The seven kings of Revelation 17:10

Douggg

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Where does it say they have to be Julio-Claudians?
It does not say Julio-Claudians in the text. But that is the connection because Nero was the last of the Julio-Claudians, and ruling at the time of John. Julius Caesar was the first of the series that ended the republic, when he declared himself dictator for life.

Julio-Claudian dynasty - Wikipedia

"The Julio-Claudian dynasty was the first Roman imperial dynasty, consisting of the first five emperorsAugustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero[1]—or the family to which they belonged. They ruled the Roman Empire from its formation under Augustus in 27 BC until AD 68 (95 years), when the last of the line, Nero, committed suicide"


The beast will be King 8, and is of the 7. He is one of them (the Julio-Claudians). Which of the 7 is in the text of Revelation 17:11.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

King 7 is the yet to come king. And when he comes, it says in Revelation 17:10, he must continue a short space. The short space is the 42 months in Revelation 13:4, as the beast, after he (will be) is killed, and is brought back to life.
 
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Douggg

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Douggg

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@summerville

Another reason that Gog/Magog has not happened yet is that in Ezekiel 39 seven years after the burial of Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:11-16, there is another event in Ezekiel 39:17-20 - the Armageddon event. It corresponds to Revelation 19:17-18.

In Ezekiel 39:21, it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text, having returned to earth (in the future), to rule over the nations.
 
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summerville

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So what do you do with the Scythian invasion?

The Jewish historian Josephus says that Magog is the nation that the Greeks call Scythia. (Book 1, chapter 6) Scythia was on the northern coast of the Black Sea.

They spread out north and east from there. Their territory would overlap modern Russia. Many people who believe that Revelation will be fulfilled in the near future identify Magog with Russia. (I have no idea if modern Russians are descended from Magog or just occupy a similar territory, or if anyone knows.)
 
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Josheb

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I hope you're right about futurism not being mainstream.
The formal position of the Roman Catholic Church, The Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church, and many other denominations is that of Amillennialism. Even when that is the case they do not make a given eschatological position necessity. Eschatology is not generally considered core. Many Dispensational Premillennialism make Christianity about eschatology.

There are four or five prominent eschatological positions (Historic Premillennialism, Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, Idealism, and Dispensational Premillennialism). The first three can be traced easily and directly to the ECFs. Historic Premillennialism is generally acknowledged as the oldest of the bunch but the amil and postmil povs are also well-established well on. Amillennialism became the overhwelming majority position in all of Christendom with Augustine, although Augustine changed and evolved his views over his lifetime and might have ended someplace else had he lived longer. While Idealism was around beforehand it didn't garner much terrain until the Reformation (Calvin was in many ways an Idealist).

In other words, DPism is only one of five views and when the others are considered together then DPism is a minority view. Very sensationalistically popularized, but not the majority. In comparison to Amillennialism, DPism is not the majority, either. No one would ever know that were they to measure this by the shelves of their local Christian book store.
I cannot even imagine Jesus neglecting his followers in favor of talking to people thousands of years in the future. That would be cruel in the extreme.
Amen. Point well taken but this reality that large portions of scripture become irrelevant to generations of Christians escapes far-futurists. They attempt to hide behind the premise of "imminence" but that doesn't erase the fact the Bible prophesy reader is told to look for X but X never happens for them. This is not the same as saying, "When B happens.... then look for X to happen." Scripture's prophesies do often say that. When the Messiah comes then X, Y, and Z will happen. The problem is the Messiah came in the first century but far-futurists refuse to accept the X, Y, and Z did happen back then and they irrationally think the post hoc response it didn't happen, or "When did that happen?" is veracious. What they really means is, "When did my far-futurist interpretation happen?" or more accurately, "When did my far-futurist interpretation and not your scripture-rendered scriptural interpretation happen?" It is a poisoned well. They egregiously neglect the core concept or the original writer's and original readers' understanding.
 
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Josheb

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Galba was not a Julio-Claudian.
Revelation 17:10 does not say the king has to be a Julio-Claudian. That is just one of many, many, many, many, many inane imaginations far-futurism adds to the book that explicitly tells us not to add to the book.

You're arguing a non sequitur.

I am pointing out that fact.

You do with it what you want but it is what it is: nonsense. It's not in the Bible. It is a 21st addition to scripture based on one specific very sensationalistic eschatological position that is less than 200 years old and is a radical departure from both the orthodox and historical position of the Church for the last 20 centuries.

You do with that what you want. Every time I read one of these ops I'm going to note the flaws and errors and where I can asserts more scripturally, exegetically, or historically veracious position.

You do with that what you want, but I encourage you to prepare for such responses before posting these ops. You do what you want with it but I encourage and exhort you to be open to what others bring to bear on these ops and do so with Bible in hand and open.




Galba may not have been Julio-Claudian, but he was a king for a only a little while. That's a fact of history. Undeniable, indisputable, irrefutable. He was a "king." Undeniable, indisputable, irrefutable. He has first century relevance. Undeniable, indisputable, irrefutable. He fits the measure of Rev. 17:10. Undeniable, indisputable, irrefutable.


You do with that what you want but the lurkers are watching what you do with it so be wise and bear a Godly witness. Consider its credibility. Galba was king only for a little while and therefore meets the measure of Rev. 17:10.
 
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Douggg

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So what do you do with the Scythian invasion?
The first thing I would ask myself, if it was of Biblical proportions? The next thing I would ask was it in the latter days? Ezekiel 38:16. In the latter years? Ezekiel 38:8.

Is there a massive historical grave site, known as Hamongog which took 7 months to bury all the dead? In a valley called Hamongog. Ezekiel 39:11.
 
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summerville

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It does not say Julio-Claudians in the text. But that is the connection because Nero was the last of the Julio-Claudians, and ruling at the time of John. Julius Caesar was the first of the series that ended the republic, when he declared himself dictator for life.

Julio-Claudian dynasty - Wikipedia

"The Julio-Claudian dynasty was the first Roman imperial dynasty, consisting of the first five emperorsAugustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero[1]—or the family to which they belonged. They ruled the Roman Empire from its formation under Augustus in 27 BC until AD 68 (95 years), when the last of the line, Nero, committed suicide"


The beast will be King 8, and is of the 7. He is one of them (the Julio-Claudians). Which of the 7 is in the text of Revelation 17:11.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

King 7 is the yet to come king. And when he comes, it says in Revelation 17:10, he must continue a short space. The short space is the 42 months in Revelation 13:4, as the beast, after he (will be) is killed, and is brought back to life.

Belief in reincarnation was fairly common in the first century and people were terrified Nero would come back from the dead and invade with an army of Parthians from across the river. ..Or, that another emperor like Nero who persecuted Jews and Christians would show up... Namely Domitian (ad 81–96), known chiefly for the reign of terror under which prominent members of the Senate lived during his last years

Full name Titus Flavius Domitianus

Revelation doesn't say anything about Julio Claudians.
 
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Douggg

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Galba was king only for a little while and therefore meets the measure of Rev. 17:10.

But Galba did not continue the short space. King 7 becomes king - and must continue a short space.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Galba was insignificant when compared to the Julio-Claudians.

"His physical weakness and general apathy led to him being dominated by favorites. Unable to gain popularity with the people or maintain the support of the Praetorian Guard, Galba was murdered by Otho, who then became emperor."

From Wikepedia. Galba - Wikipedia
 
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HTacianas

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Nero was the last of the Julio-Claudian family leaders. The 7 kings are all related. Of the same family. The Julio-Claudians. Julius Caesar was the first of the Julio-Claudians, but was not an emperor, but dictator for life. Thus is not in the list of emperors.

Julio-Claudian dynasty - Wikipedia

"The Julio-Claudian dynasty was the first Roman imperial dynasty, consisting of the first five emperorsAugustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero[1]—or the family to which they belonged. They ruled the Roman Empire from its formation under Augustus in 27 BC until AD 68 (95 years), when the last of the line, Nero, committed suicide"

The 7 kings of Revelation 17:10 are:

1. Julius Caesar (dictator for life)

2. Augustus (1st emperor)

3. Tiberius (2nd emperor)

4. Caligula (3rd emperor)

5. Claudius (4th emperor)

6. Nero (5th emperor)

7. The end times little horn person (forthcoming leader of the EU)

Why should we not assume that the seventh king was Galba?
 
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Douggg

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..Or, that another emperor like Nero who persecuted Jews and Christians would show up... Namely Domitian (ad 81–96), known chiefly for the reign of terror under which prominent members of the Senate lived during his last years

Full name Titus Flavius Domitianus

Revelation doesn't say anything about Julio Claudians.
Them living in John's day would have certainly been aware of the Julio-Claudian Caesar family as the series of leaders of Rome.

Domitian was of a different dynasty of Rome's leaders - the Flavians. He was the last of the Flavian dynasty.
 
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Douggg

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Why should we not assume that the seventh king was Galba?
He was not of the Julio-Claudian Caesar family.

The beast, king 8, is of the 7. The 7 kings are related. And the last one will become the beast.
 
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summerville

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@summerville

Another reason that Gog/Magog has not happened yet is that in Ezekiel 39 seven years after the burial of Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:11-16, there is another event in Ezekiel 39:17-20 - the Armageddon event. It corresponds to Revelation 19:17-18.

In Ezekiel 39:21, it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text, having returned to earth (in the future), to rule over the nations.

Ezekiel spent his life in Babylonia.. Why do you think Jesus is speaking?

Why do you suppose Jesus or John of Patmos would speak to the far futurists and abandon the new Christians of the first century? Does that make sense to you?

How did you come to believe that Daniel and Ezekiel and Revelation were written for people thousands of years in the future?
 
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HTacianas

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He was not of the Julio-Claudian Caesar family.

The beast, king 8, is of the 7. The 7 kings are related. And the last one will become the beast.

You are assuming that he must be a Julio Claudian descendant. It becomes circular.
 
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Oberamagau

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Nero was the last of the Julio-Claudian family leaders. The 7 kings are all related. Of the same family. The Julio-Claudians. Julius Caesar was the first of the Julio-Claudians, but was not an emperor, but dictator for life. Thus is not in the list of emperors.

Julio-Claudian dynasty - Wikipedia

"The Julio-Claudian dynasty was the first Roman imperial dynasty, consisting of the first five emperorsAugustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero[1]—or the family to which they belonged. They ruled the Roman Empire from its formation under Augustus in 27 BC until AD 68 (95 years), when the last of the line, Nero, committed suicide"

The 7 kings of Revelation 17:10 are:

1. Julius Caesar (dictator for life)

2. Augustus (1st emperor)

3. Tiberius (2nd emperor)

4. Caligula (3rd emperor)

5. Claudius (4th emperor)

6. Nero (5th emperor)

7. The end times little horn person (forthcoming leader of the EU)
Most futurist don't realize that by interpreting the beast of Revelation 17 as you have - a progression of ancient empires anything like this...
1. Julius Caesar (dictator for life)
2. Augustus (1st emperor)
3. Tiberius (2nd emperor)
4. Caligula (3rd emperor)
5. Claudius (4th emperor)
6. Nero (5th emperor)
7. The end times little horn person (forthcoming leader of the EU)
...makes it primarily a Preterist interpretation.

The problem in that interpretation is the 7th king is the beast that was, and is not, and yet is....

And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

How would the EU fit into the seven?

The Rev. 17 beast with 7 heads and ten horns represents people that live in the last days, not millennia ago. It should be easy to see that by looking at the wording and context. Worse than that. I believe it's in error to attributed this to Rome who isn't involved in any beast.

Both the heads and horns are said to be kings. FIVE ARE FALLEN or five 'have fallen' is a mistake. ARE is present, fallen is past! The word ARE is a third person plural present indicative. This passage isn't a union of ancient world empires or people. It's a picture of a complete end-time beast.

There are seven kings, "FIVE FALL" is the correct translation.
www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/rev17.pdf

The interlinear... ...AND KINGS SEVEN ARE THE FIVE FALL

Some interpret them this way...

Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece (who had fallen by John's time.) Some people used the Roman Emperor's listed above by Dougg.

These 'kings' can't be ANCIENT kingdoms because...

"They have received no kingdom as yet," and...

"They receive power as kings one hour with the beast," and...

How can they "have one mind," and "how shall they give their power and strength unto the beast," and...

HOW CAN THEY, "make war with the Lamb," ...

IF SIX OF THEM EXISTED THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN THE PAST!
 
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Josheb

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But Galba did not continue the short space. King 7 becomes king - and must continue a short space.
Yes, he did. He ruled for seven months, which is a "short space," a "little while," (Gk.: "oligon"). That is what would have been understood by first century Christiaan readers.

1) I have already posted this information.
2) You are ignoring this information.
3) You are denying this information.
4) You are not adding anything new to the discussion.
5) You are not adding anything new to the discussion of your own op.

6) You are therefore wasting yours, mine, and everyone else's time and effort.

If you don't want me point out these things then don't do them.
Galba was insignificant when compared to the Julio-Claudians.
So what? You have not proved Julio-Claudianism is remotely relevant. The text of Revelation 17:10 makes no such statement. You are adding to the text. You are adding to a text that curses anyone who adds to the text. Galba meets the standard of what scripture states. There is no reason to look elsewhere, especially if we have to make things up to apply.

1) I have already posted this information.
2) You are ignoring this information.
3) You are denying this information.
4) You are not adding anything new to the discussion.
5) You are not adding anything new to the discussion of your own op.

6) You are therefore wasting yours, mine, and everyone else's time and effort.

If you don't want me point out these things then don't do them.
"His physical weakness and general apathy led to him being dominated by favorites. Unable to gain popularity with the people or maintain the support of the Praetorian Guard, Galba was murdered by Otho, who then became emperor."

From Wikepedia. Galba - Wikipedia
Yep. He was king for a short space, a little while. You are proving my position and undermining your own op.

Now deal with the facts of scripture and the facts of history. Galba meets the measure of the Revelation text (and he does so in more than one way). Do not ignore the information. Do not denying the information. Do not add to the text of scripture things it does not state.

Further the discussion. Stop wasting my time and yours.

Question your sources as much as you question my posts.
 
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Douggg

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Ezekiel spent his life in Babylonia.. Why do you think Jesus is speaking?
Jesus, before being born to Mary, was the Lord of Heaven - God. 1Corinthians15:47.

The prophecy in Ezekiel 38-39, God gave to Ezekiel about the future to take place in the latter days, latter years.

In Ezekiel 39:21, after the judgment on the heathen in Ezekiel 39:17-18, the Lord of Heaven says...

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

In Psalms 110, it says, referring to Jesus, that he will judge the heathen, leaving a bunch of dead bodies - please look at Ezekiel 39:17-20.

4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

In that day, in Ezekiel 39:22 above, it says the house of Israel will know that I (Jesus) am their Lord their God, and forward. Right know, would you not agree that the Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Lord their God ?

So it is still future. When during the great tribulation forthcoming, the Jews will come to believe in Jesus and receive Salvation. Which Revelation 12:10 is talking about them...

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
 
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Douggg

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DavidPT

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As soon as you throw in the EU you ankle deep in the Scofield heresy and Hal Lindsey..

Consider this:

Daniel 11 in Context - Livius

Daniel 11 in Context - Livius

At the end of that article, the author ends with this, apparently in regards to verses 33-45.


This is the moment where the prophecy "goes astray". The Ptolemaic king never came to Judaea, nor did Antiochus intervene and fight against the Maccabees, or conquer Egypt, Libya, and Nubia. Instead, Antiochus went to Armenia, Babylonia, and Susa.
Daniel 11 in Context - Livius


How does any of this help to explain verses 33-45? It's almost as if this author felt he was making a good case throughout Daniel 11, then verses 33-45 throwing a monkeywrench into it in the end.
 
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