Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

JLB777 said:

Bill the principle of faith, found in Romans 10:10, is our obedient response to the Gospel command to repent.


Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience, or it remains dormant, inactive, or as James says, dead as a body without the Spirit is dead, being lifeless.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


The “work” that James refers to in this context, is the action of obedience.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

The “work” by which Abraham was justified, was he responded to God in obedience, to offer his son Issac on the altar.


Not the works of the law.
Not good works
Not work that earns a wage

But the obedience of faith.

This is what faith, (that we receive from God, when He speaks to us directly or indirectly through one He sends to preach the Gospel), requires in order to be complete and activated to function and produce the intended divine result.


Paul calls this principle or law, the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


To be continued...


JLB

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Dear JLB:

First, I noticed another poster had put restrictions within this other thread that you posted. Please feel free to discuss your views openly here in this thread without any restrictions. While I may or may not agree with them, you are free to express your views according to the Bible. Second, I see "obedience to the faith" as both submitting to God's grace (Justification), and then the Process of Sanctification (after we are saved by God's grace). Sanctification is living holy by the power of God working in us. Both Justification, and Sanctification are works of God that are synergistic (i.e. a cooperation between GOD and man). I believe both Justification and Sanctification are a part of God's plan of salvation.

Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and had risen again three days later on your behalf, and accepting Jesus as your Savior, and seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer. This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2) (For seeking forgiveness of one's sins verses: Romans 10:13, Hebrews 4:16, and Luke 18:9-14).

Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work (because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

Goodhuman said:

You are saved by no sinning + good works + faith. One can't save you without the other.
When somebody is born again he is not sinning again:

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Born again means when you first time believed. It does not save you.
But you can be saved later, primary by no sinning forever.
Saved christians are very few, saints are extremely very few. And other kind of heavenly creatures are much less.

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I believe we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ for our salvation (Which in most cases will include seeking forgiveness of our sins with the Lord Jesus Christ and believing in His death, burial, and resurrection on our behalf as a part of eternal life), and then by Sanctification (Holy living, good works, putting away sin, etc. by the power of God). I believe we cannot put the cart before the horse (i.e. works before God's grace). We need to be forgiven of our sins before we can walk uprightly with the Lord.

Yes, many turn God's grace into a safety net to sin these days. Jude 1:4 says that there are those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality, but neither can we ignore the necessity of God's grace as the entrance gate to salvation, and as the foundation of our salvation.

JLB777 said:

“Faith alone” is a misnomer.

It’s a man made term, not found in the Bible, other than describing dead faith.


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17


The “works” James refers to is obedience, not the works of the law, not good works, not work that earns a wage, but the corresponding act of obedience to the word from God By which we receive faith.




JLB

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I agree faith without works is dead. I believe these are good works that as described in the Bible or as a part of our faith. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). So yes, I would agree for the most part in what you are saying here. The difference is that I believe these are good works that James is talking about. But they are the good works of the Lord done through the believer. These are works such as preaching the gospel, loving (or supporting) the brethren, helping the poor, etc.; But I believe we must first be obedient to that aspect of the faith that involves Grace first.

createdtoworship said:

Yes I agree, the grateful aspect results in good works. But the scripture speaks of this action happening AT salvation. That is the tricky aspect of it. We are not saved by works, simply because that is the opposite of grace. But we are saved by repentance and faith. Turning from sin to the saviour, namely in the aspect of forsaking idols to the living God. An idol is anything we think about more than God. It could be sports, fitness, sex, money, jobs, hobbies. The stuff we go to bed thinking about, day dream about, and wake up thinking about, that is our idol. If it is God, then Good. But if it's not then we need to constantly forsake that idol in our life. Be anxious for nothing the scripture says. That does not mean we are perfect but it means that we don't 'practice' sin. For example a homosexual who is proud they are homosexual, and believes in Jesus. Well his lifestyle has not reflected his faith, so according to james his faith is invalid. I hope that makes sense.

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Matthew 25:21, Matthew 25:30, John 15:1-6, Titus 1:16, and James 2:24 would suggest that good works (as a part of Sanctification) do play a part in the salvation process; This of course would be after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. No man can forgive His own sin. Not loving Jesus means we are accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Jesus gave His disciples a new commandment to love one another in the same way that He has loved them (John 13:34). This clearly involves doing good deeds of love towards the brethren and it is not just having a lovey dovey feeling for God's people. James talks about truly loving the brethren.

"14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?" (James 2:14-16).

James said this because the brethren (he was writing to) were having respect of persons in showing favoritism to the rich brethren, and yet they were showing no favor to the poor brethren. In fact, they were outright ignored in regards to their needs. They basically said loving words to them, but they did nothing to truly love the poor brethren (See: James 2:1-15).

This was the whole point about faith without works being dead (James 2:17), and how we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

Confusion arises on the true view of Soteriology because people take Paul's words out of context in Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5, Galatians 5:4, and Romans 4:1-4 in light of the whole counsel of God's Word. Clearly we are saved by God's grace and Sanctification. For if we are not being made holy after we are saved by God's grace, then we are on the path to unholiness and or justifying sin in some way.

Remember, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. This means he had to do something or take some form of action or do good in some way (good works) in order to be a part of God's kingdom. In fact, John 5:29 says,

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29).

What is sad is that many have to invent some kind of work around explanation to explain the plain meaning of what this verse above says.

createdtoworship said:

Yes I agree, the grateful aspect results in good works. But the scripture speaks of this action happening AT salvation. That is the tricky aspect of it. We are not saved by works, simply because that is the opposite of grace. But we are saved by repentance and faith. Turning from sin to the saviour, namely in the aspect of forsaking idols to the living God. An idol is anything we think about more than God. It could be sports, fitness, sex, money, jobs, hobbies. The stuff we go to bed thinking about, day dream about, and wake up thinking about, that is our idol. If it is God, then Good. But if it's not then we need to constantly forsake that idol in our life. Be anxious for nothing the scripture says. That does not mean we are perfect but it means that we don't 'practice' sin. For example a homosexual who is proud they are homosexual, and believes in Jesus. Well his lifestyle has not reflected his faith, so according to james his faith is invalid. I hope that makes sense.

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As for idols:

If a believer suggests that works do not play a part in salvation in any way, then I believe it is possible that some may have a passive attitude towards preaching the gospel, helping the poor, loving the brethren, loving their enemies, praying, studying God's Word, etc.; So laziness and untruth would then be their idols. For the Bible clearly teaches that we do need to be fruitful. Jesus said any tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire to be burned (John 15:1-6). Yes, we are saved by God's grace. No doubt about it. Nobody can save themselves by doing good works alone. We need to have our past slate of sin cleansed. But after we are forgiven, we need to obey God. This involves works, and putting away sin. The life of a Christian is not passive, but active. If we are not actively moving to love God and others, then our faith is dead. For even the demons believe and tremble.

crossnote said:

[x] other.
We are saved by Jesus Christ and His Work for us.

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I believe we are saved by the work of Christ (God), too. I believe the Lord saves us both In Justification, and in Sanctification.

JLB777 said:

I like how you think.


The obedience of faith is the principle or law how faith functions to produce the intended divine result.


Faith comes to us when we hear God speak to us.

God spoke to Abraham to offer his son Isaac to Him, on the altar.

Abraham responded in obedience.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


To make my position perfectly clear, so as not to insinuate that we are
“justified by works” in the traditional sense, I’m saying we are justified by faith.

However, faith must have the corresponding action of obedience for it to be activated or “made alive”, in which faith is complete and able to function, in order to produce the intended result that God desired.

In Abraham’s case it was justification.


If we do not obey the “word of faith”, that is to say, the word by which we receive faith, then the faith we have from God remains dormant, or “dead”, as a body without a spirit is dead, being incomplete.


Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:22


Perfect here means complete.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.James 2:26


We are justified by the work or corresponding action of obedience.


Example:


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


God spoke to Noah to build an Ark and Noah obeyed.


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


God spoke to Abraham to get out of his country to a land he would be shown, and Abraham obeyed.



By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. Hebrews 11:30


God spoke to the children of Israel to march around the walls of Jericho for seven days, then blow the trumpet.


They obeyed and received the great victory, by faith.



By faith means: God spoke to someone and they obeyed.




JLB

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First, thank you for the kind words. Second, I fully agree with what you have written here about how there needs to be an obedience to the faith, brother. Great stuff here indeed. Three, although what you write is true and necessary for others to hear, some "Eternal Security Proponents," and or "Sin & Still Be Saved Salvationists" would agree with you that obedience as a part of the faith is even necessary in regards to salvation, but the problem is that they do not agree with the truth of what the Bible says in how that manifests itself. Meaning: What does "obedience to the faith" look like for the believer under the New Covenant (New Testament) today? If you were to include "good works" they would say that you are trying to save yourself by your works. But works are a requirement by the Lord.


Is works a salvation issue?
Jesus appears to imply that this is the case in John 15:1-6.


As we can see here, if we abide in Christ, we will be fruitful (doing good works) for His kingdom. If we are not abiding in Christ (Whereby no works would be present), then we will be cast off branch to be burned in the fire. So the light that we let shine before men in Matthew 5:16 is the good works of the Lord working through us. It is a co-operation (cooperation). What are these good works? What do they look like? Should just do our own thing? Some may think that doing good works is trying to change the laws within politics in the far right. Others may think good works is helping the environment. But is that what God says in His Word on good works? No. Of course, not. Good works would be those things that the Lord tells us to do, like: Preach the gospel (Luke 9:62), teach His commands (Matthew 28:19-20), help the poor (Matthew 25:31-46), love your enemies (Matthew 5:44), love the brethren (meet the brother and sisters basic needs, like food, shelter, and nourish them with the Word of God) (John 13:34) (John 21:17) (James 2:15-16), etc.

Even Paul says that we can deny God by a lack of works in Titus 1:16.

While we do need works as a part of obedience to the faith, I believe that salvation is not "Works Alone Salvationism" (With little to no grace). This was the problem that the Pharisees had or in the "Jews religion" as Paul calls it (Galatians 1:13-14).

We first need to experience God's grace. This is how we are initially and ultimately saved. God's grace is the foundation of our salvation. Applying God's grace to our lives is also a part of the obedience to the faith. It is the first step of faith in coming to the Lord and in seeking His mercy (Romans 10:13), and in accepting Jesus as our Savior (Matthew 11:28-29), and in believing in His death, burial, and resurrection on our behalf for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

In the Parable of the Tax Collector, & the Pharisee: We know that the problem that the Pharisee had was that he was not humbling himself before God like the Tax Collector did in crying out to God in seeking forgiveness of his sins with the Lord (See: Luke 18:9-14). If we mess up on rare occasion, and stumble into a sin (that we did not intend to do), do we go out and do a good work to redeem ourselves? No. We get clean by God's grace and forgiveness. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. King David cried out to God in seeking forgiveness with the Lord in Psalms 51. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

So we need God's grace, and we need to reconcile with the Lord and seek His mercy and forgiveness. This is where salvation starts, and it is the foundation upon which we stand. Jesus, and His grace. This is not a license for immorality by any means. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

For believers cannot abide in unconfessed sin (like hate, lying, lustings, etc.) and think that they can die and make it into God's kingdom. We have to reconcile with the Lord and then strive to walk uprightly by the power of God working in us.

In fact, God's grace is what makes us to love and do good deeds. Remember the harlot who could not stop kissing the feet of Jesus? Why do you think that was? It was because she was forgiven of her many sins by the Lord. She was so thankful that she was forgiven of so much that she could not stop kissing Jesus' feet (See: Luke 7:36-50).

crossnote said:

Yes, His outer work, at Calvary, justifies and His inner work,through the Holy Spirit sanctifies.

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From one perspective, I can see that as true. But from another perspective, I believe the redemptive work of Christ also works on the inside of a believer, as well. It's why the harlot woman could not stop kissing Jesus' feet. She was so thankful that she was forgiven of her past life of sin that it led her to be thankful to the Lord by not ceasing in kissing Jesus' feet (Luke 7:36-50). Paul was able to labor more than his brethren because of the grace of God that was within him (1 Corinthians 15:10). Grace teaches us. Grace is a thing that affects the inside of us. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Dave L said:

Saved people live a holy life by nature. Just as dogs chase cars by nature. We respond to the Holy Spirit in works of love.

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While there is some truth to believers doing good naturally as a part of being born again spiritually, this does not mean their free will is eliminated. Believers can still sin, and or do wrong. In fact, the Bible teaches that we can even fall away from the faith (if we are not careful).

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)


Paul is against Eternal Security. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

This does not mean we cannot do things to build an assurance in our salvation, it just means that God's plan of salvation comes with conditions. As we know, perfect love casts out fear (1 John 4:18). But the way to perfect love (in order to cast out fear) is by keeping His Word (See: 1 John 2:5). Keeping God's Word is not something that is just automatic to us like the autopilot feature on a plane. We have to study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV). Meaning: We must study God's Word and put it on the inside of us. God is not going to force us to read His Word. We have to cooperate with the Lord.

crossnote said:

1.That would be assuming the Holy Spirit wasn't already convicting the women previously of her sin.
2. The grace of God working IN Paul included the Holy Spirit.
3. Grace does teach His children to deny ungodliness, but what is grace apart from Christ's sacrifice and His gracious Spirit convicting us of the truth of the Gospel and our need for its provisions?

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Surely, the Spirit does play a role in our salvation to convict of us sin.
But it is Jesus who forgives us of our sins.


Grace is God having forgiveness on our sins. The gospel (Believing in His death, burial, and resurrection on our behalf for salvation - 1 Corinthians 15:14) also plays an important part in God cleansing us of our sin, in addition to seeking out forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Forgiveness of sins and Redemption through His blood is tied with Grace:


The gospel is tied to God's grace:


Amazing grace... how sweet the sound.

What do you think happened with the tax collector who cried out unto God to have mercy on him in Luke 18:9-14? Surely, God's grace poured over him, and he was forgiven of his sins by Jesus. God's grace. That is what grace is. Forgiveness of sin, and in looking to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection on our behalf for salvation. The good news.

Dave L said:

This only supports your claim if you read free will and salvation by works into them. Grace interprets them in line with the New Covenant.

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No need to read free will into the Bible where it does not belong. The Bible plainly teaches free will and not a forced version of salvation for a lucky few certain individuals. Grace is not Unconditional Election. Grace is God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him, shall not perish, but will have everlasting life (John 3:16).

Grace is believing in Jesus for salvation, or His redemptive blood, and or believing the gospel (See: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and can include accepting Jesus as your Savior, and seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him. Any other forms of God's grace for our salvation is that is not related to this in some way is non-existent.

God forgives us of our sins. That is what God's grace does. We need this grace in order to be initially saved. It is also how we are ultimately saved, as well. Grace is foundational to our faith. If we stumble into sin, we do not do a good work to get clean or forgiven. We go to God's grace. We boldly come before the throne of His grace (Hebrews 4:16). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Jesus] shall be saved (Romans 10:13).

Dave L said:

Where does it teach free will except for under the Law which cannot save?

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I already mentioned a list of verses on this point in post #19 within this thread.

Dave L said:

Quote your favorite.

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The Bible speaks as a cohesive whole.
So the list is sufficient to stand on its own.
You can feel free to address all of them if you like.
Take your time, and address them in bite sized pieces over the span of a few hours, days, weeks, months, years, etc.; Whatever pace you feel comfortable at.
Just know that you have to go beyond what those verses are plainly saying.
If you do try to explain them away, the context should support your claims, as well. I am confident that you will not be able to do this. For I know what these verses plainly say and they line up perfectly with the surrounding context. Reading Unconditional Election into these verses requires a heavy amount of imaginative thinking that is not explicitly stated in these texts.

Side Note:

Calvinism or Reformed Theology stands primarily on misreading a portion of Romans 9 out of context to the end of Romans 9, and the other chapters, and misreading John 6:44 out of its context. Just look at verse 45 (John 6:45). Read the end of Romans 9, and read all the way through to Romans 11. The context is Israel and how we are not saved by the Pharisee religion of Works Alone-ism, but we are first saved by God's grace (for both the Jews and Gentiles).