the actual music, it turns out that it is entirely philosophical and nothing of any religious views. It's actually trying to say that man is the devil himself because the atrocities we've had are done by us.

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Of course... because the man was there when "Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain"
Also around when "Anastasia screamed in vain"
Also around when "When the Blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank"
Also around when... well just look...

This you say.... is philosophical? I say it's " in your face so hard... you don't even see it"



[Verse 1]
Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith
I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

[Chorus]
Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game

[Verse 2]
I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the Czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank, held a general's rank
When the Blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank

[Chorus]
Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game

[Verse 3]
I watched with glee while your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades for the gods they made
I shouted out, "Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all, it was you and me
Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reach Bombay

[Chorus]
Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game

Oh yeah, get down heavy!

[Guitar Solo]

[Chorus - Variation]
Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name, oh yeah
But what's confusin' you is just the nature of my game

[Verse 4]
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails, just call me Lucifer
Cause I'm in need of some restraint
So if you meet me, have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste

[Chorus]
Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name
But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game

[Instrumental outro with scatting and ad-lib vocals]

Thomas White said:

Why would passivity and meditation relate to one another? In meditation, you aren't accepting anything, passively or actively. You're trying to clear your mind of clutter.

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Many people think of meditation as practised by eastern religions, yoga devotees and such. Yoga has crept into a number of churches around our area. Some Pentecostals have a wacky idea of getting the Holy Spirit through waving hands like an aerial and totally blanking their minds.

All the definitions of meditation that I've found involve thinking, apart from eastern mysticism. If you choose to stop thinking, fine. That is not biblical meditation.

"Meditation means “the act of focusing one’s thoughts: to ponder, think on, muse.” Meditation consists of reflective thinking or contemplation, usually on a specific subject to discern its meaning or significance or a plan of action.

Some synonyms would be contemplation, reflection, rumination, deep thinking, or remembering in the sense of keeping or calling something to mind for the purpose of cons."

JacksBratt said:

So... what your saying is, "how can you tell me or anyone that I "refuse to accept what is real"
When you refuse to accept that magicians like Shin Lim are aided by demonic entities?
When they even state that they are aided by demonic entities?

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Yes. If you can't accept something so obvious and factual to be just a performance then you can't tell what is real and what is not. Not to be personal, but this is completely dense to even question.

Of course... because the man was there when "Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain"
Also around when "Anastasia screamed in vain"
Also around when "When the Blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank"
Also around when... well just look...

This you say.... is philosophical? I say it's " in your face so hard... you don't even see it"

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It's philosophical, because when you actually listen to the lyrics you know that isn't satan. The problem is you read things and (wrongfully) interpret them because of this fundamental scope. No research, no actual looking into the facts, just read a sentence and think directly this is what it means. You are unaware of things such as figure of speech or portrayals and you can't even understand why you are factually wrong about this.

I don't even need to quote all the lyrics, just look at these two for example:

Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank, held a general's rank

Satan never did any of that. Anastasia was killed by people, generals are men in power they are the ones commanding the orders of the tanks. Then you have "who killed the kennedys". These are all of man. This is what the song is about.

Sympathy For The Devil by The Rolling Stones - Songfacts
The Story behind ‘Sympathy For The Devil’
"Jagger claims this is about the dark side of man, not a celebration of Satanism."

WolfGate said:

...
Legal slavery, lynchings in the US, state sanctioned death by torture during the times many of the great hymns were written for even minor infractions, Nazisim. The list really could go on forever. Evil still exist for sure, but horrific evil has been more prevalent before Elvis shook his hips. (Or was it really Chuck Berry, who just didn't get the credit?)

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Firstly, I think death penalty is not evil, if it is for those who are criminals and for example murder people.

And slavery still exists, everyone who must pay taxes, or interest, is a slave.

Nazism, socialism in its all forms, or fascism also still exists. The whole mainstream media is fascistic.

I think governments and people are more corrupt than ever. But, all evil is not clearly visible to all yet.

Cis.jd said:

Yes. If you can't accept something so obvious and factual to be just a performance then you can't tell what is real and what is not. Not to be personal, but this is completely dense to even question.


It's philosophical, because when you actually listen to the lyrics you know that isn't satan. The problem is you read things and (wrongfully) interpret them because of this fundamental scope. No research, no actual looking into the facts, just read a sentence and think directly this is what it means. You are unaware of things such as figure of speech or portrayals and you can't even understand why you are factually wrong about this.

I don't even need to quote all the lyrics, just look at these two for example:

Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank, held a general's rank

Satan never did any of that. Anastasia was killed by people, generals are men in power they are the ones commanding the orders of the tanks. Then you have "who killed the kennedys". These are all of man. This is what the song is about.

Sympathy For The Devil by The Rolling Stones - Songfacts
The Story behind ‘Sympathy For The Devil’
"Jagger claims this is about the dark side of man, not a celebration of Satanism."

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Sure.... whatever........Jagger said it... must be legit......Cause coming out and saying it was all about Satan would go over so well.... right..

MrMoe said:

Yes, really. You said all genres. Christian hymn music is a type of genre.

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Sorry, thought it would be understood that "Rock" is a genre... "Christian Rock" is the Christian portion of the "rock" genre....

Does that help?

MrMoe said:

I disagree. The devil used Scripture to try to tempt Jesus, so I don't doubt he can use even Christian things against Christians.

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True.. however, I doubt he was using "Petra" and Keith Green.... seriously.
Sooner or later those fakes are exposed simply by their lives and walk with Christ....

Safe to say that listening to "Black Sabbath" is going to have more of a chance of being Satanic... Than Paul Overstreet....

MrMoe said:

These are the obvious ones to be avoided. Another member says some of these really aren't about the devil, but even if they are, what are the dangers of listening to them? Will I lose my salvation if I listen to any of these songs? Will I get a sudden urge to leave Christianity and join the occult?

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If you are truly saved... you will not "lose your salvation" by listening.. What it can do is lead you away from your walk with Christ... cause you to be a stumbling block to those still searching... or.. just purchasing this tripe... is funding the cause of Satanic artists who are polluting the world of music.

MrMoe said:

This is anecdotal evidence. You can't say that much of rock and roll is of the devil just by listening to some rock songs.
This would be like a person seeing some paintings with nudity in them and saying "Much of art is inappropriate contentographic" or an atheist meeting some members of Westboro Baptist Church and saying "Much of Christianity is hateful."

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True enough.... I find that as I age.. my discernment of what is plainly not of God.. is more sensitive.

Even if it is not Satanic... it doesn't honor my Creator or savior...

MrMoe said:

Freddy's life is kind of irrelevent to this discussion. I mean would you stop using the internet if one day we found out the creator of the internet was a devil worshipper?

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That's a ridiculous statement... I don't condemn music because of Freddy's life... I condemn Freddies art and understand the source of his talent and the purpose of his message.

MrMoe said:

As for his music, I can't remember all his lyrics but most seem worldy rather than outright evil.

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Maybe pull it up sometime and read through them.

MrMoe said:

What about these examples:

Creed - With Arms Wide Open. A song about the lead singer welcoming his first child into the world.

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Not all 100% is going to be satanic.

MrMoe said:

Kanye West - Jesus Walks. A song about the artist asking God for help against the attacks of the devil.

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Kanye? seriously... I'm not going to judge this guy... I'll wait and see where this whole thing goes.

MrMoe said:

U2 - Yahweh.

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U2 has strong biblical connections.

MrMoe said:

Any probably many others. These are all rockand rap songs.

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Firstly.... Rap is not music.. .let's get that straight... It may be art... but not music LOL.

Secondly, Not all, 100% of any band or music genre is satanic... However, there is much of it that is.

To ignore or deny that is just careless.

MrMoe said:

Then how do you explain me and several of other members here who have confessed to listening to rock music?

I listened to Led Zeppelin for years and never got the urge to leave Christianity, burn down a church, join a cult or do anything outright evil. It didn't lull me into his way of thinking. So why didn't it work on us?

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What is there to explain? I listened to and still listen to all kinds of Rock music.....

We just need to understand that it is a tool of Satan, against the youth... and should be recognized as such and respected for it's dangers.

MrMoe said:

This gives me more reason to hate country music.

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Many people don't need much of a reason to hate country music.. Just like, for me, Rap makes me agitated and causes me to question the whole music industry.

That's the thing about music.... different people, different tastes..

There is a place in revelations, I don't have time right now to find it.... but it something to the regard that after the tribulation, end of time, whatever, music will be taken away from those in hell.. Only heaven will have music..

Can you imagine a world without music? Seriously? It is such a huge part of my life... a huge part of the worship of God, a huge art that make my life so much more tolerable...

To have that taken away.... can you imagine that?

JacksBratt said:

Sure.... whatever........Jagger said it... must be legit......Cause coming out and saying it was all about Satan would go over so well.... right..

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well the lyrics themselves make it obvious that is about man. Learn to read metaphors, figures of speech, and allegories and stop wanting satan in everything.

Cis.jd said:

well the lyrics themselves make it obvious that is about man. Learn to read metaphors, figures of speech, and allegories and stop wanting satan in everything.

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I disagree. The lyrics are solid proof that it is about a being that has been around for much more than a life time...not a man.
So.... let's just agree that we disagree... shall we?

JacksBratt said:

I disagree. The lyrics are solid proof that it is about a being that has been around for much more than a life time...not a man.
So.... let's just agree that we disagree... shall we?

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I already shown you examples with in the lyrics that show it isn't satan. All of what is being said there happen during the man's walk on earth. You need to learn how to understand metaphors.

Cis.jd said:

I already shown you examples with in the lyrics that show it isn't satan. All of what is being said there happen during the man's walk on earth. You need to learn how to understand metaphors.

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LOL saying something over and over does not make it true. You have shown nothing of the sort.

During the mans walk on earth? Seriously? It was around at times mentioned.. over millennia...

Sorry Cis... I'm over and out...on this dead horse.

MrMoe said:

Emptying your mind" during metitation leaves you open to demonic infestation.
I've seen some Christians warn against this type of meditation here on this forum, but if you ask them to clarify what they mean exactly by emptying your mind I doubt you will get a clear, consistant answer. Your brain is always working 24/7 even when you're asleep, so technically it's never empty.
I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure on nights when we are asleep and don't dream then that means we are not actively thinking. So doesn't that mean our minds are empty according to these Christians? So does that mean we are basically an open door while we're sleeping?
If the devil is capable of putting thoughts in someone's head then I pretty sure he can do it regardless of wheather they have thoughts their head or not.

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It is impossible to empty your mind. I practiced TM for a few years in the 80's then became what is called a Sidha. I was demonically attacked through the use of meditation while interjecting Hindu type supernatural "things" to manifest. So yes on this one! don't do anything that tells you to repeat a word over and over. In this case a mantra.
Blessings

PeterJames0510 said:

You've never heard this cliche before? There are plenty of Eastern religions that talk about sitting down and 'contemplating' self, God, or anyone else.

The problem is - in this life, we're not going to get close to Him by any mysticism. Contemplating His greatness will not suddenly yield mysterious truths that we couldn't get any other way. We can sit in nature and enjoy nature; nothing wrong with that. But there's no scripture telling us that is required or that it will actually do anything for us.

Instead, Biblical meditation is 'chewing the cud' like some animals do; it takes discipline and instead of emptying or focusing our minds, it take all of our faculties to read, repent, and believe all the truth we're taking into our system. In so much we obey, we are ever walking closer to Him.

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I agree with you that "meditation" as spoken of in most of the Bible refers more to a rumination, an active mental process. A more passive process of attentive presence, quiet listening, watching and waiting, is not identified with a Biblical process of "meditation".

Maybe that is where we differ. Just because the Bible does not specifically and explicitly make the identificatin does not mean it is dangerous, in fact it is quite natural. There is nothing what so ever in the Bible that bans or speaks in warning about just sitting quietly without word or thought, resting in God. "I have stilled and quieted my soul. Like a child at rest in its mother's arms, even so my soul." Psalm 131