Head of GOARCH says that non-Orthodox spouses may receive communion

Euodius

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Within the last two years the EP has made sudden decisions or actions without much transparency in the lead up to the decisions, eg:
  • The EP's new First Without Equals teaching
  • The EP considered the KP non canonical and then very suddenly recognized the KP hierarch as canonical and set up the OCU
  • The EP suddenly announced that it was dissolving its Russian Exarchate of Western Europe and never gave an explanation for why, AFAIK.
  • The financial dealings with St Nicholas shrine have been obscure for a long time.
  • The EP announced recently that clergy can remarry.

So the Abp.'s announcement would not be out of keeping as far as a style of sudden decisions or canonicity goes. The fact that it's sudden or non canonical unfortunately does not disprove its occurrence considering the recent pattern of decision making.

Don't forget that Open Communion is being pushed in Chicago by the Metropolitan.
 
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rusmeister

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“The wisest thing in the world is to cry out before you are hurt. It is no good to cry out after you are hurt; especially after you are mortally hurt. People talk about the impatience of the laity; but sound Church historians know that most schisms have been possible because men moved too late. It is often essential to resist a schism before it exists. It is no answer to say, with a distant optimism, that the schism is only in the air. A blow from a hatchet can only be parried while it is in the air.”
A slight modification of GK’s original text.

I take that to mean that an immediate statement ought to be demanded, with the priviso that a failure to deny it (non-action) will be taken to mean that he does mean what he has been charged with, which should result in a call to the Synod for his deposal. A refusal to respond and clarify is something only a wicked man who means harm to the Church would do. We are prepared to grant that he was misunderstood and has been falsely/mistakenly charged (and to respond appropriately to THAT scenario), but let him speak, and speak clearly, without evasion.

That is the only way I see to prevent schism.
 
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buzuxi02

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Over 25 years ago when I was about 19 I asked a buddy of mind, (we grew up as altar boys) what went on at the latest GOA clergy laity conference. He has family that are chanters and high ranking choir members of the archdiocese and woukd attend. He responded by saying something to the effects, " you know the Greek restaurant owners were debating among themselves whether heterodox spouses should receive communion", (as many of their kids were marrying non-Orthodox). He explained they let them argue amongst themselves as they are clueless on ecclesiology. Remember this was over 25 years ago. So yeah some layman probably asked him something about it and the AB probably said something that at the very least seemed to sound like sanctioning open communion.
 
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Platina

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Well, that's something, but, hey, the Vatican hides behind official documents all the time to deny true rumors about their practice.
And in any case, the reports aren't claiming a directive has been issued to priests, so it doesn't matter that one hasn't been.
 
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Euodius

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Now this story, I've heard from reliable people, is not true.
Well, I hope so. But again, this was the case with the RCC - rumors had more reality to them than what anyone wanted to believe and the rumors proved themselves.
 
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Euodius

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“The wisest thing in the world is to cry out before you are hurt. It is no good to cry out after you are hurt; especially after you are mortally hurt. People talk about the impatience of the laity; but sound Church historians know that most schisms have been possible because men moved too late. It is often essential to resist a schism before it exists. It is no answer to say, with a distant optimism, that the schism is only in the air. A blow from a hatchet can only be parried while it is in the air.”
A slight modification of GK’s original text.

I take that to mean that an immediate statement ought to be demanded, with the priviso that a failure to deny it (non-action) will be taken to mean that he does mean what he has been charged with, which should result in a call to the Synod for his deposal. A refusal to respond and clarify is something only a wicked man who means harm to the Church would do. We are prepared to grant that he was misunderstood and has been falsely/mistakenly charged (and to respond appropriately to THAT scenario), but let him speak, and speak clearly, without evasion.

That is the only way I see to prevent schism.

It is unfortunate that a very visible tyranny of silence prevails.
 
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archer75

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“The wisest thing in the world is to cry out before you are hurt. It is no good to cry out after you are hurt; especially after you are mortally hurt. People talk about the impatience of the laity; but sound Church historians know that most schisms have been possible because men moved too late. It is often essential to resist a schism before it exists. It is no answer to say, with a distant optimism, that the schism is only in the air. A blow from a hatchet can only be parried while it is in the air.”
A slight modification of GK’s original text.

I take that to mean that an immediate statement ought to be demanded, with the priviso that a failure to deny it (non-action) will be taken to mean that he does mean what he has been charged with, which should result in a call to the Synod for his deposal. A refusal to respond and clarify is something only a wicked man who means harm to the Church would do. We are prepared to grant that he was misunderstood and has been falsely/mistakenly charged (and to respond appropriately to THAT scenario), but let him speak, and speak clearly, without evasion.

That is the only way I see to prevent schism.
I see what you mean, I wonder who should be expected / allowed to demand this of a hierarch, and whether the same demands can be made of all hierarchs.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I see what you mean, I wonder who should be expected / allowed to demand this of a hierarch, and whether the same demands can be made of all hierarchs.

it's the brother bishops' job to make any demand on another canonical bishop. the rest of us take it up the chain of command if it causes scandal.
 
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archer75

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it's the brother bishops' job to make any demand on another canonical bishop. the rest of us take it up the chain of command if it causes scandal.
Well, considering that (as far as I can tell) in this instance there's no reason to think he actually said this, seems even worrying about it is premature.
 
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rakovsky

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Well, considering that (as far as I can tell) in this instance there's no reason to think he actually said this, seems even worrying about it is premature.
The 4 self-identified named witnesses who were in the audience of L100 who said that they heard him say this are a reason to think that he said this.
 
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archer75

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The 4 self-identified named witnesses who were in the audience of L100 who said that they heard him say this are a reason to think that he said this.
I don't think four people with no evidence other than themselves is a reason to go begging our bishops to hold this bishop to account for this.

Why on earth would any Orthodox bishop push for this? He could just ask to be laicized, right?
 
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rusmeister

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I don't think four people with no evidence other than themselves is a reason to go begging our bishops to hold this bishop to account for this.

Why on earth would any Orthodox bishop push for this? He could just ask to be laicized, right?

Heresy happens when a believer inside the Church (those outside of it cannot be guilty of this) introduces and teaches a novel teaching that denies or contradicts that which has always been taught as true, and the heresiarch generally honestly believes his novelty to be right and true. Thus, heretics do not recuse themselves but rather seek to expand their teaching.
 
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rusmeister

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it's the brother bishops' job to make any demand on another canonical bishop. the rest of us take it up the chain of command if it causes scandal.
Agreed, but (assuming that the issue has been fleshed out and the foreign bishop is agreed to be truly in the wrong) you could find that your own priest or bishop fails to do so out of fear or other excuse. The other jurisdiction begins following their shepherd down this new path, and schism, formally acknowledged or not, becomes de facto.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Well, considering that (as far as I can tell) in this instance there's no reason to think he actually said this, seems even worrying about it is premature.

I don't think it's premature to worry about it, because folks who were there did say that this was said. my point is that we should pray, and let the bishops do what bishops are charged by God to do.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Agreed, but (assuming that the issue has been fleshed out and the foreign bishop is agreed to be truly in the wrong) you could find that your own priest or bishop fails to do so out of fear or other excuse. The other jurisdiction begins following their shepherd down this new path, and schism, formally acknowledged or not, becomes de facto.

that assumes the Holy Spirit isn't at work. He is. He can and will find someone to preserve the truth. that's why we pray and try to remain vigilant, so that we know what bishops to follow.

plus, there is no de facto schism without an actual break in communion. even after Nicaea, Arians and Orthodox were still debating whether or not the Son is uncreated and coming together at the Chalice.
 
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Euodius

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that assumes the Holy Spirit isn't at work. He is. He can and will find someone to preserve the truth. that's why we pray and try to remain vigilant, so that we know what bishops to follow.

plus, there is no de facto schism without an actual break in communion. even after Nicaea, Arians and Orthodox were still debating whether or not the Son is uncreated and coming together at the Chalice.

As much he is at work, so did incidences like the Great Schism occur and half the Christian world was geographically forced to be under the wrong bishops and that half declined over the centuries as the bishops continually failed to uphold the truth.
 
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rakovsky

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I don't think four people with no evidence other than themselves is a reason to go begging our bishops to hold this bishop to account for this.
I heard that there are GOARCH parishes in parts of the US that are directly under Abp. Elpidophoros. If you were a priest in one of those parishes, you might want to contact him for clarity on the issue.

4+ witnesses at L100 reporting the same testimony + silence from the leadership in light of the publications on well known EO media + his October statement + the recent instruction from Met. Nathanael in Chicago + the background of the Thyateira Confession and EO-OO spousal intercommunion in Africa + the recent RC movement on RC-Protestant spousal intercommunion + the pattern of other recent breakthrough or uncanonical sudden decisions by the EP is good evidence that he said this, ie. more likely than not this is what he announced.
 
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archer75

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Heresy happens when a believer inside the Church (those outside of it cannot be guilty of this) introduces and teaches a novel teaching that denies or contradicts that which has always been taught as true, and the heresiarch generally honestly believes his novelty to be right and true. Thus, heretics do not recuse themselves but rather seek to expand their teaching.
Fair enough, but I'm going on record saying this (everyone can feel free to call me out if this turns out to be wrong):

  • The way this is presented reeks of "fake news." The claim that an outrageous statement was made by a hierarch is presented, without quotes, as fact. Then, at the end of the article, the author includes a quote, pretty unremarkable, about embracing people, which certainly doesn't sound like it means anything about communing the non-Orthodox. This is strong evidence in favor of the notion that the author knows this is a lie.
  • The notion that four people claim to have heard this is unconvincing.
  • GOARCH says they have not been told to do any such thing (commune the non-Orthodox)
  • Let's imagine for the moment that it's not EXACTLY a lie, that the witnesses are sincere. What might the archbishop have said? Maybe something like "Sometimes in our temples there is prejudice against heterodox spouses, but this is a poor attitude that we should struggle against. Heterodox spouses are made in the image of God as we are, and although they do not participate in our sacramental life, we should recall that they are, in a sense, joined to our sacramental life by receiving the blessing of the Church through the marriage rite. So we should welcome them all the more into our homes and families and recall that our Christian witness, rather than frowning and gossip, is a way we can pray for God to work in our lives and in theirs." It's conceivable that a person half-attending could reconstruct this in his head and think "I think he said to commune the heterodox!!!"
  • That said, I think my first point is the way this is actually going to go. What the scandal is, exactly, and why scandal should only be seen in the words and actions of Greeks (you didn't say this, but that notion is floating around lately), is utterly unclear. Why a hierarch should be bothered to press another hierarch for "clarification" every time the Pappas Post decides to publish a hate-baiting article is beyond me.
  • Another thing: "Archbishop Elpidophoros of America, head of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, declared in a public forum that Christians who have been married in the Orthodox Church but are not Greek Orthodox themselves, may receive Holy Communion." Look at the wording. Is it POSSIBLE that he said "Hey, a lot of Greeks these days are marrying people from a Russian, American, or other jurisdiction. They aren't Greek, but they sure are Orthodox! Remember that this isn't a ethnic church or a secret club for Greeks. They are included in the sacramental life of the Church in exactly the same way as those of us who are Greek: they go to confession and they approach the Chalice when they have blessing to do so, etc. That they've married into the Greek Orthodox Church doesn't make them less Orthodox than anyone else." And then the headline looks like a misunderstanding, and the whole thing was deliberately obscured so as to cause YET ANOTHER ugly blip in the newsfeeds of people who want to hate Greeks.
 
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archer75

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I heard that there are GOARCH parishes in parts of the US that are directly under Abp. Elpidophoros. If you were a priest in one of those parishes, you might want to contact him for clarity on the issue.

4+ witnesses at L100 reporting the same testimony + silence from the leadership in light of the publications on well known EO media + his October statement + the recent instruction from Met. Nathanael in Chicago + the background of the Thyateira Confession and EO-OO spousal intercommunion in Africa + the recent RC movement on RC-Protestant spousal intercommunion + the pattern of other recent breakthrough or uncanonical sudden decisions by the EP is good evidence that he said this, ie. more likely than not this is what he announced.
I hear you, rakovsky, but I'm still not convinced. No need to argue, as it's not, in the end, a matter of opinion. To me the whole thing reads as I've described above.

We'll see. We can always revisit this thread when the final word on this comes out.
 
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