IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

timothyu

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with a completely NEW NATURE
The new nature was always there but just not activated. The HS just acts as a body guard to keep the woes and ways of the world from interfering where you go back to trying to handle things your way, shutting off the Father switch again and closing the conduit to Him

Something else Jesus taught was who we are, not separate or outside of God, but extensions of God, one with God.. Like a backup camera on a car which is either off or on. God is all, all is God. If you don't know that, the conduit is not tuned on and there is no rebirth.

God experiences His creation through His creation because He is creation, not outside of it.
 
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CharismaticLady

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The new nature was always there but just not activated. The HS just acts as a body guard to keep the woes and ways of the world from interfering where you go back to trying to handle things your way, shutting off the Father switch again and closing the conduit to Him

Something else Jesus taught was who we are, not separate or outside of God, but extensions of God, one with God.. Like a backup camera on a car which is either off or on.

No, we had the Adamic nature. Jesus is the new Adam that takes away that sin nature and replaces it with His own nature. This is why we must be born again.
 
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timothyu

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No, we had the Adamic nature. Jesus is the new Adam that takes away that sin nature and replaces it with His own nature. This is why we must be born again.
Again if we don not know who we are, extensions of God, then that conduit is not turned on and there is no rebirth if we still see ourselves as separate. No oneness, no rebirth from seeing ourselves as flesh to seeing who we really are a part of.
 
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CharismaticLady

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God is all, all is God

God experiences His creation through His creation because He is creation, not outside of it.

I'm sorry, but both of these sound very New Age. If that were true Jesus would not have had to come, and everyone inherit heaven.

I'll be back later. I need COFFEE!!!
 
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CharismaticLady

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Again if we don not know who we are, extensions of God, then that conduit is not turned on and there is no rebirth if we still see ourselves as separate. No oneness, no rebirth from seeing ourselves as flesh to seeing who we really are a part of.

No, the rebirth must come first. IOW repentance of our sin is the path to Jesus and the rebirth. Then we can know who we are in Christ, because He takes up residence in us. This is why John the Baptist came first preparing the way for He who would after him.
 
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timothyu

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I'm sorry, but both of these sound very New Age. If that were true Jesus would not have had to come, and everyone inherit heaven.
Jesus taught the oneness so it's not new. Jesus came to bring the Kingdom to fruition. It is there thanks to Him and free to all who switch allegiance from those of self who see themselves as separate from God and each other, to allegiance to the Kingdom where those who see each other as being ourselves and of God, will enter.
 
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timothyu

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No, the rebirth must come first. IOW repentance of our sin is the path to Jesus
You don't know what to repent of (or even what sin is ... which is our will before God's) unless you first are given two alternatives. World vs Kingdom. Our will vs His.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Exactly... according to some people , not God. As Jesus told the gang, truth comes from God not man. Man is already tainted with the self serving will of previous man.

yeah don’t address the problem with Calvin’s theology making God’s punishment on the unelected unjust. I completely understand why you don’t want to explain that one.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You are being combative and rude and arrogant against the Word of God because you claim to choose Jesus and you practice denial of the Christian Truth of the exclusive choice by God intrinsic quality of Lord Jesus Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) applies to all believers in all time as the Word of God Himself expresses!

He didn’t say that in the context that no one can choose to believe in Him. Nothing in the entire chapter even remotely indicates what your suggesting. In John 6 many of His disciples left Him and didn’t follow Him anymore. Why did they believe then turn to unbelief? Were they chosen by God then rejected? Apostasy is mentioned several times throughout the New Testament.


“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:35-39‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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CharismaticLady

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You don't know what to repent of (or even what sin is ... which is our will before God's) unless you first are given two alternatives. World vs Kingdom. Our will vs His.

Even then it is not the knowledge of knowing which one or two sins you need to repent of, but the shocking realization that you are a complete failure to be holy. Your whole nature draws you to darkness no matter how you try in yourself, your willpower, to be conscious of God's laws. Why? Because God's laws haven't been written on your heart. They are only memory verses. You are not in charge of your desires. They are in charge of you. This dilemma and struggle is depicted in Romans 7 and is mankinds's state of being before Christ. It is all head knowledge and not spirit knowledge. It is before our nature has been born again of the Spirit.

We have to acknowledge our SIN, not just individual sins, but the whole SIN NATURE. 1 Corinthians 2 teaches that there is no way that you and I can really know one another unless there was some way for me to literally get inside of you, and you could get inside of me, and we become one person. Then we will know each other fully. That is what happens when we are born again. Jesus comes inside us, and we have new instincts that match His. New desires that we didn't have before. And new power against sin that before didn't exist by mere head knowledge, or as Romans 7 puts it, of the mind. This is called abiding in Jesus, and He in us. This experience is something that not all who claim to be Christians have achieved. Why? Because they have never truly repented. It takes more than an afterthought of, "and oh yeah, and forgive me of my sins." Study Psalms 51 after David slept with Bathsheba. That is true repentance. Especially, create in me a clean heart, and renew a right spirit with in me. Those were the words I actually prayed the night I was filled to overflowing by God's Spirit. I literally felt it, and the difference in power was extreme. I was a completely different person.
 
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timothyu

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Even then it is not the knowledge of knowing which one or two sins you need to repent of, but the shocking realization that you are a complete failure to be holy.
That should be no surprise after what is written about people in the OT. But I am not talking of one or two sins. I am talking of the origin and only sin of putting our will ahead of God's, in opposition to what Jesus taught about the Kingdom and putting the Father's will first, His will be done in earth as it is in heaven.. Christians today still put their will first thinking they can use a different gospel than that of the Kingdom/governance of God. Choosing whose will goes first is mandatory, while learning to live without our animal nature of self interest comes second.

I know of no one, no matter how well meaning they are, that can get past being who our animal nature makes us and becomes sin free regardless of what is written on our hearts. We will stumble until death. God said animals were forgiven for their nature because the did not know better. We became self aware, so we don;t have that luxury of forgiveness the rest of the species have, and must show by our fruits where our allegiance lies, even if we stumble on occasion. Jesus gave us the Kingdom, not a free pass to those who remain loyal to the self serving ways of man.

If the world of man does not hate you as Jesus said it would for those of the Kingdom, then you have not dropped out of their system and refused to play their game.
 
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CharismaticLady

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That should be no surprise after what is written about people in the OT. But I am not talking of one or two sins. I am talking of the origin and only sin of putting our will ahead of God's, in opposition to what Jesus taught about the Kingdom and putting the Father's will first, His will be done in earth as it is in heaven.. Christians today still put their will first thinking they can use a different gospel than that of the Kingdom/governance of God. Choosing whose will goes first is mandatory, while learning to live without our animal nature of self interest comes second.

I know of no one, no matter how well meaning they are, that can get past being who our animal nature makes us and becomes sin free regardless of what is written on our hearts. We will stumble until death. God said animals were forgiven for their nature because the did not know better. We became self aware, so we don;t have that luxury of forgiveness the rest of the species have, and must show by our fruits where our allegiance lies, even if we stumble on occasion. Jesus gave us the Kingdom, not a free pass to those who remain loyal to the self serving ways of man.

If the world of man does not hate you as Jesus said it would for those of the Kingdom, then you have not dropped out of their system and refused to play their game.

I agree about allegiance. But it still seems that you believe the power that makes us choose God's way is all our own doing through just learning. I disagree, and so does Paul, Peter and John. You are not giving credit to God's Spirit given to us, and assume we always had Him in us. My friend, that is a major error. I am interested in the scriptures you use to back up that theory. Is it about a Christian, or one of the misinterpreted scriptures about mankind before Christ. Most of the Church doesn't give emphasis to the Spirit, and hardly any denomination or non-denomination teaches that the Spirit is the key to being born again. A must for inheriting the Kingdom of God.

One of the reasons in some denominations is the prejudice against Pentecostals. Or holy rollers as some mockingly used to call them. But the gifts of the Spirit are secondary to the number one reason for the gift of the person of the Holy Spirit being given to us by Jesus after repentance. And that is for the freedom from sin. Another fallacy taught in those denominations is that "we will always sin," which shows complete ignorance in why we must be born again and become partakers of the divine nature. The old nature can never become Christlike; only the Spirit can change us that dramatically. Sinners will not inherit the Kingdom; only those Jesus makes free indeed. John 8:34-36; 1 John 3:1-24
 
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BNR32FAN

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The Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14).

The Word of God is crucial. I cite the Word of God, but you take offense to the Word of God.

A relevant conclusion founded on the Word of God yet leveraging your assertions is an act of charity (love). You think it is hateful (Romans 8:8). It is loving to proclaim the Truth (John 14:6), the Word of God (John 1:14).

A person must believe in the One True God, and God is the very source of belief/faith (John 6:29), and God declares Who God is in the Word of God.

God declares God's intrinsic quality of choosing people while at the same time declaring the creature's inability to choose God.

Thus, when the creature shakes it's fist back at God by questioning God with "Why did you make me like this" (Romans 9:18-23), or by the creature's denial of God's Word (John 8:43).

When the creature tries to steal the exclusive attribute of choice by God which glory of God is reserved to God by God, then the creature denies God (see Exodus 20).

Lord Jesus declares something very crucial, He says "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), so even His words recorded in Matthew 18:2-4 requires the Grand Creator's presence in the creature.

Critically, the words of Jesus that the Apostle Matthew recorded in Matthew 18:2-4 indicate the importance of being born again (see John 3:3-8), so the Power of God must be present for the creature to be humble.

Lord Jesus tells us that we are to receive the Word of God as children. We are not to intellectualize which includes imposing upon the Word of God, so when the creature declares that the Creator's words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are invalid to the creature then that same creature declares that the creature chose the Creator - then by extension - that means that the creature did not choose the Creator for the Creator declares such an action of choice by the creature as invalid.

A friend of Jesus HONORS the Word of God for the Word of God is Jesus!

Now your using God’s word to justify your own lust for anger. There’s no need to resort to rude and impolite remarks. Even after my apology after having said nothing impolite to you, you still couldn’t humble yourself to return in kindness.
 
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Kermos

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God offers us the Kingdom. We chose whether to remain worldly by nature or take His offer therefore now living in it's ways, no longer supportive of mankind's self serving world..
Your post is devoid of scripture citation.

Your words are wrong where you wrote a person can choose toward God for the Word of God declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
 
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Kermos

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He didn’t say that in the context that no one can choose to believe in Him. Nothing in the entire chapter even remotely indicates what your suggesting. In John 6 many of His disciples left Him and didn’t follow Him anymore. Why did they believe then turn to unbelief? Were they chosen by God then rejected? Apostasy is mentioned several times throughout the New Testament.


“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:35-39‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
There is no scripture that states a person can choose to believe in God, yet the Word of God is not silent on the matter of (1) the source of belief and (2) the One that does the choosing and (3) the ones that do not do the choosing.

In John 6 the learners (disciples) that left are not identified specifically as believers, in fact, they are identified as unbelievers because they did not believe in Who Jesus said He is by His words.

In Matthew 24:10-13 Lord Jesus used the words "fall away" which is not the same as "fall out of"; in other words, the ones that "fall away" on not on inside.

Hebrews 10:35-39 indicates nothing about choosing to believe towards God.

1 Timothy 4:1 contains "fall away" like Matthew 24:10-13, not "fall out of".

Galatians 1:6 with respect to Paul using the word "called", Lord Jesus says "Many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).

Hebrews 3:12 actually clarifies the "fall away" phrase contrasted to "fall out of" phrase with this phrase in Hebrews 3:12 "an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away".

I have wondered about Luke 8:13, so I thank my Lord and Savior Jesus for this correspondence. Let us examine the Word of God.

EXAMINING LUKE 8:13

"Those on the rocky [soil are] those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no [firm] root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away"

The first clause "Those on the rocky [soil are] those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy".

This is clear, they received the word with joy.

The second clause is dependent on the first, but the NASB translators added the word "[firm]", so it should be removed for clarity, and here is the second clause "and these have no root". Jesus is the Root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:10). Jesus is the Vine (John 15:1).

The third clause is also dependent "they believe for a while", but Jesus did not specifically state that they believe in Jesus for a while.

The fourth clause is also dependent "and in time of temptation fall away" which contains "fall away" not "fall out of".

In all of this, Lord Jesus remains consistent with His words which include "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" (John 10:27-29).

Not a single verse you cited indicates that a person chose to believe towards God.

Now, behold the salvation of the Lord Jesus, the Power of God:

God produces divine choice of we believers unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God

God produces believer's faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek ?????? pistis) and believe (Greek ??????? pisteuó))

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God

God produces believer's fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says

"he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is by/of/through God

God produces believer's birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is by/of/through God

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
 
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Kermos

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Now your using God’s word to justify your own lust for anger. There’s no need to resort to rude and impolite remarks. Even after my apology after having said nothing impolite to you, you still couldn’t humble yourself to return in kindness.

It is loving to declare the Word of God, and it is humble to declare that God does it all in respect to man's salvation.

It is prideful to contradict the Word of God by claiming a choice towards God for God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

By the way, notice that Lord Jesus speaks of friendship with His own (John 15:13-15) between where Jesus identifies Himself as the True Vine (John 15:1) and His exclusive intrinsic quality of choosing us beleivers (John 15:16, John 15:19).

Thus, if you, BNR32FAN, deny that the "you" in "I chose you out of the world" in John 15:19 applies to you, then by extension the "you" in "you are My friends" does not apply to you, BNR32FAN, either.
 
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BNR32FAN

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There is no scripture that states a person can choose to believe in God,


“Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is an interesting question Jesus asks Martha. Notice He didn’t say you will believe this or you will not believe this, He leaves it for her to decide.

In John 20, Thomas, an apostle chosen by Christ, doubted Jesus’ resurrection until he saw Jesus and put his finger into His side.

“So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:25-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Also an interesting note in the last statements of this chapter right after this took place.


“Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:30-31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The word “you” in these statements pertain to anyone who reads this gospel. Now some will read it and not believe and some will read it and believe but the indication here is that the gospel was written in order to persuade people to believe.

Now this next one you HAVE REPEATEDLY DODGED despite my posting it several times and repeatedly asked you to explain how this can not refer to us having a choice in believing.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Right here Paul is saying that God’s kindness is leading them to repentance but because of their stubbornness and unrepentant heart they are storing up God’s wrath for themselves. These people have received God’s grace and are rejecting it because of their own stubbornness. They are choosing not to repent. This clearly shows that repentance is a choice we must all make.
 
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Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
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“Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
â€â€John‬ â€11:25-26‬ â€NASB‬‬

This is an interesting question Jesus asks Martha. Notice He didn’t say you will believe this or you will not believe this, He leaves it for her to decide.

In John 20, Thomas, an apostle chosen by Christ, doubted Jesus’ resurrection until he saw Jesus and put his finger into His side.

“So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."”
â€â€John‬ â€20:25-29‬ â€NASB‬‬

Also an interesting note in the last statements of this chapter right after this took place.


“Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
â€â€John‬ â€20:30-31‬ â€NASB‬‬

The word “you” in these statements pertain to anyone who reads this gospel. Now some will read it and not believe and some will read it and believe but the indication here is that the gospel was written in order to persuade people to believe.

Now this next one you HAVE REPEATEDLY DODGED despite my posting it several times and repeatedly asked you to explain how this can not refer to us having a choice in believing.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
â€â€Romans‬ â€2:4-5‬ â€NASB‬‬

Right here Paul is saying that God’s kindness is leading them to repentance but because of their stubbornness and unrepentant heart they are storing up God’s wrath for themselves. These people have received God’s grace and are rejecting it because of their own stubbornness. They are choosing not to repent. This clearly shows that repentance is a choice we must all make.

In John 11:25-26, Lord Jesus does not ask "Do you choose to believe this?" nor did the question convey ability to choose towards God. He Who knows all things prompted her for a confession with her mouth with "Do you believe this?" which can only be answered from the treasure of the heart, and Jesus explains the treasure of the heart.

In John 20:25-29, Thomas never mentions "choose" or it's conjugates - not explicitly nor implicitly. His first statement "I will not believe" is not choosing towards God rather Thomas merely states conditions that Thomas defined. This time Jesus Who knows all things tells Thomas to reach, see, and reach and put, yet immediately after the King of glory says "do not be unbelieving, but believing", so behold the Holy One does not say "but choose to be believing" rather He says "but believing". Then Thomas makes a beautiful confession with his mouth "My Lord and my God!" from the treasure of the heart, and Jesus explains the treasure of the heart. In the balance of the passage, Lord Jesus never says "chose to believe", but He does say "have you believed" as well as "and yet believed".

In John 20:30-31, John does not write "you may choose to believe" rather he wrote "you may believe"; furthermore, John does not write "and that choosing to believe" rather he wrote "and that believing".

In all of these passages there is no "choose to believe", but you have inserted "choose to believe" into the passages with your imagination. Every time you try to put Jesus into the position of speaking against Himself which respect to choosing towards God, you put yourself into a very wicked position.

Now, regarding Romans 2:4-5, you have added the phrase "choosing not to repent", yet Paul wrote "the kindness of God leads you to repentance", so you miss the point that repentance is something God does in people; therefore, the question in Romans 2:4 puts a limiting factor on the sentence in Romans 2:5.

Repentance is from God, and here is the explanation:

BIBLE CITATION: For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10).

The Apostle Paul did not write "sorrow that is according to your free will to choose God" - no he did NOT - the Apostle Paul ascribed to God that which is rightly God's - Godly sorrow leading to repentance to salvation!

Behold, more of Paul's writing:

BIBLE CITATION: Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).

Notice that rebuke of people that despise repentance being from God!

BIBLE CITATION: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)

See that God grants repentance.

BIBLE CITATION: with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25)

God grants repentance; therefore, repentance is not a work conjured up by man nor by man's "choice".

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
 
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Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
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@Francis Drake @CharismaticLady and @BNR32FAN

The Word of God is true, and the Word of God states that all glory of man's salvation is God's, and man cannot even choose God, and for the creature to indicate otherwise is to deny God.

It is rebellion to deny the Word of God Who clearly states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which applies to salvation since He continued with "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

For the creature to say that the creature can do that which the Creator declares it cannot do is for the creature to deny the Creator for the Creator sets the rules.

For a person to say that these quotes of the Word of God only applies to the apostles is for such a person to lay claim to being superior to the apostles.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
 
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Francis Drake

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In John 11:25-26, Lord Jesus does not ask "Do you choose to believe this?" nor did the question convey ability to choose towards God. He Who knows all things prompted her for a confession with her mouth with "Do you believe this?" which can only be answered from the treasure of the heart, and Jesus explains the treasure of the heart.

In John 20:25-29, Thomas never mentions "choose" or it's conjugates - not explicitly nor implicitly. His first statement "I will not believe" is not choosing towards God rather Thomas merely states conditions that Thomas defined. This time Jesus Who knows all things tells Thomas to reach, see, and reach and put, yet immediately after the King of glory says "do not be unbelieving, but believing", so behold the Holy One does not say "but choose to be believing" rather He says "but believing". Then Thomas makes a beautiful confession with his mouth "My Lord and my God!" from the treasure of the heart, and Jesus explains the treasure of the heart. In the balance of the passage, Lord Jesus never says "chose to believe", but He does say "have you believed" as well as "and yet believed".

In John 20:30-31, John does not write "you may choose to believe" rather he wrote "you may believe"; furthermore, John does not write "and that choosing to believe" rather he wrote "and that believing".

In all of these passages there is no "choose to believe", but you have inserted "choose to believe" into the passages with your imagination. Every time you try to put Jesus into the position of speaking against Himself which respect to choosing towards God, you put yourself into a very wicked position.

Now, regarding Romans 2:4-5, you have added the phrase "choosing not to repent", yet Paul wrote "the kindness of God leads you to repentance", so you miss the point that repentance is something God does in people; therefore, the question in Romans 2:4 puts a limiting factor on the sentence in Romans 2:5.

Repentance is from God, and here is the explanation:

BIBLE CITATION: For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10).

The Apostle Paul did not write "sorrow that is according to your free will to choose God" - no he did NOT - the Apostle Paul ascribed to God that which is rightly God's - Godly sorrow leading to repentance to salvation!

Behold, more of Paul's writing:

BIBLE CITATION: Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).

Notice that rebuke of people that despise repentance being from God!

BIBLE CITATION: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)

See that God grants repentance.

BIBLE CITATION: with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25)

God grants repentance; therefore, repentance is not a work conjured up by man nor by man's "choice".

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

You are obviously trying to drown people with your overwhelming volume of cut and paste repeats.
You constantly parrot the same unbiblical drivel, despite the number of times your falsehoods have been refuted by myself and many other contributors.

Unlike your deeply offensive accusations against me and others here, I do not regard you as an unbeliever, just a deluded soul who is in deep spiritual bondage, to be pitied, not condemned.

Given that this is the same old same old, I'm not going to waste time answering it.
 
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