Epistemic Virtues: Is it better to know, or to seek to know?

public hermit

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Memorizing a bit of information you heard on the television is not knowledge properly speaking.

He does seem to be using the term "knowledge" rather loosely. A bit disappointing for a philosophy prof, but maybe he thinks it's better suited for popular consumption? I agree that simply hearing some fact is not knowledge. But, isn't that partly his point? Even if I have a fact, that also happens to be true, the way that I acquired it makes a difference.

The whole idea that truth and knowledge are ends in themselves doesn't make much sense

Is Robinson treating truth and knowledge as ends in themselves? Honestly, I thought he was saying the pursuit is more important, which I am not sure I agree with either? As @variant suggested, knowing something is of more value than seeking to know that same thing.
 
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I think almost everyone assumes that the five senses we have, generally, but not always, give us valid information about the physical world.

I think most everyone assumes they do, even when they don't always give accurate representations. Are those the kinds of assumptions you were referring to, qualia and such?
 
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zippy2006

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He does seem to be using the term "knowledge" rather loosely. A bit disappointing for a philosophy prof, but maybe he thinks it's better suited for popular consumption?

I think it is geared towards popular consumption but I don't think his conclusion about seeking being more important than possessing is valid.

I agree that simply hearing some fact is not knowledge. But, isn't that partly his point? Even if I have a fact, that also happens to be true, the way that I acquired it makes a difference.

I'm willing to hear this argument out, but the way he positions knowledge strikes me as the problem. He thinks that the end product is the same (i.e. knowledge/fish). Since that end product is the same his only option for differentiation is to look at acquisition. I don't think he makes any effort to differentiate qualities of knowledge. I would solve his puzzles by pointing out that the two receive different quality fish.

The entire logic of the "teach a man to fish" idea fixes the end product of fish as a static variable and focuses on the ability to procure that end product.

Is Robinson treating truth and knowledge as ends in themselves?

No, I don't think so. I was just pointing out that his approach won't be able to make sense of the long philosophical tradition that thinks so.

What do you think about the OP? I am only slicing it according to a very narrow angle. There are lots of other things that could be said. For instance, he is clearly right that moral superiority on the basis of knowledge or information is often unjustified in our information age.
 
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public hermit

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He thinks that the end product is the same (i.e. knowledge/fish). Since that end product is the same his only option for differentiation is to look at acquisition. I don't think he makes any effort to differentiate qualities of knowledge.

I see. Yes, I agree. If the end product is the same, i.e. generic "knowledge," his only option is to differentiate the means. Good point.

What do you think about the OP?

Honestly, the only thing that attracted me to the article was his mention of the epistemic virtues. His treatment of knowledge is anemic. But, I think we live in a culture where productive discourse is not always happening and that is a problem. Any opportunity to put out there a better way, which I think the epistemic virtues represent, then I'm all for it.
 
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Ophiolite

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Those 'epistemic virtues' listed are certainly ones I respect, and if I encounter someone using them, then I know it matters to try to bring forward my best open questions, because the person might actually listen to what I'm saying, lol. :) They might be able to help or provoke something on that edge of understanding.
You have introduced an interesting topic. I found several of the points made to be bizarre. Interesting, probably relevant to some (many?), but to me, bizarre. I hope these following thoughts may provide you with the sort of insights into the thinking of others you were interested in.

Later in the week, when the two of you meet for a drink and your friend is ignorant of recent emission figures, what kind of intellectual or moral superiority is really justified on your part?
I read the earlier part of this paragraph with interest, curious as to where it was heading and it wound up in Oz, or down the Rabbit Hole, certainly somewhere I am a stranger to. Why - in my mind I'm exuding several expletives - would one feel a intellectual or moral superiority for possessing this specific piece of knowledge, in that context? It makes no sense to me.

Now, I take pride in having a wide range of interests and the knowledge that goes with them. I enjoy pub quizes and used to play Trivial Pursuit. I was enchanted by a conversation with my thirty -something daughter: I wondered why she asked me so many questions when she could just Google them. "It's quicker. You know most of the answers and I don't have to type." But that's the joy of knowledge - sharing it,exploring it with others. Well, half the joy. The other half is the personal experience of it. As we acquire knowledge it is akin to climbing a mountain. The higher we get, the more spectacular the view.

Another analogy I have for knowledge that I've often used in technical training classes for engineers is that knowledge is like a balloon. What we know is represented by the content of tbe balloon. What we don't know is everything out side the balloon. The skin of the balloon itself represents our ignorance, the place where our knowledge comes hard up against what we don't know. When our knowledge is limited the balloon is small and our perception is that our ignorance is limited. As we increase our knowledge and the balloon expands our perceived ignorance grows. I therefore make it my aim to become slightly more ignorant every day. I find it a useful way of looking at knowledge and its acquisition, since it focuses at least as much on what we don't know as what we know.

Robinson quote"At the opposite end of the scale, some are effectively handed the truth about some matter as if it were a mint on their pillow, pleasantly materializing and not a big deal. Pride in this mere knowledge of the truth ignores the way in which some people come to possess it without any care or effort, and the way that others strive relentlessly against the odds for it and still miss out."
This makes very little sense to me. The acquisition of knowledge is made easier for the son of a millionaire sent to Eton than for the son of a peasant in East Africa who must walk three miles to school each day and do hard physical work on the family smallholding when he returns. But it still requires hard work to absorb and understand the knowledge. I have yet to meet anyone who found this easy. (Perhaps I've never looked. Anyone out there found learning things to be a doddle?)

1. Intellectual humility = a willingness to be wrong
2. Intellectual courage = to pursue truths that make us uncomfortable
3. Open mindedness = to contemplate all side of an argument, limiting preconceptions
4. Curiosity = to be continually seeking
The most important of these is curiosity, since it demands that the other three exist.
As an aside, a willingness to be wrong is something to be proud of, not an example of humility. If one is not prepared to be wrong it means one is static, indolent, unchanging, in a rut. That would be embarrassing, so why would one need to be humble to eschew it?

Robinson thinks the one who inhabits these epistemic virtues has a better relationship to the truth than the one who merely has knowledge given to them.
This seems to me a needless statement of the blindingly obvious, since someone who has knowledge given to them will not understand it or retain it.


What do you think of virtue in terms of how people use what they know in relation to others? CF is such an interesting space to observe how people handle what they "know" and how they treat others who disagree. Sometimes (too many times?), we see "knowledge" wielded like a sledge-hammer instead of a gift worth pursuing. I am inclined to think that those who inhabit the above epistemic virtues will approach conversations differently than those who simply "know."
When I see members unwilling to admit they could be wrong, avoiding ideas they find uncomfortable -sometimes by outright denial, or approaching a subject with a closed mind then I plead guilty to wielding my knowledge like sledge-hammer. I've reflected on the justice and the morality of that approach as I wrote this post and reached the conclusion I may just get a bigger hammer. :)
 
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public hermit

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Why - in my mind I'm exuding several expletives - would one feel a intellectual or moral superiority for possessing this specific piece of knowledge, in that context? It makes no sense to me.

^_^

But that's the joy of knowledge - sharing it,exploring it with others. Well, half the joy. The other half is the personal experience of it. As we acquire knowledge it is akin to climbing a mountain. The higher we get, the more spectacular the view.

Nice. So, unlike what I think Robinson is implying, some knowledge is just settled and you can enjoy the accomplishment. Intellectual humility is for the...untrained, maybe?

Another analogy I have for knowledge that I've often used in technical training classes for engineers is that knowledge is like a balloon. What we know is represented by the content of tbe balloon. What we don't know is everything out side the balloon. The skin of the balloon itself represents our ignorance, the place where our knowledge comes hard up against what we don't know. When our knowledge is limited the balloon is small and our perception is that our ignorance is limited. As we increase our knowledge and the balloon expands our perceived ignorance grows. I therefore make it my aim to become slightly more ignorant every day. I find it a useful way of looking at knowledge and its acquisition, since it focuses at least as much on what we don't know as what we know.

Fantastic analogy. I certainly agree with your conclusion: the acquisition of knowledge focuses as much on what we don't know as what we know.

This seems to me a needless statement of the blindingly obvious, since someone who has knowledge given to them will not understand it or retain it.

How will they know that unless someone takes the time to explain it? I think part of his point is that those who truly know, i.e. have the right attitude towards knowledge acquisition, will be more patient with those who are still searching, or who don't know how to search. At least, when I take his so-called "epistemic virtues" together it seems the one who inhabits them will be gracious even with those whose knowledge is given to them like a "mint on a pillow," as he puts it.

When I see members unwilling to admit they could be wrong, avoiding ideas they find uncomfortable -sometimes by outright denial, or approaching a subject with a closed mind then I plead guilty to wielding my knowledge like sledge-hammer. I've reflected on the justice and the morality of that approach as I wrote this post and reached the conclusion I may just get a bigger hammer. :)

Hahaha ^_^ I get it, but man it has to start somewhere, and who better with than you? No doubt, some folks are incorrigible. They think they know, and hell nor high water will give them a clue as to their own ignorance. But, those who have taken the effort to know, and even know what they don't know, are the only ones who can help. Whatever...I absolutely loved and enjoyed your comments. Cheers! :beercheers:
 
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Halbhh

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The most important of these is curiosity, since it demands that the other three exist.
I was largely finding the statements reasonable until this one.

It's quite easy and commonplace for individuals to be curious about things that are only comfortable, and that don't at all challenge any of their preferred ideas/theories.

They simply are curious to hear filtered evidence that aligns to the preferred (and usually inadequate) theory.
 
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Josheb

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I think I see what you mean. Instead of "Is better to know or to seek to know?" I could be that one both knows and seeks to know. Is that what you mean?
Yes, and I would place a disposition of seeking in there to precede knowing so the seeking and knowing beget one another. You can lead a horse to water......
So, what do you think of his suggested epistemic virtues? Are they helpful, not so helpful, complete nonsense? Should Jonny Robinson just keep his day job?
I find many problems in the commentary. For one, how is "intellectual superiority" a thing? And why is it relevant? Why conflate with moral superiority? What's his metric? How's going to measure that against whatever nameless knowledge and desire his friend garnered while at her second job? How much did that knowledge of climate change help his arrogance overseeing the prospect of comparative knowledge between two people with differing experiences?

So right from the beginning I'm inclined to hand him the toilet paper. He'll need it to clean off his face once he removes his head from his.... well, you get the picture.

Then maybe he can go back to his day job. Maybe.

Then there's the question of fruitless pursuit. By juxtaposing one against the other the possibility of endless but fruitless pursuit exists. U doubt Robinson would say endless pursuit absent any attainment is a good thng. The irony is that very condition might be what the reader observes in the Robinson's argument. This is all the more so if what he supposedly learned about climate change is incorrect ;). If it's wrong then he's worse off, not better off, than when he began in the state of not-knowing.

Besides, he starts off with a click of the tv remote half-heartedly, notwith any intentional pursuit. He's undermined his own argument, again right from the outset. Then... after asserting "pursuit" as superior he states, "knowledge of the truth might very well have nothing to do with our own efforts or character." Presumably pursuit takes effort. Presumably the kind and degree of pursuit for which he's arguing is a matter of character to some degree.

Give him another roll of tp.

Instead of watching documentaries on climate change perhaps he should develop an interest in the local public television course on the fundamentals of logic.

A portion of the article and therein the word "inquiry" is misspelled. Just saying.

"Ends of the scale" are asserted. Ordinary people understand that as an argument of extremes. Reductio ad absurdum is always and everywhere fallacious. It begs an inquiry about what he knows or doesn't know about theses ends of the scales and certain communities of which he speaks.They certainly don't apply to the social and religious communities to which I belong and my kids were home schooled :D.


I can affirm and commend the four "virtues" but I wonder what he means by truths plural. I do hope it is not being suggested there are multiple truths to certain givens. That would undermine his argument. Again.

Put on some gloves and help him get his head of there it seems to be wedged in pretty tight this time.




As to the questions asked at the end of the op, wel, each one might be worthy of its own op and dedicated discussion. Underneath it all is the nature of "knowing" because history tells us knowledge of many things does not endure. much in the human knowledge base changes every 100-150 years. Spontaneous generation was once the known truth and then that schmuck Pasteur discovered micro-organisms. We used to think Newtonian physics was the be all and end all and then those guys Einstein and Planck came along. Cretins. The atom used to be the smallest particle and we were absolutely sure that was known truth until a bunch of guys smashed open one of them and a whole bunch of other stuff fell out.

Knowledge begets pursuit.

Pursuit begets knowledge.

Endlessly.

No false dichotomies needed.


You ask Christians what they think. I wonder if Robinson would consider revelation a valid and veracious source of knowledge.... and the pursuit thereof :oops:.
 
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Ophiolite

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I was largely finding the until this statements reasonable until this one.

It's quite easy and commonplace for individuals to be curious about things that are only comfortable, and that don't at all challenge any of their preferred ideas/theories.

They simply are curious to hear filtered evidence that aligns to the preferred (and usually inadequate) theory.
I understand what you are saying. In my mind that is not true curiosity.

Dictionaries have the usual spectrum of definitions, but "the desire to know" seems common. This desire is, in the definitions, unqualified. It is a universal desire, to know about everything. When it is qualified it is a desire to know about the interests of others, or about unusual and extraordinary things. That doesn't match with the restricted curiosity you speak of. Perhaps I am cherry-picking definitions. Please let me know if you think I am.

The selective curiosity you describe runs counter to the first three of Robinson's attitudes. I find it difficult to see it as curiosity. I'm curious to know how you arrive at your position. :)
 
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Josheb

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Why - in my mind I'm exuding several expletives - would one feel a intellectual or moral superiority for possessing this specific piece of knowledge, in that context?
Indeed. For all the good his (limited, and possibly flawed) knowledge on climate change might have done him it did not make him a better human being if he thinks himself superior for it.
 
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public hermit

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I find many problems in the commentary.

You seem to be joining a chorus on this account. ;)

It begs an inquiry about what he knows or doesn't know about theses ends of the scales and certain communities of which he speaks.They certainly don't apply to the social and religious communities to which I belong and my kids were home schooled :D.

I wondered if anyone would pick up on that.

I can affirm and commend the four "virtues"

The virtues were the main thing that attracted me to the article, but the critique of the rest of his article is much more fun to read at this point. :)

You ask Christians what they think. I wonder if Robinson would consider revelation a valid and veracious source of knowledge.... and the pursuit thereof :oops:.

I doubt it. Man, I really appreciate your comments. Ask no quarter, give no quarter. ^_^
 
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Halbhh

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I understand what you are saying. In my mind that is not true curiosity.

Dictionaries have the usual spectrum of definitions, but "the desire to know" seems common. This desire is, in the definitions, unqualified. It is a universal desire, to know about everything. When it is qualified it is a desire to know about the interests of others, or about unusual and extraordinary things. That doesn't match with the restricted curiosity you speak of. Perhaps I am cherry-picking definitions. Please let me know if you think I am.

The selective curiosity you describe runs counter to the first three of Robinson's attitudes. I find it difficult to see it as curiosity. I'm curious to know how you arrive at your position. :)
Which one?
 
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Ophiolite

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Which one?
The one where you express a different understanding of how curiosity may be expressed, as in "It's quite easy and commonplace for individuals to be curious about things that are only comfortable, and that don't at all challenge any of their preferred ideas/theories. They simply are curious to hear filtered evidence that aligns to the preferred (and usually inadequate) theory."

I think I've explained why I think that doesn't work and wanted to hear your justification for it.
 
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Halbhh

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The one where you express a different understanding of how curiosity may be expressed, as in "It's quite easy and commonplace for individuals to be curious about things that are only comfortable, and that don't at all challenge any of their preferred ideas/theories. They simply are curious to hear filtered evidence that aligns to the preferred (and usually inadequate) theory."

I think I've explained why I think that doesn't work and wanted to hear your justification for it.
I'm saying we should not do that selective filtering, but that everyone tends to naturally.

I theorize it's actually the innate, efficient, quick decision making of the human brain natural selection has favored, in order to quickly assess situations when seconds can mean life or death in nature.

To filter out contrary information. Usually.

In many areas (not all; many are willing to learn new things in some area(s)).

It's what I think each person should ideally learn to consciously be aware is the normal way their human brain functions, and consciously work against it at times, to better find better understandings.

Where most people don't.

Most seek to confirm their theories.

Ideally, one should seek to disprove one's theories.

Basically I'm advocating we all be Popperian scientists a lot more.

Instead of just doing this in some areas, we should attempt to do it everywhere, even though it's an extra effort that requires conscious focus.
 
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zippy2006

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Honestly, the only thing that attracted me to the article was his mention of the epistemic virtues. His treatment of knowledge is anemic. But, I think we live in a culture where productive discourse is not always happening and that is a problem. Any opportunity to put out there a better way, which I think the epistemic virtues represent, then I'm all for it.

Yeah, I thought the article was interesting and helpful, and like you say, I think he makes some good points too.
 
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The most important of these is curiosity, since it demands that the other three exist.
As an aside, a willingness to be wrong is something to be proud of, not an example of humility. If one is not prepared to be wrong it means one is static, indolent, unchanging, in a rut. That would be embarrassing, so why would one need to be humble to eschew it?

on this point- Remember the author is trying to define Intellectual Humility, perhaps as opposed to Intellectual Arrogance. I believe by saying it is a willingness to be wrong, the author is saying that one can not be so arrogant, self assured and unmovable as to be unwilling to consider the possibility that one could be wrong and stubbornly insist that one is right in the face of evidence to the contrary. I believe you understand willingness to be wrong as willing to take the risk of being wrong to get to the truth rather than the author's idea of not insisting upon being right.
 
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Ophiolite

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on this point- Remember the author is trying to define Intellectual Humility, perhaps as opposed to Intellectual Arrogance I believe by saying it is a willingness to be wrong, the author is saying that one can not be so arrogant, self assured and unmovable as to be unwilling to consider the possibility that one could be wrong and stubbornly insist that one is right in the face of evidence to the contrary. I believe you understand willingness to be wrong as willing to take the risk of being wrong to get to the truth rather than the author's idea of not insisting upon being right.
Ah, yes. I see what you mean. I was certainly interpreting it the way you suspected and I ignored/failed to grasp the author's intent. Thanks for the insight.
 
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durangodawood

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How does Jonny Robinson know that? ;)

Jonny Robinson is arguing a false dichotomy.
Its not a dichotomy (one must be false). Its a ranking.

I agree with his ranking.
 
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durangodawood

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...Knowledge is always going to be of more value than seeking that same knowledge....
Yes, but an honest seeking attitude toward knowledge that you carry thought life is typically more valuable than any unit of actual knowledge.

Exceptions are things like: knowing how to swim when you fall in the lake.
 
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Ah, yes. I see what you mean. I was certainly interpreting it the way you suspected and I ignored/failed to grasp the author's intent. Thanks for the insight.

See, this response is just further confirmation of something I have already noticed about you. When I read your initial post, I read every bit of it with a grain of salt, especially the part about using a bigger hammer. I have seen how you interact with others on these threads, and it seems pretty clear to me that you already inhabit Robinson's epistemic virtues. So, you're not fooling me. ;)
 
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