Daniel's 70th week

summerville

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Luke 21:20 tells us what is being made desolate.

Yeah, Jerusalem was surrounded by enemies. Foreign troop from the Roman Empire and Roman troops that has been garrisoned in Syria.

Before Jesus was born, before the Romans .. before Pompey set siege to Jerusalem in 63 BC they fought the Seleucid Greeks.
 
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jgr

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Yeah, Jerusalem was surrounded by enemies. Foreign troop from the Roman Empire and Roman troops that has been garrisoned in Syria.

Before Jesus was born, before the Romans .. before Pompey set siege to Jerusalem in 63 BC they fought the Seleucid Greeks.

Luke 21:20 refers to 70 AD.
 
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summerville

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What I'm saying is, AE4 is nowhere to be found in Daniel 9:25-27, because the beginning of the 70 weeks have to start after Jerusalem has already been destroyed. 483 years earlier, meaning the first 69 weeks, from the time of 168 BC would place the beginning of the 70 weeks during a time when Jerusalem hasn't even been destroyed yet, thus making nonsense out of verse 25 in Daniel 9 since that verse is focusing on rebuilding a city that had previously been destroyed.

You aren't paying attention.. This isn't hard. After the first temple was destroyed the Jews returned from Babylon and rebuilt it.. Much later Herod, a client king of Rome, expanded and improved the Temple Mount.
 
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jgr

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Maybe.. Some scholars think Gospel of Luke was written before Acts and before 62 AD.

Some think it was written (from Antioch) as late as 80-130 AD.

Gospel of Luke

Luke 21:21 refers to 70 AD.

So then does Luke 21:20.
 
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DavidPT

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You aren't paying attention.. This isn't hard. After the first temple was destroyed the Jews returned from Babylon and rebuilt it.. Much later Herod, a client king of Rome, expanded and improved the Temple Mount.


Unless my math is wrong, which I guess is possible, it is mathematically impossible to start at 168 BC, which is apparently meaning in the 70th week per your interpretation, then go back 69 weeks from there, the beginning of the 70 weeks, then arrive at a time when Jerusalem has already been destroyed.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


What I have underlined is apparently meaning when the 70 weeks initially begin. Obviously Jerusalem wouldn't need to be restored and built unless it was already destroyed first. Therefore, the 70 weeks can't initially begin until some time after 607 BC to 587 BC, depending on which of these 2 dates it was actually destroyed.

650 BC or so, meaning roughly 69 weeks earlier from 168 BC, is during a time when Jerusalem hasn't even been destroyed yet. Therefore it can't fit what I have underlined in verse 25 above. So unless my math is wrong, I would think this alone totally debunks that AE4 is meant in Daniel 9:25-27 somewhere.
 
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summerville

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Unless my math is wrong, which I guess is possible, it is mathematically impossible to start at 168 BC, which is apparently meaning in the 70th week per your interpretation, then go back 69 weeks from there, the beginning of the 70 weeks, then arrive at a time when Jerusalem has already been destroyed.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


What I have underlined is apparently meaning when the 70 weeks initially begin. Obviously Jerusalem wouldn't need to be restored and built unless it was already destroyed first. Therefore, the 70 weeks can't initially begin until some time after 607 BC to 587 BC, depending on which of these 2 dates it was actually destroyed.

650 BC or so, meaning roughly 69 weeks earlier from 168 BC, is during a time when Jerusalem hasn't even been destroyed yet. Therefore it can't fit what I have underlined in verse 25 above. So unless my math is wrong, I would think this alone totally debunks that AE4 is meant in Daniel 9:25-27 somewhere.

Told you I'm not counting weeks. The Temple was rebuilt after they returned from Babylon. What are you talking about?
 
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sovereigngrace

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After his Death, Jesus was in the "heart of the earth"
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Yes, His body.

He had descended into the "lower parts of the earth"
Ephesians 4:9 What does “He ascended” mean, except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth?

But God did not abandon him to hades, but raised Him from the dead.
Acts 2:31 Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay.

Jesus did not specifically say he hadn't "physically" ascended. He only stated he had not yet ascended to the Father. Thus, any belief that Jesus ascended to father prior to the resurrection is a contradiction to the very words of Christ.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them,

So, did He go to Hades for 3 days?
 
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sovereigngrace

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So you honestly don't believe matthew 22:7 is about 66-70ad? Most commentaries agree that is about 66-70ad.

It is YOU that is deflecting. I never said I disagreed with Matthew 22:7 referring to AD70. I am presenting important questions that you are ducking around.
 
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pasifika

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Yes, He is. Messiah.
Okay, so Matthew 24:15 ,..when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation spoken by the Prophet Daniel ..etc

And since you establish that the He in daniel 9:27 is the Messiah...
Then,
Did anyone see the Messiah standing in AD70...in the holy place? I think the holy place is referring to the holy place in temple...
And,
If you say is the Messiah was acting through the Roman armies then show a verse that directly shows it was the Messiah was seen literally directing the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem...because in Matthew 24:15 Jesus said if you "see"...I mean literally...
 
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jgr

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Okay, so Matthew 24:15 ,..when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation spoken by the Prophet Daniel ..etc

And since you establish that the He in daniel 9:27 is the Messiah...
Then,
Did anyone see the Messiah standing in AD70...in the holy place? I think the holy place is referring to the holy place in temple...
And,
If you say is the Messiah was acting through the Roman armies then show a verse that directly shows it was the Messiah was seen literally directing the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem...because in Matthew 24:15 Jesus said if you "see"...I mean literally...

Do you think Messiah was the abomination?

Who do you think was directing the Roman armies to carry out God's judgment upon Jerusalem?

What translation says "if you see"?

The people of the prince (Daniel 9:26) refers to the Roman armies which were Messiah the Prince's (Daniel 9:25) agents and instruments to accomplish the judgment and destruction which He had prophesied. God's use of such instruments, and His characterization of them as "mine" even though pagan, can be found in several OT instances e.g.:

Jeremiah 25
9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

Jeremiah 43
10 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.

God characterizes the pagan Nebuchadnezzar as "my servant" in using him and his armies against Judah and Egypt.

In the same way as Nebuchadnezzar, though a pagan, was God's servant in executing His judgment; so too were the pagan Roman armies (whose battle ensigns were abominations to the Jews) Messiah's people in accomplishing His purposes (the desolation of Jerusalem and Judea). (Daniel 9:26,27)

In addition, the Jews themselves, as the historical people of Messiah the Prince, were equally responsible for the suffering and destruction. Their own actions in defiling and destroying the buildings and temple prior to the Roman invasion are described by Josephus:

The Lamentation of Josephus
War 5.1.4 19-20


The darts that were thrown by the engines [of the seditious factions] came with that force, that they went over all the buildings and the Temple itself, and fell upon the priests and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and barbarians, with their own blood. The dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves.
Oh most wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy internal pollutions! For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou longer survive, after thou hadst been a sepulchre for the bodies of thine own people, and hast made the Holy House itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction.

As seen, Josephus recognizes the Jews as complicit agents of their own destruction, and that destruction as Divinely orchestrated.

Contemporary Jewish historians concur:
"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."


The people, both Roman and Jewish, of the prince Messiah who was to come, were Messiah's agents and instruments in accomplishing His purposes of judgment and destruction upon those who had rejected Him.
 
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pasifika

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Do you think Messiah was the abomination?

Who do you think was directing the Roman armies to carry out God's judgment upon Jerusalem?

What translation says "if you see"?

The people of the prince (Daniel 9:26) refers to the Roman armies which were Messiah the Prince's (Daniel 9:25) agents and instruments to accomplish the judgment and destruction which He had prophesied. God's use of such instruments, and His characterization of them as "mine" even though pagan, can be found in several OT instances e.g.:

Jeremiah 25
9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

Jeremiah 43
10 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.

God characterizes the pagan Nebuchadnezzar as "my servant" in using him and his armies against Judah and Egypt.

In the same way as Nebuchadnezzar, though a pagan, was God's servant in executing His judgment; so too were the pagan Roman armies (whose battle ensigns were abominations to the Jews) Messiah's people in accomplishing His purposes (the desolation of Jerusalem and Judea). (Daniel 9:26,27)

In addition, the Jews themselves, as the historical people of Messiah the Prince, were equally responsible for the suffering and destruction. Their own actions in defiling and destroying the buildings and temple prior to the Roman invasion are described by Josephus:

The Lamentation of Josephus
War 5.1.4 19-20


The darts that were thrown by the engines [of the seditious factions] came with that force, that they went over all the buildings and the Temple itself, and fell upon the priests and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and barbarians, with their own blood. The dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves.
Oh most wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy internal pollutions! For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou longer survive, after thou hadst been a sepulchre for the bodies of thine own people, and hast made the Holy House itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction.

As seen, Josephus recognizes the Jews as complicit agents of their own destruction, and that destruction as Divinely orchestrated.

Contemporary Jewish historians concur:
"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."


The people, both Roman and Jewish, of the prince Messiah who was to come, were Messiah's agents and instruments in accomplishing His purposes of judgment and destruction upon those who had rejected Him.
I don’t believe it was the Messiah the abomination in Daniel 9:27...that why I asked you in that post,of who is the "He" mention is Daniel 9:27..and you reply the Messiah...
I didn't ask you about Daniel 9:26...

Matthew 24:15..in the YLT Traslation is very similar to NIV in this verse...

Matthew 24:15 (YLT).... "whenever, therefore, ye may see the abomination of the desolation that was spoken of through Daniel the Prophet, standing in the holy place..."

Which chapter or verse in Daniel Jesus is referring to..if you say Daniel 9:26...then there is no mention of the word abomination there..
Thanks
 
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DavidPT

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Told you I'm not counting weeks. The Temple was rebuilt after they returned from Babylon. What are you talking about?


It doesn't matter when the temple was rebuilt, what matters is, that Jerusalem has to already be destroyed before the 70 weeks can initially begin, that according to Daniel 9:25.

I'm trying to help you out here by showing you that you are wasting your time trying to force AE4 into a prophecy he couldn't possibly fit it. It doesn't matter whether you want to count the weeks or not, the weeks are still revelavant and that they literally have a starting point. That starting point has to be after Jerusalem has already been destroyed. That starting point is impossible if AE4 is meant during the 70th week. That places the beginning of the 70 weeks during a time when Jerusalem is not even destroyed yet, thus contradicting Daniel 9:25 in the process. And I'm not even asking you to adopt my position instead, I'm just trying to honestly help you out here by showing you AE4 cannot work with the 70 weeks. It is mathematically impossible.
 
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DavidPT

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Which chapter or verse in Daniel Jesus is referring to..if you say Daniel 9:26...then there is no mention of the word abomination there..
Thanks


Exactly. I wonder how one gets around this one without doing all kinds of gymnastics with the texts?
 
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DavidPT

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Told you I'm not counting weeks. The Temple was rebuilt after they returned from Babylon. What are you talking about?


Earlier you indicated I'm not paying attention, yet you are the one not paying attention to things, otherwise you would be paying attention to what Daniel 9:25 is telling us. And that is, that Jerusalem has to already be destroyed before the 70 weeks initially begin. In 650 BC or so, give or take a few years, which would have to be the starting point of the 70 weeks if AE4 is meant in the 70th week, Jerusalem had not even been destroyed yet.
 
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claninja

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So, did He go to Hades for 3 days?

I would say yes, as peter states that Christ was not abandoned to Hades because of the resurrection.

Acts 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption


Additionally, prior to Jesus' death on the cross, the spirit already went to God, so the cross wouldn't have been the transition of going home to be with the Lord after death "in spirit", as you seem to argue in favor of.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.


It is YOU that is deflecting. I never said I disagreed with Matthew 22:7 referring to AD70.

Good, I'm glad we agree that Matthew 22:7 is about 66-70ad.

what occurs after the city and people are destroyed in 66-70ad?


1. Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?


Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

Matthew 25:34 the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

2. Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there is about to be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

1 thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”


3. Please list the Scriptures you believe support these?

Done, see above

4. Tell us exactly what all happens at this coming?

Please see olivet discourse for details (Mark 13, Matthew 24, Luke 21)
 
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sovereigngrace

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I would say yes, as peter states that Christ was not abandoned to Hades because of the resurrection.

Acts 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption


Additionally, prior to Jesus' death on the cross, the spirit already went to God, so the cross wouldn't have been the transition of going home to be with the Lord after death "in spirit", as you seem to argue in favor of.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.




Good, I'm glad we agree that Matthew 22:7 is about 66-70ad.

what occurs after the city and people are destroyed in 66-70ad?





Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

Matthew 25:34 the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.



Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there is about to be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

1 thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”




Done, see above



Please see olivet discourse for details (Mark 13, Matthew 24, Luke 21)

You avoided my first 2 questions:

1. Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
2. Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
 
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claninja

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If it is somehow meaning Jerusalem, which it could be, though I tend to doubt that it is, it wouldn't be meaning Jerusalem in the literal sense in the first century. It would have to be meaning Jesrusalem in some other sense, assuming Jerusalem were meant.

Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that babylon the great/the prostitute that rides the beast is indeed Jerusalem. Revelation should not be interpreted independent of scriptures.

1.) The righteous blood shed is found in babylon the great/the prostitute.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”

Is there any other scripture that tells us who is charged with all the righteous blood shed? YES. Jesus charges 1st century Jerusalem with all the righteous blood shed.

Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.


2.) Revelation defines the great city as Jerusalem
Revelation 17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

Revelation 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

3.) After the prostitute is judged, the wedding feast is ready. This correlates with the parable of the wedding feast, which you agreed at least partially, is about 1st century Jerusalem 66-70ad.
Revelation 19:2 for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”
Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;

Matthew 22:7-8 the king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy.

Yet, if one intreprets those same Scriptures like I do, they prove there is a delay since this would make the coming in Matthew 24:30 the same coming seen in Revelation 19. And if the coming in Matthew 24:30 is meaning Christ's coming in the end of this age via the way I interpret that verse, that makes the coming which starts in Revelation 19:11 as occurring in the end of this age as well, therefore placing the timing of Revelation 19:2 in the end of the age also. Further proving the wedding feast was put on hold for at least 2000 years or so, depending on when Christ actually returns since we don't know when that is, the fact it hasn't happened yet.

Clearly then, depending on how one interprets some of these things, makes all the difference in the world as to the end result. What one should be trying to do, regardless, is to be on the same page Jesus was when He spoke these things. If I am interpreting what Jesus said one way, and you are interpreting it another way, both of us can't be correct then. Either we are both wrong, or at least one of us is right.

In regards to the destruction of Jerusalem and the coming of the son of man in judgment upon Israel and the gathering the elect from the 4 winds, Jesus specifically states:

Matthew 23:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Thus, making the "delay" between the the destruction of the Jerusalem and the gathering to the wedding feast less plausible.
 
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claninja

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You avoided my first 2 questions:

If the spirit already went back to God prior to the ascension of Christ (ecclesiastes 12:7), why are you arguing that the transition of the spirit going to heaven upon death occurred after the ascension of the Christ?

1. Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?

I am answering using scripture. I believe exactly as the scriptures say.

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

Matthew 25:34 the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

2. Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?

I believe exactly as the scriptures say:

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there is about to be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

1 thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”
 
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