"Christian" mysticism is not Christian, is it?

"Christian" mysticism is not Christian, is it?

  • Sure it is!

    Votes: 13 52.0%
  • No, it's more of Eastern religion

    Votes: 8 32.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 16.0%

  • Total voters
    25

zoidar

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I'm not familiar with Johnston or Rast, so for now I'll have to take your word for it. When I think of mystical Christianity I think of contemplative prayer, the Desert Christians of the 3rd century, Gregory of Nyssa, St. John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, Catherine of Sienna, and a host of others. I don't necessarily see the mystical tradition as contrary to the dogmatic tradition. I can see how some expressions of it may seem to be, and maybe some are. But, it seems hasty to cast it all aside as heretical (if that's what you mean by an "upside down view of the gospel").

What to check when people are mystics is what meaning they put in the cross. Do they say Jesus bore our sins? And what do they mean when they say sin. A friend of mine who is a mystic means sin is the same as suffering. You see how wrong this can get?

Mystics generally talks more about our transformation than the person of Jesus. Sin seems to be the state of man, which will be conquered by a new state attained by spiritual practice. It's has not much to do with the cross.

Johnston says we are to let go of all attachments ... but we Christians should be very attached to Jesus Christ. It's through the love of the person of Jesus we can be less attached to all the hassel in this world.
 
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PeterJames0510

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Sometimes when a loved one has passed on and some years have past, we might say, "They would be proud of me if they only knew ... xyz" or "What would Mom do?" or other such sentiments?

It's true that when we pick up the Bible, it's not going to tell us that Mary Sue is who we are supposed to marry and we should go work for IBM or go be a missionary in Honduras and we should live at 567 East Street in Wannabee City, USA.

But it's not like we're left without the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth and the right path. We saturate our mind with the Scriptures and the Word of God and when it comes time to answer these life questions, we can say "Hmmm. If Jesus were here, what would He tell me to do?" We can then take our scriptural knowledge and apply to the situation.

Or something else; our mind can often play games on us and *prompt* us to do some sort of action and then give us rationale behind such a prompting. But, so can the Holy Spirit. He may prompt us to do or say certain things, but we don't know whether or not it is Him or it is our mind playing tricks on us.

Again, with good scriptural grounding - we can discern when the Holy Spirit is prompting us and when it's just my thoughts and actions.

In either of the two scenarios above, we have an example of experiential Christianity without it being mystical. Revelation: it's closed today. Illumination: yes, absolutely.
 
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dms1972

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I'm starting this thread to make us aware of (as I see it) the danger of mysticism. If you are a mystic and saved, I would say you fully haven't grasped what mysticism is. True mystics have an upside down view of the gospel. Now probably there is someone here getting angry with me, but don't. Give your view and we can discuss this like friends.

Christ love,
Peter

Could you please explain what you mean by 'mysticism', and in what way 'true mystics' have an 'upside down view of the Gospel', otherwise there is really no point replying as not knowing what you are wanting to discuss precisely.
 
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dms1972

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I'll attempt a reply having seen some of the discussion mention the mystic notion of ascent.

I think the ascent (the soul's ascent to God) aspect of mysticism can be problematic if that is made to be the whole of spirituality. In Christianity, the Son of God comes down to reascend, we don't ascend up to God by ourselves. First there is the Divine condescension (Christ's Incarnation, his being born of a virgin, laid in a manger etc.) The ascent may be thought of as an aspect of spiritual pilgrimage, but not the whole of it, and I wonder if there isn't more than one valley and one summit in christian pilgrimage?
 
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zoidar

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1 Cor 2:1
And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, 4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.​

Since the supernatural "Power of God" IS mysticism, I would suggest you are incorrect in your assessment.

The supernatural power of God has nothing to do with mysticism from my understanding.
 
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zoidar

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Could you please explain what you mean by 'mysticism', and in what way 'true mystics' have an 'upside down view of the Gospel', otherwise there is really no point replying as not knowing what you are wanting to discuss precisely.

#13
"I have read William Johnston who was a jesuit mystic, and listened to on youtube to a benedictine mystic David Steindl Rast. Also I know about Merton and a few others.

As someone pointed out there is variety what we mean by mysticism. W Johnston descrices how we leave all forms of God to know God within ourselves. He uses a language that may confuse those who aren't experienced of New age concepts. According to Johnston we are to leave all attachments to God and experience God in the unknown. Johnston means Jesus died on the cross so we can find God within ourselves. It's not about Jesus taking the sins of the world on himself, but so we become one with God, or actually be God. He says we have to leave all concepts/images of God to know God.

Here are some quotes from him:

"Contemplation removes the "roots" of sin."

"The aim of contemplation is, then, to return to the state of original justice, before sin, all the faculties of man were united and fixed on God in perfect union with Him"

"And not only is God the being of all things, He is also our being."


The mysticism of the cloud of unknowing - William Johnston"

#21
"What to check when people are mystics is what meaning they put in the cross. Do they say Jesus bore our sins? And what do they mean when they say sin. A friend of mine who is a mystic means sin is the same as suffering. You see how wrong this can get?

Mystics generally talks more about our transformation than the person of Jesus. Sin seems to be the state of man, which will be conquered by a new state attained by spiritual practice. It's has not much to do with the cross.

Johnston says we are to let go of all attachments ... but we Christians should be very attached to Jesus Christ. It's through the love of the person of Jesus we can be less attached to all the hassel in this world."
 
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Halbhh

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The supernatural power of God has nothing to do with mysticism from my understanding.
It's the normal everyday most common situation in every thread that people use the same word with different meanings -- so that the people are talking about different things -- without realizing it.

The word 'mystical' is actually pretty broad, so that even after you try to define it better, you will not be able to make an blanket statement that all believers in Christ risen who believe they are saved only by Grace alone through faith will agree to.

Post #10 is a good example!

You can very easily find mystics that get things wrong, but others can very easily point to Christian mystics that are very different, and seem to get things right. It's just too broad a category word for blanket conclusions.

It's almost like 'sighted' -- meaning those with eyes. Being sighted doesn't mean one will see accurately, and also doesn't mean one will see inaccurately. No blanket statement available.

You might use 'mysticism' to really mean some paganism (even instances that are atheism), but someone else might use the word 'mysticism' to mean something even as simple as just prayerful or meditative on God.
 
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dms1972

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#13
"I have read William Johnston who was a jesuit mystic, and listened to on youtube to a benedictine mystic David Steindl Rast. Also I know about Merton and a few others.

As someone pointed out there is variety what we mean by mysticism. W Johnston descrices how we leave all forms of God to know God within ourselves. He uses a language that may confuse those who aren't experienced of New age concepts. According to Johnston we are to leave all attachments to God and experience God in the unknown. Johnston means Jesus died on the cross so we can find God within ourselves. It's not about Jesus taking the sins of the world on himself, but so we become one with God, or actually be God. He says we have to leave all concepts/images of God to know God.

Here are some quotes from him:

"Contemplation removes the "roots" of sin."

"The aim of contemplation is, then, to return to the state of original justice, before sin, all the faculties of man were united and fixed on God in perfect union with Him"

"And not only is God the being of all things, He is also our being."


The mysticism of the cloud of unknowing - William Johnston"

"What to check when people are mystics is what meaning they put in the cross. Do they say Jesus bore our sins? And what do they mean when they say sin. A friend of mine who is a mystic means sin is the same as suffering. You see how wrong this can get?

Mystics generally talks more about our transformation than the person of Jesus. Sin seems to be the state of man, which will be conquered by a new state attained by spiritual practice. It's has not much to do with the cross.

Johnston says we are to let go of all attachments, but we Christians should be very attached to Jesus Christ. It's through the love of the person of Jesus we can be less attached to all the hassel in this world."

Yes, as you say it will be different from one writer to the next. From my own point of view, thinking rightly about God is an important part of christian spirituality, and I get that from someone who was a sort of mystic himself A.W. Tozer (Knowledge of the Holy). I don't find the idea of detachment the way some of these mystics express it all that helpful to be honest.

I made a post about christian spirituality and its different poles, on this Website last year sometime. When I get some time I'll look it up and post a link.
 
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Dave-W

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The supernatural power of God has nothing to do with mysticism from my understanding.
Mysticism = anything beyond the natural order of things. aka the laws of nature.
 
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dms1972

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Mysticism = anything beyond the natural order of things. aka the laws of nature.

Actually no, that is not what mysticism is. You are thinking of the supernatural, and that is a bit different from mysticism, though not unrelated. Mysticism as the word suggests has to do with mystery, or preserving mystery. Mysticism has several aspects including detachment from things, and a journey of spiritual ascent to God. They resist attempts to define God in theological categories, and prefer to let God be the great unknown.
 
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Phronema

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Personally I think @HTacianas has hit the nail on the head. It boils down to your stance on the process of Theosis/Divinization. I'd add 2 Peter 1:4 also states that we can become partakers of the divine nature.

Plus all of the miracles we read about the Apostles performing in the Book of Acts would lend credence to this idea as well. Beyond that the essences-energies distinction discourses between Barlaam, and St. Gregory Palamas could be helpful as well.

I can see how this would be a bit of a hurdle for a western Christian in that the idea of Christianity having mystical elements ceased in the west around the time of Thomas Aquinas. I mean no offense by saying that, but I think it's worth mentioning that it's an idea that used to exist in the west in some form as well.
 
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Phronema

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Of course I'm now curious to get this book.

Let me add one thing if I could please regarding The Ladder of Divine Ascent by St. John Climacus.

It is an outstanding book, but I think it's important to note that it was written BY an ascetic FOR ascetics around 600 A.D. Which means that reading it without proper guidance, or context can cause an assortment of problems, or misinterpretations. That said I'd like to mention a book written by Archimandrite Vassilios Papavassiliou who breaks down The Ladder of Divine Ascent in a way that those of us who are not monks, and do not have the same guidance can understand by relating it to a modern world/context. Also, he talks about direct quotes from the Ladder as well. He certainly doesn't alter the original message.

I highly recommend it if you're curious about The Ladder of Divine Ascent. Pay no mind to the cheesy book title it's actually very useful.

https://www.amazon.com/Thirty-Steps-Heaven-Vassilios-Papavassiliou/dp/1936270897
 
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DennisTate

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I had that opinion for a few decades. Then a close pastor friend of mine told me that I was a christian mystic. I got kinda mad at him for a bit, but he explained that being a mystic was NOT something evil or satanic.

Being raised pentecostal /charismatic I believe that God does intervene in our world today and that He still speaks to us individually, and not JUST thru the words printed in the bible. That is the definition of Christian mysticism.


Would you say that the visionary dreams given to Pastor Rick Joyner would make him at least somewhat Christian Mystic?

For the record I think that his books are brilliant and help me to understand the Bible more clearly. So.... maybe I am a Christian Mystic too?!

 
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Moses Medina

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I have nothing of meaning to really contribute except to say that,

Ladder of Divine Ascent was a very good book, a great aid to assist all Christians in the process of killing our passions and selfishness (the old Adam as the western Christianity would say)
 
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Beanieboy

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Yes that's the sort of thing I think of when I hear the words "Christian Mysticism", plain weird and something to stay away from.

I think my relationship with God has always been mystical in the sense that each of us is an expression of God, and we are one with God. So, "asking Jesus into your heart" is more acknowledging that fact.

Unfortunately, my grandma's church was more like Jack Chick comics, with you always fearing hell, and so, like many other Christians, asked Jesus into my heart at least 3 times - you know, just in case I wasn't sincere enough, or Jesus was busy and didn't hear me.

After being baptized in the Spirit, and speaking in tongues, you understand that God is within each of us always. When Christ says, "as you have done for even the least of these, you have done so to me," and that we cannot love God but hate our brother, because in loving our neighbor, we are loving God.

When people hear "I am God," they hear "I'm God and you aren't. Adore me with macaroni pictures." Or they hear "I'm God, just like Lucifer wants to be."

What I hear is, I am an expression of God, as you are. So what is meant by namaste, the God within me bows to the God within you, and if you are humbling yourself before others as you would Jesus, as Jesus humbled himself to others, it's very easy to help those who are in need, etc. And you come to understand that we are all one body, so helping you helps me, harming you harms me.

So I've never understood people who pray, "God? Are you there? Are you listening?" I imagine God giving breath to Adam as God breathing Himself into Adam, and think of God as integrated like He were each breath, His voice that conscience that ways on you.

But ironically, soon after receiving tongues and being all Jesus crazy, the people I encountered with the most resistance? Other Christians, claiming tongues to be a false doctrine of the devil, that I shouldn't use tongues unless an interpreter is present,quoting this verse or that verse...

To this day, I don'tunderstand people who will consult the bible, but refuse to pray to God and listen for the answer, with a "why should I? I know I'm right."

It's forgivable, but taught me then that some Christians are more concerned in being right, and having the bible speak what they believe, rather than follow Christ. And the fact that they down play loving your neighbor, and replacing it with obeying rules makes me wonder why they choose Christianity, if that, and loving God, are the two commandments that fulfill all if the law.
 
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Noxot

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To say Christian mystics are evil is like jews calling their prophets evil. The only difference is mystics tend to be more servile and prophets usually have some strong concern over God's people. The two terms bleed into one another. And it is very proper for the religious to often condemn those near to God.

But some of you are fine with calling cold hearted people "saints". If anything some of the problems of those wanting to know God more debase themselves too much which is why you get religious authorities testing God from their sordid hearts and saints cleaning up a closet of spiders and webs with her mouth. Or you get a saint to walk bearfooted too long cause of some authoritarian in the church telling him off. Thus bloody feet and pain. Shows you just how much love some have for the elect.
 
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Noxot

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I have read William Johnston who was a jesuit mystic, and listened to on youtube to a benedictine mystic David Steindl Rast. Also I know about Merton and a few others.

As someone pointed out there is variety what we mean by mysticism. W Johnston descrices how we leave all forms of God to know God within ourselves. He uses a language that may confuse those who aren't experienced of New age concepts. According to Johnston we are to leave all attachments to God and experience God in the unknown. Johnston means Jesus died on the cross so we can find God within ourselves. It's not about Jesus taking the sins of the world on himself, but so we become one with God, or actually be God. He says we have to leave all concepts/images of God to know God.

Here are some quotes from him:

"Contemplation removes the "roots" of sin."

"The aim of contemplation is, then, to return to the state of original justice, before sin, all the faculties of man were united and fixed on God in perfect union with Him"

"And not only is God the being of all things, He is also our being."


The mysticism of the cloud of unknowing - William Johnston
You must also find fault with paul when he said christ is the firstborn of us all or how Jesus said he will be in us and us in him, he in the father and the father in him.

We can't exist without God and yet you want us to forsake the only spring of life that exist. Sin is a falling away from God, from existence itself. A return to God is the fullness of life. We can only find our real selves by nearness to God, how could that be wrong? Is not God our maker? Yet he calls us his wife.

Salvation is ontological, not legalistic.
 
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zoidar

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You must also find fault with paul when he said christ is the firstborn of us all or how Jesus said he will be in us and us in him, he in the father and the father in him.

We can't exist without God and yet you want us to forsake the only spring of life that exist. Sin is a falling away from God, from existence itself. A return to God is the fullness of life. We can only find our real selves by nearness to God, how could that be wrong? Is not God our maker? Yet he calls us his wife.

Salvation is ontological, not legalistic.

Just be sure that it's the Christian God we are returning to. There are many "christs" and many "gods".

Sin is breaking God's commandments. It has nothing to do with falling away from existence.
 
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