Were some stories in the Bible not literal history?

JohnClay said:

Actually before the flood the ages are pretty consistently around the age of 900 then only after the flood do they start steadily decreasing. A possible creationist explanation is that their DNA was originally perfect but after the flood the "vapour canopy" was no longer there and so mutations acculumated leading to a shorter lifespan.


So you're saying that maybe 900 years was actually 90 years? Note that some of them have a son at the age of 65.... but that couldn't actually be 6.5 years....

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You are very wise for asking questions like this, and whatever your faith, which makes absolutely no difference to me, these are justified.

So the story of the flood presents many many things and has a whole army of things to support this event did occur.

My first point would be to begin with the known fact that the earth was in an ice age for what length of time is debatable but everyone agrees it is true and ended roughly 10,000 some odd years ago. As we start to picture this very reality and acknowledge the common sense aspect of a shift from one global climate to one drastically different we would see things such as a possible rise on water levels and of course the event horizon of that could definitely cause some sort of flood at the most bare minimum of some acute points even if it wasnt every single square inch of the planet. So at this point in time we can understand the possibility exists for the story of noah in a place and time being based in truth. Now what about archaelogical evidence where is it? Well it wouldnt be on ground level of course it would be under water and many underwater cities streets shorelines and such have been found all over. Even India said they found Krishnas lost city off the coast and i am not a Hindu and escaped from their cults as well but that doesnt mean they totally made up their scriptures and history you know.

Anyways now we get into another huge accepted fact. Cultures and religions all over the world have an identical story of a flood. I cite the epic of gilgamesh for a non biblical source. witness testimony alone is enough to convict in a court of law make your own determinations.

Now if this is true then there are all kinds of other ramifications that must be accounted for so lets go there why stop here.

The life span how do we account for the lifespan... Like you so perceptively pointed out the lfiespans are all consistent but appear to flip at one point in time and change what could that point of time be? Why why maybe the flood.... Looks like your graph shows noah to be the last one with a super long life span seems like something happened about that time.

Lets go further scientists believe that before this flood the atmosphere was obviously different with an obvious increase in carbon levels this accounts for 3 things right off the top. Lifespan could be lengthened as a result of the atmosphere, creatures would be larger, hence the tales of giants, also it would account for higher radio carbon dating showing super high numbers that dont make sense today because we are not useing the same measurement as would have existed in that atmosphere.

Nothing mystical mumbo jumbo about it all very plausable. What are your thoughts?

Carl Emerson said:

While aware of the dangers of roaming near the mouth of a cynic here goes...

My late cousin Hadden Lowrey was an explorer and top photographer. He was asked to accompany Neil Armstrong on an expedition by helicopter to Ararat. He had researched writings from previous explorers and there were consistent claims of sightings at 14000 feet. They had to choose a time when the snow was at a high level, this is a rather rare weather event but they timed it right. I have seen the video footage of some of the remains in an ice wall. Most of the ark was carried down in a glacier and that is why white oak has been found a long way further down. Why this is not more well known I have no clue. I run the risk of sounding like a complete idiot but I cant deny what I have seen.

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I can support this i went to a church where i had christian friends that had first hand experience with Ron Wyatt that has documented the ark for everyone to see. People thought he discovered it but he did not the Israelies have known about it for a long time and he heard it from Jewish newspapers then went to investigate himself. I myself did not meet Ron but looked in the eyes of people that shook his hand and they believed he was sincere and it was all legit.

Nowadays this isn't such a big deal although i have absolutely no idea why. Rock solid physical evidence i can show anyone that the old testament is true and happened how it said it did, it is no secret to the Jews Solomon and everybody knew about it. Of course i dont go around screaming this but maybe i should if anyone is interested there is a ton of evidence for: Noahs Ark, Exodus, Red sea crossing, Mt Sinai, Sadam and Gomorrah. My personal experience.

No it was a private effort by Armstrong.

Matthew86 said:

I can support this i went to a church where i had christian friends that had first hand experience with Ron Wyatt that has documented the ark for everyone to see.

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Answers in Genesis doesn't think so: Has the Ark of the Covenant Been Found?

Carl Emerson said:

No it was a private effort by Armstrong.

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Any documentation at all?

I assume the OP is asking this question to people who don't believe in inerrancy. If you look at non-evangelical Biblical scholarship and history, the answer seems to be that the Bible before that period of the kings is substantially non-historical.

This doesn't mean that Abraham and Moses never existed. Legends often have a basis in fact. God may well have called someone out of Ur, and some of Israel quite likely came from people who had been slaves in Egypt.

As far as I can tell, the stories before Abraham are reinterpreted stories from the surrounding culture. I wouldn't think they are historical. From Abraham, there may be some basis, but I wouldn't take the Biblical stories as straight history. In particular all of Israel wasn't in Egypt, nor do historians accept the account of the Exodus as described -- though as I said, that doesn't deny that some may well have escaped from slavery in Egypt. (The current view is that Israel largely moved in the cities from the highlands peacefully.)

There's a range of opinions for the period of the kings. Some archaeologists think the whole thing is fiction. David never existed. That seems to be going way too far. I wouldn't guarantee the accuracy of every reign described in 1 and 2 Kings, but the general impression seems plausible, and I'm pretty sure David existed (though some of the stories about him are likely legend).

JohnClay said:

For Christians:

What stories in the Bible didn't literally happen as they were described?

e.g. the talking snake, the global Flood, the command in Deut 20 to kill all of the inhabitants of the cities in the promised land...

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This is a very very good question, and clearly shows a strong level of discernment on your part.

No one ever told me the Bible is a collection of books by multiple authors over the course of thousands of years. So the first thing to seperate out is some books are completely meant to be literal like Chronicles, while others are meant to be artistic like psalms, and of course the wise one liners of proverbs. Some books as well as specific parts inside of some books are purely meant to be symbolic or an allegory. There are multiple reasons to support the common sense of this. The historical record of language shows the emphasis on signs ans symbols to convey a dense meaning in one small imagine, egyptian hieroglyphs for an example. You we have to gather the full context of understanding that people have been reading the old testament for at least 3000 years, i cite Deuteronomy in that every 7 years the king or leader is to recite the entire law to the people. So 3000 years ago you didn't have computer scientists, one could postulate that iqs would be lower from less mental stimulation and less complex thinking patterns, and it kind of makes sense to think about communicating with pictures like a childrens book....

So to answer you have to look at the context, do not ever ever ever let someone quote 1 verse to you and you do not read the chapter or the book for the context and sub text. Genesis is very likely highly allegorical although of course some things seem very accurate as they are presented in itself later on in the book. I would also add Genesis would be the oldest book ever conceived ofin history and no one could adequately date it because the story is pre flood but the writings are post flood. Now the closer you get to modern times it makes sense you have less of that kind of thing, yet there is another side to the coin.

If you want to exhaust a topic, and get the most value for the reader, you must pose teachings in multiple formats, from multiple angles and points of view to try and reach a fullness of understanding. Just as i can tell you a story about billy the good little bee the buzzed around spreading God's nectar around the world, well that can mean a lot of things, are you a good little bee? Lol see my point i don't have to speak this way or that way we are all individuals an think and process differently i would be questionative if the Bible read like you would imagine a book of mormon reading. I rest my case.

Tinker Grey said:

Answers in Genesis doesn't think so: Has the Ark of the Covenant Been Found?

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I can show you videos i dont care anything about words when there is physical hard evidence you can travel to and feel with your hands.

Tinker Grey said:

Any documentation at all?

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Yes I have a video presentation that he did.

Tinker Grey said:

Answers in Genesis doesn't think so: Has the Ark of the Covenant Been Found?

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And why stop with the ark there is the exodus from egypt evidence that they were in egypt to begin with, evidence of the read sea crossing, evidence of sodom and gomorow and i htink it was tyre and sidon too but im not positive on those 2. This is well known stuff man its not a magic mystery on anything we could take a trip and put our hands on these places right now today no mumbo jumbo internet articles needed lol.

Carl Emerson said:

Yes I have a video presentation that he did.

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I would like to see that video just to compare with what i have heard and seen to check for consistency if it is on youtube or something that would be perfect.

hedrick said:

I assume the OP is asking this question to people who don't believe in inerrancy. If you look at non-evangelical Biblical scholarship and history, the answer seems to be that the Bible before that period of the kings is substantially non-historical.

This doesn't mean that Abraham and Moses never existed. Legends often have a basis in fact. God may well have called someone out of Ur, and some of Israel quite likely came from people who had been slaves in Egypt.

As far as I can tell, the stories before Abraham are reinterpreted stories from the surrounding culture. I wouldn't think they are historical. From Abraham, there may be some basis, but I wouldn't take the Biblical stories as straight history. In particular all of Israel wasn't in Egypt, nor do historians accept the account of the Exodus as described -- though as I said, that doesn't deny that some may well have escaped from slavery in Egypt. (The current view is that Israel largely moved in the cities from the highlands peacefully.)

There's a range of opinions for the period of the kings. Some archaeologists think the whole thing is fiction. David never existed. That seems to be going way too far. I wouldn't guarantee the accuracy of every reign described in 1 and 2 Kings, but the general impression seems plausible, and I'm pretty sure David existed (though some of the stories about him are likely legend).

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Brother i would quote psalms 12:6-7

The beloved David said
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

i would say that when you smelt metal the slag or the impurities rise to the top and you scoop it away leaving pure metal. I would consider that if you believe in your Bible.

Tinker Grey said:

Answers in Genesis doesn't think so: Has the Ark of the Covenant Been Found?

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Wait i am sorry misread that i thought it was noahs ark.

The ark of the covenant. Ron Wyatt claims that he saw the ark of the covenanti dont like mentioning it because he has no evidence for it other than crazy stories of angels well he does have a digging permit from Israel i will give him that, but no proof its a goof to me.

The rest however he documents 100% absolutely beyond any single persons doubt in the world. happy to share it if you want.

Matthew86 said:

Wait i am sorry misread that i thought it was noahs ark.

The ark of the covenant. Ron Wyatt claims that he saw the ark of the covenanti dont like mentioning it because he has no evidence for it other than crazy stories of angels well he does have a digging permit from Israel i will give him that, but no proof its a goof to me.

The rest however he documents 100% absolutely beyond any single persons doubt in the world. happy to share it if you want.

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If you read the link, they document why they think everything he allegedly found was a fraud, including Noah's Ark. You'll have to follow other links in that article.

Tinker Grey said:

If you read the link, they document why they think everything he allegedly found was a fraud, including Noah's Ark. You'll have to follow other links in that article.

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I can definitley say this story is selective and partial. I want to be clear Ron Wyatt did not discover anything the only reason i can guess is that he is a christian and it then makes everything just kind of look silly with his ark of the covenant story and angels appearing and crying and all that. However what i am talking about is verified independently over and over and over and like i said Israel has known about this forever practically. This is not new news look at the date on that article 1999.

I have watched about 10 hours of footage i would say by at least 4 different sources indepenant of time space and religion. So we aren't talking about some christian conspiracy or anything like that messianics christians jews probably muslims too but i dont know these are all accepted facts to those that know this stuff. Again if you care to look i will share but for some reason no one ever looks at my evidence they just brush it off so im not wasting the time to gather sources unless someone actually cares.

Carl Emerson said:

While aware of the dangers of roaming near the mouth of a cynic here goes...I run the risk of sounding like a complete idiot but I cant deny what I have seen.

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Oh dear. You completely disarmed me by saying that.

Leopards don't change that fast...

JohnClay said:

@SkyWriting
BTW what about the genealogies in Genesis 5 where people sometimes lived to 900+ years? Do you believe that really happened? If not, what does it mean?

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Genesis is thought to have been written during the Babylonian exile. Babylonian kings, upon death, were venerated as having lived for ridiculous amounts of years, on the order of 50,000. The Jewish patriarchs were venerated in the same way, but presumably were not allowed to match the lifespans of their Babylonian superiors.

Nihilist Virus said:

Genesis is thought to have been written during the Babylonian exile. Babylonian kings, upon death, were venerated as having lived for ridiculous amounts of years, on the order of 50,000. The Jewish patriarchs were venerated in the same way, but presumably were not allowed to match the lifespans of their Babylonian superiors.

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I have never seen support of that, quite obviously Genesis is a retelling of an ancient story. Evidence would suggest the garden of eden would be the garden of atun the Pharoah in Egypt that became a mono theist and then was kicked out of egypt and they scribbled him out and descercated all the symbols of him. Sounds like a match to me, and of course where is the greatest wonder of the world right in the heart of egypt.