The Demise of Evolution

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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Bungle_Bear

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As @Warden_of_the_Storm points out, your own source demonstrates your claim to be wrong. The very first sentence says cattle were "native throughout Europe, Asia and North Africa".

Would you care to try any others, or shall we just agree that your claim is wrong and you will stop making it? I'd go as far as to say that none of today's domesticated animals came from Mesopotamia. Several are from around that area (goats from Iran, sheep from Anatolia, for instance) but none are specifically from Mesopotamia.
 
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ZNP

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Your own source kind of defeats you.
Not a single mention of cattle being domesticated in Mesopotamia, just "the earliest Neolithic farmers around 8000 years ago."
And using the Wikipedia page for cattle too:
"Around 10,500 years ago, cattle were domesticated from as few as 80 progenitors in central Anatolia, the Levant and Western Iran."
That's a BROAD range and a big time frame.
It is easy for any creature to move laterally East and West along the line of latitude. That was a key principle presented in Guns, Germs and Steel. Animals that were domesticated in China, Mesopotamia or Europe were easy to be transported from one region to another. That of course does not refer to traveling across an ocean like the Pacific or Atlantic.
 
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ZNP

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As @Warden_of_the_Storm points out, your own source demonstrates your claim to be wrong. The very first sentence says cattle were "native throughout Europe, Asia and North Africa".

Would you care to try any others, or shall we just agree that your claim is wrong and you will stop making it? I'd go as far as to say that none of today's domesticated animals came from Mesopotamia. Several are from around that area (goats from Iran, sheep from Anatolia, for instance) but none are specifically from Mesopotamia.
Mesopotamia is a bridge between Europe, N. Africa and Asia. The question is about all the species that went Extinct in N. America, S. America, Australia, etc. The species were there, they went extinct. As a result, when Europeans came to North, Central and S. America they had herds and domesticated animals which these people didn't have. One result of that was that we had immunity to many childhood diseases that they didn't have, another impact was that we had horses, they didn't. Horses were the "tanks" in human warfare until WW1, they had cattle which were also used to plow the land, native Americans didn't, etc.
 
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Ophiolite

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It is easy for any creature to move laterally East and West along the line of latitude. That was a key principle presented in Guns, Germs and Steel. Animals that were domesticated in China, Mesopotamia or Europe were easy to be transported from one region to another. That of course does not refer to traveling across an ocean like the Pacific or Atlantic.
In what way does this support your claim, the one that is in dispute? Just to remind you, here it is:

2. Second historical fact -- only 2 out of 18 domesticated animals were not from mesopotamia (guinea pigs and Llamas).
Your own "defence" leaves open where the amimals came from. So, will you now retract the claim or provided some solid, scientific, peer reviewed support?
 
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ZNP

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In what way does this support your claim, the one that is in dispute? Just to remind you, here it is:

Your own "defence" leaves open where the amimals came from. So, will you now retract the claim or provided some solid, scientific, peer reviewed support?
I had referred to Guns, Germs and Steel by memory without quoting chapter and verse. the basic fact that the new world did not have large ungulates is not in question. The fact that this lack was critical to the spread of European civilization is not in question. The fact that around 200+ species went extinct on all the different continents at the end of the last ice age is not in question. Nor is anyone disputing the fact that although some of these animals were domesticated in China or Europe it doesn't mean they couldn't have been present in Mesopotamia. So with all the key principles still 100% intact I do also admit that I was not precise in my post. My bad.
 
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Ophiolite

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I had referred to Guns, Germs and Steel by memory without quoting chapter and verse. the basic fact that the new world did not have large ungulates is not in question. The fact that this lack was critical to the spread of European civilization is not in question. The fact that around 200+ species went extinct on all the different continents at the end of the last ice age is not in question. Nor is anyone disputing the fact that although some of these animals were domesticated in China or Europe it doesn't mean they couldn't have been present in Mesopotamia. So with all the key principles still 100% intact I do also admit that I was not precise in my post. My bad.
Wow. I suppose I should graciously accept the fact you have conceded you were mistaken. That's difficult to do when you preface your withdrawal with a bunch of statements that, as far as I am aware, no one was disputing, and require multiple posts to get around to it. A simple "I made a mistake. Sorry about that" when first challenged would have been sufficient and earned you kudos. Please reflect on that.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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It is easy for any creature to move laterally East and West along the line of latitude. That was a key principle presented in Guns, Germs and Steel. Animals that were domesticated in China, Mesopotamia or Europe were easy to be transported from one region to another. That of course does not refer to traveling across an ocean like the Pacific or Atlantic.

I think you're willingly ignoring the point I was trying to clearly make. You have not presented any evidence that all animals in the Eurasian continent were originally domesticated in Mesopotamia. All you are doing is making an empty claim.
 
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Lazarus Long

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A simple "I made a mistake. Sorry about that" when first challenged would have been sufficient and earned you kudos. Please reflect on that.
But he can't do that and I can't tell you why without getting another warning.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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I had referred to Guns, Germs and Steel by memory without quoting chapter and verse. the basic fact that the new world did not have large ungulates is not in question. The fact that this lack was critical to the spread of European civilization is not in question. The fact that around 200+ species went extinct on all the different continents at the end of the last ice age is not in question. Nor is anyone disputing the fact that although some of these animals were domesticated in China or Europe it doesn't mean they couldn't have been present in Mesopotamia. So with all the key principles still 100% intact I do also admit that I was not precise in my post. My bad.
That sounds like an apology, but it isn't. You do not appear to be accepting the error of your claim, you appear to be changing your argument.

Do you accept that you are wrong to claim:
2. Second historical fact -- only 2 out of 18 domesticated animals were not from mesopotamia (guinea pigs and Llamas).
 
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Ophiolite

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Where did you get that idea? Bison are large ungulates indigenous to the New World.
Elk and moose and musk ox would, I think, also count as large. It depends what he means by large. Some might consider some deer to be large compared with peccaries, goats and sheep. There is a definite casualness in relation to accuracy in his posts that does his arguments no favours.
 
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roman2819

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Allegedly. there is no evidence of this

In the above statement, you were claiming that God did not speak to Abraham.

You may dismiss the Bible as a folklore but have you considered that it has withstand the strict scrutiny of many historians, archaeologist and literacy scholars? And although it is not a science book, it contains 'science verses' that turned out to be true, such as saying the earth is round in 600 BC before science say it. In line with secular historical records, the Bible background consists of Roman empire, Babylonia, Assyrian and ancient Egypt. It contains family trees dating Jesus back to David and further back to Abraham, and if you say records can be falsified, however, the Scripture pass the credibilty standard set by scholars and historians. The following are some strong evidence to show that the Bible is not just a cleverly fabricated book.

Accurate scientific statements

The Bible is not a book of science but when it made scientific statements on several occasions, it is surprisingly accurate. For instance, the Scriptures predicted that the earth was round even before science confirmed it. “He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers... [Isaiah 40:22]; the word “circle” implies that the earth is round. The prophet Isaiah said this about 700 BC , which is more than 2600 years ago. At that time, people believed that the earth was flat, or they would fall off the surface into space if it was round; back then, no one understood gravity, and sailors were afraid to reach the edge of the sea. In 340 BC, the famous Greek thinker Aristotle wrote a book, On the Heavens, where he gave reasons to support the theory that the earth was shaped like a sphere. Later, more evidence would confirm it. In the twentieth century, aerial photographs showed the earth to be round, but the Bible had said it well ahead of time.

The Bible also says the earth is suspended upon nothing. “He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing” [Job 26:7]. In those days, people had little or no clues about the universe. The Greeks believed that the earth was held in space by one of their gods, Atlas. Gradually, thinkers like Ptolemy, Copernicus and Galileo asserted that the earth, like the other planets, might be suspended upon nothing. Science would confirm this later, but not before the Bible had said it much earlier.

The Scriptures have been consistently correct on numerous occasions, and not just a couple of times. The Lord told Abraham that his descendants would be as many as the number of stars in the sky, if indeed he can count them [Genesis 15:5]. Early astronomers used to believe that they can count the stars in the sky but later, they realized that there are billions of them in the galaxies – beyond our ability to even give a close estimate.

When God created the earth, He said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear” [Genesis 1:9]. It means that at the beginning, the land mass was together. Today, there are geological evidences to substantiate this theory, as rocks and fossils of animals and plants on different continents show that they used to exist on the same land. Geologists or scientists believe that one supercontinent used to exist, which later broke up or became separated into the land masses that we see today.

“Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?” [Job 38:35]. When the Bible was written, the word “electricity” did not exist, obviously, and “lightning” referred to raw electric power from nature. Several millenniums later, scientists would be able to harness electricity for use in lighting, telephones and many other ways that we see today. Now, we are indeed using electric power to speak and send messages over telephones, radios, computers, satellites and communication equipment. In Job’s time, when lighting was provided by fire, no one would dream of using electricity, let alone run away from streaks of lightning. And the telephone was invented more than two millenniums later in 1876. Yet the Bible alluded to it well ahead of time.

Biblical Prophecies Fulfilled

The Scriptures contain prophesies about the future that have come true. Some prophecies are in Revelation. 2000 years ago when apostle John had a vision of war and battle scenes, he saw the kinds of weapons and technologies that would be used in the future. In his time, when soldiers fought with spears and swords, and cavalries rode horses and chariots, the apostle did not have the vocabularies to describe modern day arsenals that he never saw before. He could only compare them to locusts with wings, moving with noises like the thundering of horses and chariots rushing into battle. He also wrote that the heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur [Revelation 9: 7-19]. Today, we can see that the apostle was trying to describe modern war machines. The locusts with wings were helicopters and fighter jets. The horses with lion heads that threw fire and smoke were armored vehicles and tanks. John’s vision did materialize during the twentieth century – the Bible was 2000 years ahead of time.

Bible is supported by History

When historians, archaeologists and scientists conduct extensive research, they use cross references to determine the authenticity of the writings. Many biblical accounts have been found to be agreeable with history, such as the existence of ancient Israel, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Roman Empire. The existence of Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Artaxerxes, Herod and Pilate can be independently confirmed from other historical annals. Other archaeological discoveries substantiate accounts which are mentioned in the Bible, such as the invasion of ancient Israel by Babylonians and Persians. When Judea was under the control of the Roman Empire, the authorities regarded it as a difficult place to govern because the Jews resented foreign rule. In 66 AD, there was a revolt against the Roman authorities, who were forced to withdraw from Jerusalem because the fighting was fierce. The skirmishes continued until 70 AD when the Romans took back the city and crushed the resistance. Such events were found in historical records.

Some people assert that if the Bible is God’s Word, then there should be no mistakes at all. Should we apply such a standard towards the Scriptures? When scientists, mathematicians, scholars and historians conduct experiments for verification, they do not insist that the results must be totally free from mistakes. Some kinds of technical variations are accepted within certain margin of error. It does not mean that should absolutely be no glitches in God’s Word. Somewhere in the Old Testament, for example, a few numbers may not be absolutely accurate. When the manuscripts were copied by hand, a few variations could happen, such as the use of different words which have the same meaning or connotation. However, when experts scrutinized the Bible, such occurrences were acceptable. If there were too many flaws or mismatch with other historical findings, then it would have been exposed as a falsified piece of work. Instead, until today, it continues to endure the test of time.


Dead Sea Scrolls

In 1947, in the Mediterranean area, an Arab youth, Muhammad, accidentally stumbled upon the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were hidden in jars in a cave. The parchments, which were written mainly in Hebrew (with some parts in Aramaic), might have belonged to one of the Jewish religious sects or a community of people who lived during biblical times. It is possible that they could have hidden the scrolls from the Romans who came to crush the Jewish revolt circa 70 AD.

It was a phenomenal discovery, not only for Christians but also for historians, archaeologists, and scholars. The Dead Sea Scrolls were the manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures, without the Book of Esther. They were believed to have been written by the Jews who, after returning to Judah from exile (circa 400 BC), continued to keep records of their history, beliefs and traditions. This was an era commonly referred to as the Second Temple Period.

The greatest significance is that the Scrolls represent a close resemblance to the “original” Hebrew Old Testament (the Tanakh), which consists of the Pentateuch, History, Prophets and Poetry. At this point, it is appropriate to mention the existence of Jewish scribes, known as the Masoretes, from about 500 AD to 900 AD. They were entrusted with copying, editing and distribution of the Old Testament – a sacred and serious vocation that was held in high regards, which entailed the washing of hands before they started to write, for instance. They developed a system of counting the number of words in each book in order to ensure that every word was copied. Even if one error was spotted, the entire manuscript would be discarded by burying, in accordance with Jewish customs. They also introduced vowels into the Hebrew words, which only contained consonants originally.

When Masoretes Texts were compared to Dead Sea Scrolls, the very minute variations being found were confined to change of spellings over time or use of different synonyms in various manuscripts. This means that they were copied very meticulously and accurately, which was important, in view of the fact that they had been used as a basis for translations. The Dead Sea Scrolls helped to confirm that the Hebrew Scripture translations, which had been transmitted to us, had real roots in ancient historical sources that could be traced back to the Jews and ancient Israel. They also allowed academic scholars to compare various translations of the Bible, and gain understanding of certain ambiguous words, such as those with dual meanings. Other parchments discovered in the cave provided an insider’s view of the ancient Jewish society, their culture and beliefs, including the existence of religious sects and rabbi that were first formed during the Second Temple Period.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were believed to have been written 1000 years before the Ben Asher Codex, a Masoretic Text, which was the oldest known copy of the Old Testament before 1947. For the New Testament, manuscripts that were found included Codex Alexandrinus (dating back to 400 AD), Codex Sinaiticus (350 AD), and Codex Vaticanus. In the 1900s, more than a hundred manuscripts were found in Egypt.


The Roman Calendar

Could Abraham Lincoln or Napoleon be cleverly fabricated myths that somehow became accepted as the truths? Could historical records attribute the Great Wall of China to the work of a fictitious emperor? Surely these people were not just stories or folklores. Likewise, our calendar today, dated according to the birth of Jesus, indicates that He once lived on earth.

The Roman Empire persecuted Christians for about three hundred years. In 312 AD, however, the emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. Just before a decisive battle with his arch enemy, Maxentius (who was a co-ruler of the empire), Constantine had a dream, where God told him that under the cross, he would have victory, upon which he ordered that the sign of the cross be painted on his soldiers’ shields. His army prevailed, he believed, and passed a decree to stop all persecutions against the church, and also declared Christianity to be the official religion of the empire.

Later, the existing Roman calendar at that time was modified to be marked according to the year that Jesus was born, which became 1 A.D. Anno Domino means “the year of the Lord”. The years before His birth were marked BC (Before Christ).

There are more than these, but the abovementioned are some pointers.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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In the above statement, you were claiming that God did not speak to Abraham.

You may dismiss the Bible as a folklore but have you considered that it has withstand the strict scrutiny of many historians, archaeologist and literacy scholars? And although it is not a science book, it contains 'science verses' that turned out to be true, such as saying the earth is round in 600 BC before science say it. In line with secular historical records, the Bible background consists of Roman empire, Babylonia, Assyrian and ancient Egypt. It contains family trees dating Jesus back to David and further back to Abraham, and if you say records can be falsified, however, the Scripture pass the credibilty standard set by scholars and historians. The following are some strong evidence to show that the Bible is not just a cleverly fabricated book.

Accurate scientific statements

The Bible is not a book of science but when it made scientific statements on several occasions, it is surprisingly accurate. For instance, the Scriptures predicted that the earth was round even before science confirmed it. “He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers... [Isaiah 40:22]; the word “circle” implies that the earth is round. The prophet Isaiah said this about 700 BC , which is more than 2600 years ago. At that time, people believed that the earth was flat, or they would fall off the surface into space if it was round; back then, no one understood gravity, and sailors were afraid to reach the edge of the sea. In 340 BC, the famous Greek thinker Aristotle wrote a book, On the Heavens, where he gave reasons to support the theory that the earth was shaped like a sphere. Later, more evidence would confirm it. In the twentieth century, aerial photographs showed the earth to be round, but the Bible had said it well ahead of time.

The Bible also says the earth is suspended upon nothing. “He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing” [Job 26:7]. In those days, people had little or no clues about the universe. The Greeks believed that the earth was held in space by one of their gods, Atlas. Gradually, thinkers like Ptolemy, Copernicus and Galileo asserted that the earth, like the other planets, might be suspended upon nothing. Science would confirm this later, but not before the Bible had said it much earlier.

The Scriptures have been consistently correct on numerous occasions, and not just a couple of times. The Lord told Abraham that his descendants would be as many as the number of stars in the sky, if indeed he can count them [Genesis 15:5]. Early astronomers used to believe that they can count the stars in the sky but later, they realized that there are billions of them in the galaxies – beyond our ability to even give a close estimate.

When God created the earth, He said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear” [Genesis 1:9]. It means that at the beginning, the land mass was together. Today, there are geological evidences to substantiate this theory, as rocks and fossils of animals and plants on different continents show that they used to exist on the same land. Geologists or scientists believe that one supercontinent used to exist, which later broke up or became separated into the land masses that we see today.

“Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?” [Job 38:35]. When the Bible was written, the word “electricity” did not exist, obviously, and “lightning” referred to raw electric power from nature. Several millenniums later, scientists would be able to harness electricity for use in lighting, telephones and many other ways that we see today. Now, we are indeed using electric power to speak and send messages over telephones, radios, computers, satellites and communication equipment. In Job’s time, when lighting was provided by fire, no one would dream of using electricity, let alone run away from streaks of lightning. And the telephone was invented more than two millenniums later in 1876. Yet the Bible alluded to it well ahead of time.

Biblical Prophecies Fulfilled

The Scriptures contain prophesies about the future that have come true. Some prophecies are in Revelation. 2000 years ago when apostle John had a vision of war and battle scenes, he saw the kinds of weapons and technologies that would be used in the future. In his time, when soldiers fought with spears and swords, and cavalries rode horses and chariots, the apostle did not have the vocabularies to describe modern day arsenals that he never saw before. He could only compare them to locusts with wings, moving with noises like the thundering of horses and chariots rushing into battle. He also wrote that the heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur [Revelation 9: 7-19]. Today, we can see that the apostle was trying to describe modern war machines. The locusts with wings were helicopters and fighter jets. The horses with lion heads that threw fire and smoke were armored vehicles and tanks. John’s vision did materialize during the twentieth century – the Bible was 2000 years ahead of time.

Bible is supported by History

When historians, archaeologists and scientists conduct extensive research, they use cross references to determine the authenticity of the writings. Many biblical accounts have been found to be agreeable with history, such as the existence of ancient Israel, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Roman Empire. The existence of Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Artaxerxes, Herod and Pilate can be independently confirmed from other historical annals. Other archaeological discoveries substantiate accounts which are mentioned in the Bible, such as the invasion of ancient Israel by Babylonians and Persians. When Judea was under the control of the Roman Empire, the authorities regarded it as a difficult place to govern because the Jews resented foreign rule. In 66 AD, there was a revolt against the Roman authorities, who were forced to withdraw from Jerusalem because the fighting was fierce. The skirmishes continued until 70 AD when the Romans took back the city and crushed the resistance. Such events were found in historical records.

Some people assert that if the Bible is God’s Word, then there should be no mistakes at all. Should we apply such a standard towards the Scriptures? When scientists, mathematicians, scholars and historians conduct experiments for verification, they do not insist that the results must be totally free from mistakes. Some kinds of technical variations are accepted within certain margin of error. It does not mean that should absolutely be no glitches in God’s Word. Somewhere in the Old Testament, for example, a few numbers may not be absolutely accurate. When the manuscripts were copied by hand, a few variations could happen, such as the use of different words which have the same meaning or connotation. However, when experts scrutinized the Bible, such occurrences were acceptable. If there were too many flaws or mismatch with other historical findings, then it would have been exposed as a falsified piece of work. Instead, until today, it continues to endure the test of time.


Dead Sea Scrolls

In 1947, in the Mediterranean area, an Arab youth, Muhammad, accidentally stumbled upon the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were hidden in jars in a cave. The parchments, which were written mainly in Hebrew (with some parts in Aramaic), might have belonged to one of the Jewish religious sects or a community of people who lived during biblical times. It is possible that they could have hidden the scrolls from the Romans who came to crush the Jewish revolt circa 70 AD.

It was a phenomenal discovery, not only for Christians but also for historians, archaeologists, and scholars. The Dead Sea Scrolls were the manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures, without the Book of Esther. They were believed to have been written by the Jews who, after returning to Judah from exile (circa 400 BC), continued to keep records of their history, beliefs and traditions. This was an era commonly referred to as the Second Temple Period.

The greatest significance is that the Scrolls represent a close resemblance to the “original” Hebrew Old Testament (the Tanakh), which consists of the Pentateuch, History, Prophets and Poetry. At this point, it is appropriate to mention the existence of Jewish scribes, known as the Masoretes, from about 500 AD to 900 AD. They were entrusted with copying, editing and distribution of the Old Testament – a sacred and serious vocation that was held in high regards, which entailed the washing of hands before they started to write, for instance. They developed a system of counting the number of words in each book in order to ensure that every word was copied. Even if one error was spotted, the entire manuscript would be discarded by burying, in accordance with Jewish customs. They also introduced vowels into the Hebrew words, which only contained consonants originally.

When Masoretes Texts were compared to Dead Sea Scrolls, the very minute variations being found were confined to change of spellings over time or use of different synonyms in various manuscripts. This means that they were copied very meticulously and accurately, which was important, in view of the fact that they had been used as a basis for translations. The Dead Sea Scrolls helped to confirm that the Hebrew Scripture translations, which had been transmitted to us, had real roots in ancient historical sources that could be traced back to the Jews and ancient Israel. They also allowed academic scholars to compare various translations of the Bible, and gain understanding of certain ambiguous words, such as those with dual meanings. Other parchments discovered in the cave provided an insider’s view of the ancient Jewish society, their culture and beliefs, including the existence of religious sects and rabbi that were first formed during the Second Temple Period.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were believed to have been written 1000 years before the Ben Asher Codex, a Masoretic Text, which was the oldest known copy of the Old Testament before 1947. For the New Testament, manuscripts that were found included Codex Alexandrinus (dating back to 400 AD), Codex Sinaiticus (350 AD), and Codex Vaticanus. In the 1900s, more than a hundred manuscripts were found in Egypt.


The Roman Calendar

Could Abraham Lincoln or Napoleon be cleverly fabricated myths that somehow became accepted as the truths? Could historical records attribute the Great Wall of China to the work of a fictitious emperor? Surely these people were not just stories or folklores. Likewise, our calendar today, dated according to the birth of Jesus, indicates that He once lived on earth.

The Roman Empire persecuted Christians for about three hundred years. In 312 AD, however, the emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. Just before a decisive battle with his arch enemy, Maxentius (who was a co-ruler of the empire), Constantine had a dream, where God told him that under the cross, he would have victory, upon which he ordered that the sign of the cross be painted on his soldiers’ shields. His army prevailed, he believed, and passed a decree to stop all persecutions against the church, and also declared Christianity to be the official religion of the empire.

Later, the existing Roman calendar at that time was modified to be marked according to the year that Jesus was born, which became 1 A.D. Anno Domino means “the year of the Lord”. The years before His birth were marked BC (Before Christ).

There are more than these, but the abovementioned are some pointers.
A lot of wind and bloviation there, as well as some very obvious lack of thought. You obviously don't realise that:
1. In accepting that there are differences between earlier and later texts, you support the idea that claims in the bible have changed over time to fit in with current ideas i.e. "the message" has changed over time.
2. If you accept scholarly historicity, then Genesis is a relative latecomer to the party and was written quite a while after other OT books, so cannot have been written by Moses or anyone even vaguely close to the event.
3. Shoehorning modern interpretations of passages into old texts is poor scholarship. So claiming that "a circle" implies a globe, when a perfectly good word for a sphere existed at the time of writing, is laughable.

You should take your apologetics to the appropriate forum. They hold no weight here.
 
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Speedwell

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In the above statement, you were claiming that God did not speak to Abraham.

You may dismiss the Bible as a folklore but have you considered that it has withstand the strict scrutiny of many historians, archaeologist and literacy scholars? And although it is not a science book, it contains 'science verses' that turned out to be true, such as saying the earth is round in 600 BC before science say it. In line with secular historical records, the Bible background consists of Roman empire, Babylonia, Assyrian and ancient Egypt. It contains family trees dating Jesus back to David and further back to Abraham, and if you say records can be falsified, however, the Scripture pass the credibilty standard set by scholars and historians. The following are some strong evidence to show that the Bible is not just a cleverly fabricated book.

Accurate scientific statements

The Bible is not a book of science but when it made scientific statements on several occasions, it is surprisingly accurate. For instance, the Scriptures predicted that the earth was round even before science confirmed it. “He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers... [Isaiah 40:22]; the word “circle” implies that the earth is round. The prophet Isaiah said this about 700 BC , which is more than 2600 years ago. At that time, people believed that the earth was flat, or they would fall off the surface into space if it was round; back then, no one understood gravity, and sailors were afraid to reach the edge of the sea. In 340 BC, the famous Greek thinker Aristotle wrote a book, On the Heavens, where he gave reasons to support the theory that the earth was shaped like a sphere. Later, more evidence would confirm it. In the twentieth century, aerial photographs showed the earth to be round, but the Bible had said it well ahead of time.

The Bible also says the earth is suspended upon nothing. “He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing” [Job 26:7]. In those days, people had little or no clues about the universe. The Greeks believed that the earth was held in space by one of their gods, Atlas. Gradually, thinkers like Ptolemy, Copernicus and Galileo asserted that the earth, like the other planets, might be suspended upon nothing. Science would confirm this later, but not before the Bible had said it much earlier.

The Scriptures have been consistently correct on numerous occasions, and not just a couple of times. The Lord told Abraham that his descendants would be as many as the number of stars in the sky, if indeed he can count them [Genesis 15:5]. Early astronomers used to believe that they can count the stars in the sky but later, they realized that there are billions of them in the galaxies – beyond our ability to even give a close estimate.

When God created the earth, He said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear” [Genesis 1:9]. It means that at the beginning, the land mass was together. Today, there are geological evidences to substantiate this theory, as rocks and fossils of animals and plants on different continents show that they used to exist on the same land. Geologists or scientists believe that one supercontinent used to exist, which later broke up or became separated into the land masses that we see today.

“Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?” [Job 38:35]. When the Bible was written, the word “electricity” did not exist, obviously, and “lightning” referred to raw electric power from nature. Several millenniums later, scientists would be able to harness electricity for use in lighting, telephones and many other ways that we see today. Now, we are indeed using electric power to speak and send messages over telephones, radios, computers, satellites and communication equipment. In Job’s time, when lighting was provided by fire, no one would dream of using electricity, let alone run away from streaks of lightning. And the telephone was invented more than two millenniums later in 1876. Yet the Bible alluded to it well ahead of time.

Biblical Prophecies Fulfilled

The Scriptures contain prophesies about the future that have come true. Some prophecies are in Revelation. 2000 years ago when apostle John had a vision of war and battle scenes, he saw the kinds of weapons and technologies that would be used in the future. In his time, when soldiers fought with spears and swords, and cavalries rode horses and chariots, the apostle did not have the vocabularies to describe modern day arsenals that he never saw before. He could only compare them to locusts with wings, moving with noises like the thundering of horses and chariots rushing into battle. He also wrote that the heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur [Revelation 9: 7-19]. Today, we can see that the apostle was trying to describe modern war machines. The locusts with wings were helicopters and fighter jets. The horses with lion heads that threw fire and smoke were armored vehicles and tanks. John’s vision did materialize during the twentieth century – the Bible was 2000 years ahead of time.

Bible is supported by History

When historians, archaeologists and scientists conduct extensive research, they use cross references to determine the authenticity of the writings. Many biblical accounts have been found to be agreeable with history, such as the existence of ancient Israel, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Roman Empire. The existence of Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Artaxerxes, Herod and Pilate can be independently confirmed from other historical annals. Other archaeological discoveries substantiate accounts which are mentioned in the Bible, such as the invasion of ancient Israel by Babylonians and Persians. When Judea was under the control of the Roman Empire, the authorities regarded it as a difficult place to govern because the Jews resented foreign rule. In 66 AD, there was a revolt against the Roman authorities, who were forced to withdraw from Jerusalem because the fighting was fierce. The skirmishes continued until 70 AD when the Romans took back the city and crushed the resistance. Such events were found in historical records.

Some people assert that if the Bible is God’s Word, then there should be no mistakes at all. Should we apply such a standard towards the Scriptures? When scientists, mathematicians, scholars and historians conduct experiments for verification, they do not insist that the results must be totally free from mistakes. Some kinds of technical variations are accepted within certain margin of error. It does not mean that should absolutely be no glitches in God’s Word. Somewhere in the Old Testament, for example, a few numbers may not be absolutely accurate. When the manuscripts were copied by hand, a few variations could happen, such as the use of different words which have the same meaning or connotation. However, when experts scrutinized the Bible, such occurrences were acceptable. If there were too many flaws or mismatch with other historical findings, then it would have been exposed as a falsified piece of work. Instead, until today, it continues to endure the test of time.


Dead Sea Scrolls

In 1947, in the Mediterranean area, an Arab youth, Muhammad, accidentally stumbled upon the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were hidden in jars in a cave. The parchments, which were written mainly in Hebrew (with some parts in Aramaic), might have belonged to one of the Jewish religious sects or a community of people who lived during biblical times. It is possible that they could have hidden the scrolls from the Romans who came to crush the Jewish revolt circa 70 AD.

It was a phenomenal discovery, not only for Christians but also for historians, archaeologists, and scholars. The Dead Sea Scrolls were the manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures, without the Book of Esther. They were believed to have been written by the Jews who, after returning to Judah from exile (circa 400 BC), continued to keep records of their history, beliefs and traditions. This was an era commonly referred to as the Second Temple Period.

The greatest significance is that the Scrolls represent a close resemblance to the “original” Hebrew Old Testament (the Tanakh), which consists of the Pentateuch, History, Prophets and Poetry. At this point, it is appropriate to mention the existence of Jewish scribes, known as the Masoretes, from about 500 AD to 900 AD. They were entrusted with copying, editing and distribution of the Old Testament – a sacred and serious vocation that was held in high regards, which entailed the washing of hands before they started to write, for instance. They developed a system of counting the number of words in each book in order to ensure that every word was copied. Even if one error was spotted, the entire manuscript would be discarded by burying, in accordance with Jewish customs. They also introduced vowels into the Hebrew words, which only contained consonants originally.

When Masoretes Texts were compared to Dead Sea Scrolls, the very minute variations being found were confined to change of spellings over time or use of different synonyms in various manuscripts. This means that they were copied very meticulously and accurately, which was important, in view of the fact that they had been used as a basis for translations. The Dead Sea Scrolls helped to confirm that the Hebrew Scripture translations, which had been transmitted to us, had real roots in ancient historical sources that could be traced back to the Jews and ancient Israel. They also allowed academic scholars to compare various translations of the Bible, and gain understanding of certain ambiguous words, such as those with dual meanings. Other parchments discovered in the cave provided an insider’s view of the ancient Jewish society, their culture and beliefs, including the existence of religious sects and rabbi that were first formed during the Second Temple Period.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were believed to have been written 1000 years before the Ben Asher Codex, a Masoretic Text, which was the oldest known copy of the Old Testament before 1947. For the New Testament, manuscripts that were found included Codex Alexandrinus (dating back to 400 AD), Codex Sinaiticus (350 AD), and Codex Vaticanus. In the 1900s, more than a hundred manuscripts were found in Egypt.


The Roman Calendar

Could Abraham Lincoln or Napoleon be cleverly fabricated myths that somehow became accepted as the truths? Could historical records attribute the Great Wall of China to the work of a fictitious emperor? Surely these people were not just stories or folklores. Likewise, our calendar today, dated according to the birth of Jesus, indicates that He once lived on earth.

The Roman Empire persecuted Christians for about three hundred years. In 312 AD, however, the emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. Just before a decisive battle with his arch enemy, Maxentius (who was a co-ruler of the empire), Constantine had a dream, where God told him that under the cross, he would have victory, upon which he ordered that the sign of the cross be painted on his soldiers’ shields. His army prevailed, he believed, and passed a decree to stop all persecutions against the church, and also declared Christianity to be the official religion of the empire.

Later, the existing Roman calendar at that time was modified to be marked according to the year that Jesus was born, which became 1 A.D. Anno Domino means “the year of the Lord”. The years before His birth were marked BC (Before Christ).

There are more than these, but the abovementioned are some pointers.
That's way too much for one post. Those "arguments" have all been debunked in detail in this forum at one time or another. Pick your favorite and we'll show you. And please, cut out the straw-man crap. Nobody thinks the Bible is "just folklore" or a "cleverly fabricated book."
 
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roman2819

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A lot of wind and bloviation there, as well as some very obvious lack of thought. You obviously don't realise that:
1. In accepting that there are differences between earlier and later texts, you support the idea that claims in the bible have changed over time to fit in with current ideas i.e. "the message" has changed over time.
2. If you accept scholarly historicity, then Genesis is a relative latecomer to the party and was written quite a while after other OT books, so cannot have been written by Moses or anyone even vaguely close to the event.
3. Shoehorning modern interpretations of passages into old texts is poor scholarship. So claiming that "a circle" implies a globe, when a perfectly good word for a sphere existed at the time of writing, is laughable.

You should take your apologetics to the appropriate forum. They hold no weight here.

on 3rd point you made, you are saying that the Bible should have used the word sphere instead ad of circle. I don't think we can insist how people used words that way we want. As well, some Bible translations today say circle, some say sphere, but both words imply the earth is round, in contrast to how people back then thought the earth was flat

Your Point 1... Interpreting old text in modern term is not new or wrong -- if we keep the original context of old text Then what do u think the old original text was saying by the word sphere or circle? Point 2 was related to point 1 so need to clarify point 1..
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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on 3rd point you made, you are saying that the Bible should have used the word sphere instead ad of circle. I don't think we can insist how people used words that way we want. As well, some Bible translations today say circle, some say sphere, but both words imply the earth is round, in contrast to how people back then thought the earth was flat

Your Point 1... I dont understand why you see it that way. Then what do u think the old original text was saying by the word sphere or circle? Point 2 was related to point 1.

A circle is two-dimensional. It's flat.
A globe is three-dimensional. It's not flat.
 
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pitabread

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Today, we can see that the apostle was trying to describe modern war machines. The locusts with wings were helicopters and fighter jets. The horses with lion heads that threw fire and smoke were armored vehicles and tanks. John’s vision did materialize during the twentieth century – the Bible was 2000 years ahead of time.

This isn't prophecy. This is just arbitrary reinterpretation and post-hoc rationalization.

This is also precisely why claims about so-called Bible "prophecies" are so unimpressive.

If the Bible actually described real modern war machines with exacting detail and could be demonstrated to have done so a 1000+ years before the fact, then you'd have something worth talking about. But arbitrarily re-interpreting references to locusts or chariots to refer to modern war machines? Not so much.
 
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