Exodus

redleghunter · Feb 25, 2020

summerville said:
Nope ..never heard of them. My interest is not in denominations.. my interest is in history, archaeology and to a lesser extent linguistics. I made three two week trips to the Holy Lands with my Sunday school class before 1967.. and began to question the grandiose exaggerations of the OT. Of course I was quite young so I had already come up against the global flood, Exodus, Jonah etc.

Is the resurrection of the dead an exaggeration? Meaning where do you draw the line on ancient exaggerations?

redleghunter · Feb 25, 2020

Hope1960 said:
I haven’t gotten that far, yet.

Understand. You will find out as you keep reading the Israelites God delivered from bondage in Egypt were quite the complainers. God called them “stiff necked.”

Athanasius377 · Feb 25, 2020

Hope1960 said:
Now can you tackle post # 29 by Jack RT?

Easy. Who was the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night did not depart from before the people. Who made the bitter water sweet and rained bread from heaven? Who filled the camp with quail and sprung water from a rock? In short, Who saves His people? Both then and now? If it were just the movement of people then yes, everyone of them would have died in the wilderness. But it wasn't because God was with them. How do I know that? Because the author of Exodus tells us.

JackRT · Feb 25, 2020

Athanasius377 said:
Easy. Who was the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night did not depart from before the people. Who made the bitter water sweet and rained bread from heaven? Who filled the camp with quail and sprung water from a rock? In short, Who saves His people? Both then and now? If it were just the movement of people then yes, everyone of them would have died in the wilderness. But it wasn't because God was with them. How do I know that? Because the author of Exodus tells us.

Perhaps the author of Exodus was making all the connections with a truth story rather than a true story?

Athanasius377 · Feb 25, 2020

JackRT said:
Perhaps the author of Exodus was making all the connections with a truth story rather than a true story?

Or the author is giving historical narrative. Jesus seems to think so. Recall Jesus's dispute with the Sadducees in Mark 12:

18 And Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection. And they asked him a question, saying, 19 “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the man must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 There were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and when he died left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and died, leaving no offspring. And the third likewise. 22 And the seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman also died. 23 In the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife.”

24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Mk 12:18–27). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

FaithT · Feb 25, 2020

Athanasius377 said:
Easy. Who was the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night did not depart from before the people. Who made the bitter water sweet and rained bread from heaven? Who filled the camp with quail and sprung water from a rock? In short, Who saves His people? Both then and now? If it were just the movement of people then yes, everyone of them would have died in the wilderness. But it wasn't because God was with them. How do I know that? Because the author of Exodus tells us.

Were these occurrences supernatural miracles, too?

FaithT · Feb 25, 2020

I wrote this in a different sub forum..... I just had a thought. Some of the many stories in the Bible seem hard to believe, and I wondered why there are so many stories there, yet we never see these events today. It bothered me because I thought that makes me a poor Christian. Then it occurred to me that maybe they’re in the Bible BECAUSE they’re so extraordinary. Like maybe the events, long ages etc. were preserved in this Book because they were so miraculous and out of the norm. What do you all think?

FaithT · Feb 26, 2020

Hope1960 said:
I wrote this in a different sub forum..... I just had a thought. Some of the many stories in the Bible seem hard to believe, and I wondered why there are so many stories there, yet we never see these events today. It bothered me because I thought that makes me a poor Christian. Then it occurred to me that maybe they’re in the Bible BECAUSE they’re so extraordinary. Like maybe the events, long ages etc. were preserved in this Book because they were so miraculous and out of the norm. What do you all think?

?

Athanasius377 · Feb 26, 2020

Hope1960 said:
Were these occurrences supernatural miracles, too?

I would say they are. Unless someone out there has a GPS that spawns pillars of cloud and fire.

.
I'm just kidding. Anyway, here is my opinion for what its worth (probably not much). Lets start with Scripture:
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Heb 1:1–3). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

God has always interacted with His creation whether by direct intervention, divine providence, the prophets, His only Son and the sending forth of His Holy Spirit. Sometimes God works in simple ways perhaps in just one person and at other times in drastic ways. It is my belief that God acted in such a way as to separate out His people. To be the source of Justice and Mercy among his people. When you read the Law you will find the phrase, "As I have delivered you out of Egypt" over and over again. The text will also appeal to those who witnessed these mighty acts. And why did God do such a thing? Because through these people the Messiah, the Christ would be incarnated. Remember, always read the OT through the lens of the NT. You should be able to find Jesus on every page of Scripture.

So why does God work in signs and wonders sometimes and by other means in other times? He works in my opinion in signs and wonders in order to spread the Gospel. Now, you may not think of the giving of the Law on Sinai as Gospel but in a sense it is. Consider, how could sins be forgiven before the giving of the Law? Now the Israelites have a means to be forgiven. It is not a perfect system because the people still had to approach the altar year after year to atone for their sins. The perfection comes with the coming of Jesus. Read Hebrews 8.

And after the coming of Jesus and the announcement of the Good News (Gospel), what accompanied this announcement? Signs and wonders. The sick being healed, the dead being raised, sins forgiven. Now that we have a record of these in the pages of Scripture, the signs and wonders have largley ceased. I say largely because there are stories of signs and wonders in parts of the world where the Scripture is hard to come by or outright illegal. For example I am aware of a christian minister who works in the Middle East among a majority Muslim population who receives visitors all the time stating they had a dream about Jesus or Jesus appeared to them. And not just one time but sometimes over a period of time. And these are not superstitious folks but Engineers, doctors, highly educated folk and common folk. Add to the most of them are muslim in name only so they are not really religious when these events happen to them.

So what'a the bottom line? You are correct. These events are in the Bible because they are kind of a big deal. Also, these supernatural events often announce the intentions of God and his Gospel whether OT or NT.

FaithT · Feb 26, 2020

Athanasius377 said:
I would say they are. Unless someone out there has a GPS that spawns pillars of cloud and fire. .
I'm just kidding. Anyway, here is my opinion for what its worth (probably not much). Lets start with Scripture:
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Heb 1:1–3). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

God has always interacted with His creation whether by direct intervention, divine providence, the prophets, His only Son and the sending forth of His Holy Spirit. Sometimes God works in simple ways perhaps in just one person and at other times in drastic ways. It is my belief that God acted in such a way as to separate out His people. To be the source of Justice and Mercy among his people. When you read the Law you will find the phrase, "As I have delivered you out of Egypt" over and over again. The text will also appeal to those who witnessed these mighty acts. And why did God do such a thing? Because through these people the Messiah, the Christ would be incarnated. Remember, always read the OT through the lens of the NT. You should be able to find Jesus on every page of Scripture.

So why does God work in signs and wonders sometimes and by other means in other times? He works in my opinion in signs and wonders in order to spread the Gospel. Now, you may not think of the giving of the Law on Sinai as Gospel but in a sense it is. Consider, how could sins be forgiven before the giving of the Law? Now the Israelites have a means to be forgiven. It is not a perfect system because the people still had to approach the altar year after year to atone for their sins. The perfection comes with the coming of Jesus. Read Hebrews 8.

And after the coming of Jesus and the announcement of the Good News (Gospel), what accompanied this announcement? Signs and wonders. The sick being healed, the dead being raised, sins forgiven. Now that we have a record of these in the pages of Scripture, the signs and wonders have largley ceased. I say largely because there are stories of signs and wonders in parts of the world where the Scripture is hard to come by or outright illegal. For example I am aware of a christian minister who works in the Middle East among a majority Muslim population who receives visitors all the time stating they had a dream about Jesus or Jesus appeared to them. And not just one time but sometimes over a period of time. And these are not superstitious folks but Engineers, doctors, highly educated folk and common folk. Add to the most of them are muslim in name only so they are not really religious when these events happen to them.

So what'a the bottom line? You are correct. These events are in the Bible because they are kind of a big deal. Also, these supernatural events often announce the intentions of God and his Gospel whether OT or NT.

So you agree with this, below, then? Including my last sentence?

<<<<<<<<I just had a thought. Some of the many stories in the Bible seem hard to believe, and I wondered why there are so many stories there, yet we never see these events today. It bothered me because I thought that makes me a poor Christian. Then it occurred to me that maybe they’re in the Bible BECAUSE they’re so extraordinary. Like maybe the events, long ages etc. were preserved in this Book because they were so miraculous and out of the norm.>>>>>>>

Athanasius377 · Feb 26, 2020

Hope1960 said:
So you agree with this, below, then? Including my last sentence?

<<<<<<<<I just had a thought. Some of the many stories in the Bible seem hard to believe, and I wondered why there are so many stories there, yet we never see these events today. It bothered me because I thought that makes me a poor Christian. Then it occurred to me that maybe they’re in the Bible BECAUSE they’re so extraordinary. Like maybe the events, long ages etc. were preserved in this Book because they were so miraculous and out of the norm.>>>>>>>

Yes I do. I would say it’s not the only reason because there’s so much more there. Kinda reminds me of this:

Athanasius377 · Feb 26, 2020

Hope1960 said:
Is the author writing an historical account or mythological like one poster said? Where did all their food and water come from? A miracle from God elsewhere?

It sounds like you are reading your bible perhaps all the way through for the first time so naturally you have a lot of questions. As an orthodox believer I welcome any question you might have. Might I also recommend something I think you will find invaluable. It’s the ESV Study Bible published by Crossway. IMO it’s the best one volume Bible and commentary in print today. A hardback copy costs about $30 and a large print is also available if you’re like me who needs reading glasses to read small print.

Here is the Amazon listing through it’s available in most bookstores.

https://www.amazon.com/ESV-Study-Bi...tudy+bible&qid=1582749868&sprefix=esv+&sr=8-3

it’s pretty solid though not especially Lutheran when it comes to the Sacraments. That’s when I would rely on Luther’s small catechism. It’s not perfect but it comes pretty darn close.

FaithT · Feb 26, 2020

Athanasius377 said:
It sounds like you are reading your bible perhaps all the way through for the first time so naturally you have a lot of questions. As an orthodox believer I welcome any question you might have. Might I also recommend something I think you will find invaluable. It’s the ESV Study Bible published by Crossway. IMO it’s the best one volume Bible and commentary in print today. A hardback copy costs about $30 and a large print is also available if you’re like me who needs reading glasses to read small print.

Here is the Amazon listing through it’s available in most bookstores.

https://www.amazon.com/ESV-Study-Bi...tudy+bible&qid=1582749868&sprefix=esv+&sr=8-3

it’s pretty solid though not especially Lutheran when it comes to the Sacraments. That’s when I would rely on Luther’s small catechism. It’s not perfect but it comes pretty darn close.

Thanks for all your help. I’ve got so many Bibles already, can’t buy any more. I’ve been using the NIV Life Application Study Bible lately.

FaithT · Feb 27, 2020

Athanasius377 said:
It sounds like you are reading your bible perhaps all the way through for the first time so naturally you have a lot of questions. As an orthodox believer I welcome any question you might have. Might I also recommend something I think you will find invaluable. It’s the ESV Study Bible published by Crossway. IMO it’s the best one volume Bible and commentary in print today. A hardback copy costs about $30 and a large print is also available if you’re like me who needs reading glasses to read small print.

Here is the Amazon listing through it’s available in most bookstores.

https://www.amazon.com/ESV-Study-Bi...tudy+bible&qid=1582749868&sprefix=esv+&sr=8-3

it’s pretty solid though not especially Lutheran when it comes to the Sacraments. That’s when I would rely on Luther’s small catechism. It’s not perfect but it comes pretty darn close.

I’m not reading the Bible all the way through, I’m reading Exodus because of the documentaries, Patterns of Evidence.

summerville · Feb 27, 2020

Hope1960 said:
I’m not reading the Bible all the way through, I’m reading Exodus because of the documentaries, Patterns of Evidence.

One problem is that the Pentateuch doesn't come into being until 800 years after Moses.

JackRT · Feb 27, 2020

summerville said:
One problem is that the Pentateuch doesn't come into being until 800 years after Moses.

Agreed!

Most modern bible scholars believe that Moses did not write the Torah. Based on their quite different writing styles and use of vocabulary, at least five authors (J,E,P,D and R) have been tentatively identified . "J" used the word Jehovah exclusively for God and may have been a person, perhaps a woman, in the court of Solomon about 950 BC. "E" used Elohim for God and wrote in the Northern Kingdom about 200 years later. "P" was concerned primarily with ritual and law and were probably priests writing during the Exile. "D" wrote the entire book of Deuteronomy about 625 BC. "R" were the redactors or editors who cobbled it all together. This whole process took place over some 500 years. The type of scholarship that led to the above conclusion is known as "critical biblical scholarship". In this context the word "critical" carries a narrow meaning ---- analytical and objective and not necessarily literal. It does not imply that this scholarship regards the Bible in any sort of pejorative way.

summerville · Feb 27, 2020

JackRT said:
Agreed!

Most modern bible scholars believe that Moses did not write the Torah. Based on their quite different writing styles and use of vocabulary, at least five authors (J,E,P,D and R) have been tentatively identified . "J" used the word Jehovah exclusively for God and may have been a person, perhaps a woman, in the court of Solomon about 950 BC. "E" used Elohim for God and wrote in the Northern Kingdom about 200 years later. "P" was concerned primarily with ritual and law and were probably priests writing during the Exile. "D" wrote the entire book of Deuteronomy about 625 BC. "R" were the redactors or editors who cobbled it all together. This whole process took place over some 500 years. The type of scholarship that led to the above conclusion is known as "critical biblical scholarship". In this context the word "critical" carries a narrow meaning ---- analytical and objective and not necessarily literal. It does not imply that this scholarship regards the Bible in any sort of pejorative way.

Great post.. You know your stuff. There is also a matter of Judah and Israel having different versions of the stories.

FaithT · Feb 27, 2020

Athanasius377 said:
It sounds like you are reading your bible perhaps all the way through for the first time so naturally you have a lot of questions. As an orthodox believer I welcome any question you might have. Might I also recommend something I think you will find invaluable. It’s the ESV Study Bible published by Crossway. IMO it’s the best one volume Bible and commentary in print today. A hardback copy costs about $30 and a large print is also available if you’re like me who needs reading glasses to read small print.

Here is the Amazon listing through it’s available in most bookstores.

https://www.amazon.com/ESV-Study-Bi...tudy+bible&qid=1582749868&sprefix=esv+&sr=8-3

it’s pretty solid though not especially Lutheran when it comes to the Sacraments. That’s when I would rely on Luther’s small catechism. It’s not perfect but it comes pretty darn close.

Can you please address post # 76?

FaithT · Feb 28, 2020

Hope1960 said:
Can you please address post # 76?

?

summerville · Feb 28, 2020

Hope1960 said:
I’m not reading the Bible all the way through, I’m reading Exodus because of the documentaries, Patterns of Evidence.

I hope you aren't expecting evidence for Moses or the Exodus.

Exodus

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