Daniel's 70th week

summerville · Feb 27, 2020

DavidPT said:
As to Daniel 9:27, regardless when one thinks that was fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled, what are your thoughts on that verse in general? Do you at least agree with me that everything mentioned in that verse is fulfilled within that same week?

Antiochus IV caused oblations to cease when he defiled the Temple... He was a real bad actor.. He killed Jews for circumcising their sons and persecuted them horribly. He was hell bent to turn them into Greeks. How can anyone reasonably skip Antiochus?

DavidPT · Feb 27, 2020

jgr said:
The NIV that you're using is frequently translationally inaccurate. Only it and two other of the about fifty English versions translate as "...he will set up..."

The best version for literal translation accuracy is the YLT:

"And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one."

By the wing of abominations (the Roman armies) he (Messiah) is making desolate.

Messiah used the Roman armies to desolate Jerusalem, and accomplish His purposes.

As I've been explaining.

But if everything in verse 27 is fulfilled within that same week, this interpretation obviously can't work unless there is a gap in the 70th week itself.

DavidPT · Feb 27, 2020

summerville said:
Antiochus IV caused oblations to cease when he defiled the Temple... He was a real bad actor.. He killed Jews for circumcising their sons and persecuted them horribly. He was hell bent to turn them into Greeks. How can anyone reasonably skip Antiochus?

What does this interpretation mean in relation to verse 27? Does it mean everything recorded in verse 27 is fulfilled within that same week?

jgr · Feb 27, 2020

DavidPT said:
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

Do you agree or disagree that this portion only involves 69 weeks? IOW, it doesn't involve anything before the 69 weeks nor anything after the 69 weeks? Assuming you agree, the same should be true of the following, in a similar manner.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It stands to reason that if what I quoted from Daniel 9:25-26, that this portion doesn't involve anything outside of the first 69 weeks, the same should be true of verse 27 in like manner, it doesn't involve anything before the 70th week nor after the 70th week. Everything in this verse occurs within the 70th week. And the fact it does, that's how I can know without a doubt that I'm interpreting verse 27 correctly and that some of the rest of you are not. Your interpretations couldn't possibly work if all of verse 27 occurs within the 70th week. The way some of you try and get around this, you deny that everything in verse 27 occurs within the 70th week.

Let me bring up the following again since no one bothered to respond to it when I posted it earlier.

This is from post #834.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

The text indicates he shall make 'it' desolate. Make what desolate? What is the nearest antecedent? Is it not this---the sacrifice and the oblation? Or it this instead---the covenant?

It has to be one or the other since that is the only two choices for the nearest antecedent in this particular verse.

Which then brings up another point, meaning those interpretations which see 2 periods of time in verse 27, where the latter period is not even part of the 70th week.

1st period of time---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--thus within the 70th week.

2nd period of time---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---thus outside of the 70th week according to these particular interpretations.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate---that this is meaning outside of the 70th week according to some interpretations, yet according to the text it is the following that is being made desolate---the sacrifice and the oblation. How is one to make sense of an interpretation such as that? The only way to make sense of the text in verse 27, all of the text has to be meaning during the 70th week. Now we can make sense of why the sacrifice and the oblation is the nearest antecedent of what is being made desolate. Yet we can't make sense of the text in verse 27 if any of the pronouns are meaning Christ, though. Or at least I can't.

And another point that needs to be stressed. There are not two actors in verse 27, there is only one. The same one that confirms the covenant is the same one that causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and is the same one for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate. How one can think Christ fits all of this is beyond belief?

See post 880.

The word "it" does not appear in the YLT, nor in the Hebrew.

summerville · Feb 27, 2020

jgr said:
The NIV that you're using is frequently translationally inaccurate. Only it and two other of the about fifty English versions translate as "...he will set up..."

The best version for literal translation accuracy is the YLT:

"And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one."

By the wing of abominations (the Roman armies) he (Messiah) is making desolate.

Messiah used the Roman armies to desolate Jerusalem, and accomplish His purposes.

As I've been explaining.

That's not quite the size of it. Titus commanded Roman garrisons , but also troops from other nearby countries in the Roman Empire... namely Syrians, Arabs and Egyptians. Plus, the zealots, Indumeans and Galileans were running amok. The zealots killed Jews who wouldn't fight with them.. They destroyed food supplies as well to try and force them to fight.

Look back to the Sermon on the Mount.. Jesus knew how fractured the Jews were fighting each other and the Romans. The Essenes, Herodians, Zealots, Sicarri, Pharisees and Saducees were at each other's throats. Some collaborated with the Romans and wanted the status quo .. others wanted all out war.

Jesus tried to teach them non violent resistance.. He could see they were headed for disaster.

jgr · Feb 27, 2020

DavidPT said:
But if everything in verse 27 is fulfilled within that same week, this interpretation obviously can't work unless there is a gap in the 70th week itself.

Nothing says that everything in verse 27 is fulfilled within that same week.

DavidPT · Feb 27, 2020

jgr said:
Nothing says that everything in verse 27 is fulfilled within that same week.

But in the event you could be wrong about that, since that's a possibility, how could you then argue no gaps in the 70 weeks when there would obviously have to be a gap in the 70th week in order for your interpretation to even work in the event you are mistaken about verse 27 to begin with?

DavidPT · Feb 27, 2020

jgr said:
See post 880.

The word "it" does not appear in the YLT, nor in the Hebrew.

Maybe not, yet there still has to be a nearest antecedent in that verse to---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make desolate. It still requires needing to know what is being made desolate in that verse.

claninja · Feb 27, 2020

DavidPT said:
While that verse was about 66-70ad, thus first century events,

I agree

DavidPT said:
all of the following wouldn't be though.

I agree the events of the good and bad wedding guests being gathered into the hall occurred after 66-70ad and not during.

DavidPT said:
Even though the wedding was ready at the time, apparently meaning in the first century, the wedding was put on hold because they which were bidden were not worthy.

What scripture states the wedding feast was put on hold?

DavidPT said:
Verse 9 and 10 is therefore meaning the entire church age, IOW, at least 2000 years and counting. So when we get to this part in verse 10---and the wedding was furnished with guests--- we are now at the end of the age instead, and that Jesus has returned to the earth again at this point.

Would you agree, that this parable helps us interpret revelation?

For when 1st century Jerusalem is destroyed, the wedding banquet is ready, just as when the prostitute/Babylon the great is destroyed, the wedding supper is ready.

Matthew 22:7-8 The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the crossroads and invite to the banquet as many as you can find.’

Revelation 19:2 For His judgments are true and just. He has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality. He has avenged the blood of His servants
that was poured out by her hand.” Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory.
For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.

DavidPT · Feb 27, 2020

jgr said:
See post 880.

The word "it" does not appear in the YLT, nor in the Hebrew.

Can you provide any interpretations by any early church fathers pre 70 AD, where any of them interpreted verse 27 in the same manner you do? Anything after 70 AD doesn't count, since the point I'm trying to raise is, how did anyone reading Daniel 9:27 prior to 70 AD reason that verse? Did they, too, think this part was referring to what would ultimately take place in 70 AD, though at the time they wouldn't have known 70AD would be the date of some of these events, obviously--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate?

My point also is, we can look at some of these things in hindsight, something that they never had back then, since some of these events would have still been future to them regardless when they are fulfilled.

claninja · Feb 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Jesus ascended to the Father in Spirit, then His Spirit came back down into His resurrected body 3 days later, He told Mary He had not yet physically ascended, then physically ascended back to the Father 40 days later.

After his Death, Jesus was in the "heart of the earth"
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He had descended into the "lower parts of the earth"
Ephesians 4:9 What does “He ascended” mean, except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth?

But God did not abandon him to hades, but raised Him from the dead.
Acts 2:31 Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay.

Jesus did not specifically say he hadn't "physically" ascended. He only stated he had not yet ascended to the Father. Thus, any belief that Jesus ascended to father prior to the resurrection is a contradiction to the very words of Christ.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them,

DavidPT · Feb 27, 2020

claninja said:
Would you agree, that this parable helps us interpret revelation?

For when 1st century Jerusalem is destroyed, the wedding banquet is ready, just as when the prostitute/Babylon the great is destroyed, the wedding supper is ready.

Matthew 22:7-8 The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the crossroads and invite to the banquet as many as you can find.’

Revelation 19:2 For His judgments are true and just. He has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality. He has avenged the blood of His servants
that was poured out by her hand.” Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory.
For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.

I agree it helps us, but not in the same way you are meaning. You initially asked me---What scripture states the wedding feast was put on hold?---and oddly enough, one of those very Scriptures, you included it above, meaning Revelation 19:2. That chapter involves the return of Christ in the end of this age, thus proving to me that the wedding feast was initially put on hold until it was fully furnished with guests, which would require at least 2000 years to furnish all of these guests, apparently.

claninja · Feb 27, 2020

DavidPT said:
I agree it helps us, but not in the same way you are meaning. You initially asked me---What scripture states the wedding feast was put on hold?---and oddly enough, one of those very Scriptures, you included it above, meaning Revelation 19:2. That chapter involves the return of Christ in the end of this age, thus proving to me that the wedding feast was initially put on hold until it was fully furnished with guests, which would require at least 2000 years to furnish all of these guests, obviously.

I'm glad you agree it helps. Does that mean you agree that the prostitute/Babylon the great is Jerusalem?

However, we can use scripture to show that there would not be a delay, as the gathering to the wedding feast would begin immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:39-41 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

jgr · Feb 27, 2020

DavidPT said:
Can you provide any interpretations by any early church fathers pre 70 AD, where any of them interpreted verse 27 in the same manner you do? Anything after 70 AD doesn't count, since the point I'm trying to raise is, how did anyone reading Daniel 9:27 prior to 70 AD reason that verse? Did they, too, think this part was referring to what would ultimately take place in 70 AD, though at the time they wouldn't have known 70AD would be the date of some of these events, obviously--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate?

My point also is, we can look at some of these things in hindsight, something that they never had back then, since some of these events would have still been future to them regardless when they are fulfilled.

The Judaean Christians interpreted it thus. They heeded Jesus' warning, fled, and survived.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

jgr · Feb 27, 2020

DavidPT said:
Maybe not, yet there still has to be a nearest antecedent in that verse to---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make desolate. It still requires needing to know what is being made desolate in that verse.

You'll have to ask the translators.

DavidPT · Feb 27, 2020

claninja said:
I'm glad you agree it helps. Does that mean you agree that the prostitute/Babylon the great is Jerusalem?

If it is somehow meaning Jerusalem, which it could be, though I tend to doubt that it is, it wouldn't be meaning Jerusalem in the literal sense in the first century. It would have to be meaning Jesrusalem in some other sense, assuming Jerusalem were meant.

claninja said:
However, we can use scripture to show that there would not be a delay, as the gathering to the wedding feast would begin immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:39-41 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Yet, if one intreprets those same Scriptures like I do, they prove there is a delay since this would make the coming in Matthew 24:30 the same coming seen in Revelation 19. And if the coming in Matthew 24:30 is meaning Christ's coming in the end of this age via the way I interpret that verse, that makes the coming which starts in Revelation 19:11 as occurring in the end of this age as well, therefore placing the timing of Revelation 19:2 in the end of the age also. Further proving the wedding feast was put on hold for at least 2000 years or so, depending on when Christ actually returns since we don't know when that is, the fact it hasn't happened yet.

Clearly then, depending on how one interprets some of these things, makes all the difference in the world as to the end result. What one should be trying to do, regardless, is to be on the same page Jesus was when He spoke these things. If I am interpreting what Jesus said one way, and you are interpreting it another way, both of us can't be correct then. Either we are both wrong, or at least one of us is right.

DavidPT · Feb 27, 2020

jgr said:
You'll have to ask the translators.

Why would that be up to the translators? Something in verse 27 has to be explaining what is being made desolate, the fact that is the last verse in that chapter. I would think that is just plain common sense.

summerville · Feb 27, 2020

jgr said:
The Judaean Christians interpreted it thus. They heeded Jesus' warning, fled, and survived.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Pretty good indication that the tribulation was local.

DavidPT · Feb 27, 2020

summerville said:
Pretty good indication that the tribulation was local.

Yet, one then has to explain exactly what the abomination that makes desolate was at the time. I have yet to see anyone provide a satisfactory explanation for that part, meaning one that would be hard to dispute.

We have to keep in mind, seeing the abomination that maketh desolate is the reason one has to leave, as if a volcano were erupting in their vicinity, thus no time to pack, get out while you still can or stay and die.

When these Christians fled in the first century, did they all flee at the exact same time, as in one big group?

summerville · Feb 27, 2020

DavidPT said:
Yet, one then has to explain exactly what the abomination that makes desolate was at the time. I have yet to see anyone provide a satisfactory explanation for that part, meaning one that would be hard to dispute.

Tell them to read up on Antiochus IV Epiphanes (God Manifest) He made Jerusalem "desolate".. Three years later the Jews rededicated the Temple. (See Hannukah)

Daniel's 70th week

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